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'Praying' To the Saints

Is seeking a saints prayers unacceptable?


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Nereus

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Cardinal John Henry Newman wrote, hopefully in sarcasm borne out of frustration, that to be historical is to cease to be Protestant. Perhaps this is made evident through the blind acceptance of elements of popular theology, or the dogmatization of the Higher Critical theories that devalue much that had previously been considered Sacred. On the other hand, if we assume ignorance of another’s faith is not a prerequisite to Protestantism, and then it must be asked why it is so common. Ignorance of Catholicism in particular is extremely common, so much, that often the Protestant will differentiate between Christians and Catholics. Out of ignorance this is done at best, or out of dishonesty stemming from insecurity at worst. I shall assume that the majority of cases is mere ignorance, and it is to the ignorant whom I now speak, for the dishonest have no interest in broadening their comprehension.

The practice of praying to the saints has been one of the most misunderstood concepts in Protestantism’s attack on those who date their history back to the Apostles. Praying to the Saints leads to some confusion, for the way it is used can be misleading. Catholics use the term in defense and Protestants in attack, but one must ascertain what exactly is meant before they are able to evaluate such a practice. Once this is done, it becomes exceedingly obvious that though the same term is used, different meanings are attached to it.
Catholic teaching does not allow members to either suppose or request anything from the saints in themselves. Saints have nothing to grant by their own power, but the Catholic Church teaches that the saints can offer their prayers for us. The Catholic Church also teaches that individuals can ask the saints to intercede for them, and through their own prayers, bring individuals requests to God.
Were Protestant accusations true, and if Catholics truly believed that the saints could grant our requests and only God can, then this would be a most unbiblical teaching. Paul writes to Timothy “there is one mediator between God and humankind, Jesus Christ...” (I Timothy 2:5). Both Catholics and Protestants affirm this, but because Protestantism believes it understands Catholicism better than Catholics do, they often cite the Catholics who ask the saints for prayers as being in violation with the words of Paul. Is this accusation legitimate?

The answer is No. Clearly Protestants do not believe that intercessory prayer is in violation with the words of Paul, for they often ask fellow believers to pray for their prayer requests. What look of shock they would give upon approaching someone with a legitimate request, if they were turned down and accused of setting up mediators other than Jesus. Yet though Protestants employ intercessory prayer, they then criticize it when they hear of Catholics asking the saints in heaven for prayer.

After getting past this final example of Protestant selectivism, it is worthy to differentiate between asking those alive for prayers, and asking those who have died for prayers. Both sides agree that to ask the living for prayer is appropriate, but Protestantism has distanced themselves from Rome’s practice asking the departed also for prayers. But when the Protestant Church recites the Apostles Creed, do they not realize the meaning of the words, ‘I believe in the communion of saints.’ Perhaps it is only members of the Catholic Church, which composed this prayer, who do realize the significance. The communion of the saints speaks of the believers who inhabit the earth. We believe that these believers can help each other, particularly by praying for each other. The Catholic Church calls these believers the ‘Church Militant,’ because it is these who are fighting the battle of life while placing their faith in the One who died to save them. But the communion of saints also speaks of the saints in heaven; those who have gained salvation by placing their faith in Jesus Christ. Because such a community refers to both those who are alive in Christ, and those who have died in his friendship, the Catholic Church does not view them as separate communities. Together they are the body of Christ. Why assume that those who pray for others while they are alive, will cease to do so after the have entered Heaven? Would it not be more reasonable to assume that once in heaven, and being more aware of the spiritual needs of those on earth, that the departed individual will more fervently pray? Jerome, long ago wrote, “If the apostles and martyrs while still in the flesh, and still needing to care for themselves, can pray for others, how much more will they after they have won their crowns, victories and triumphs? When they are with Christ, will they be less powerful?” (Adv. Vigil, 6).

Once it has been established that no dishonor is meant to God by asking the saints for prayer, the necessity of such an action is often questioned. Because no documentation can be offered against asking the saints for prayer, so do question is purpose. Many Protestants ask: Why request the prayers of saints, when God can already hear your request? Why not go straight to God, they ask, affirming that such a mediator is not needed (though the more appropriate term is intercessor). If asked in honesty, these are appropriate questions, but if they pose merely a last ditch attempt to show why Catholics are wrong, then the inconsistency of such questions can easily be made evident. The problems with such questions are that they both could be asked when an individual even asks a fellow believer for prayer. The questions remain worthy of examination, but are invalidated in this present case as a reason for not praying to the saints.

Lastly, and contrary to those who believe being anti-Catholic is honoring to God, Catholics do not only pray to the saints. The times that intercession is sought after, Christ is always the center of such prayers. One of the more famous intercessory prayers Hail Mary (Hail is an archaic word and does not denote worship to a particular deity) has Catholics clearly showing that they are asking nothing of Mary except for her prayers, for they say ‘pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.’ Also the fact that Catholics clearly identify who the focus of their devotion is for in the same prayer, speaking to Mary, they say, ‘blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.’

The days of anathematizing all who disagree with the Catholic Church are in the past. Though we may feel that Protestants reasons for disagreeing with us on various issues are groundless, we nonetheless understand that devotion to Christ is the most important concern, and because evangelical Protestants are strongly supportive of this, we proudly identify with them, and consider them as part of the body of Christ. Where we differ, we feel a tinge of sympathy for we feel that they are missing out on a more mature faith. Always, however, understanding is requested from Protestants who disagree. When they wish to differ, that is their choice to make. At least with regards to praying to the saints they will now have the knowledge needed to make an intelligent decision, and will not have to fall back on the anti-Catholic propaganda that is so common in many circles of Protestant thought.

Kelly J. Wilson
 
Much will depend on what a person believes a Saint to be.

If we are to take the Roman Catholic interpretation, then YES, seeking the prayers of the saints IS wrong--for this is to pray to the dead!

If we are to take the Bible's meaning of the word "Saint" then NO it is not wrong as Saints are alive, Saints are simply other believers and we can ask any believer to pray for us.
 
hmmm... 1200+ words and not a single Bible verse!!! It MUST be a Roman Catholic polemic!

Question While practicing the Catholic faith, I used to pray to the saints, as do my family and Catholic friends. Who answered the prayers I got answered and who is still answering my friends’ prayers as they still have their favorite saint who never fails them?

Answer It is extremely dangerous to establish doctrine on the basis of subjective human experience rather than the Word of God. If you pray to the saints and you get some sort of answer, you would wrongly conclude that praying to the saints must be fine. But surely you realize that there may be other causes for ‘the answer’ other than the dead saint hearing your prayers. The pagans pray to a multitude of false deities and they too get 'answers'! Should we then conclude that their pagan gods are real and that they too answer prayers?

Let me give you a couple of examples from the Bible to expose this danger. In Acts 14:8-18 Paul and Barnabas went to Lystra. After Paul miraculously cured a lame man, the people wanted to offer sacrifices to Paul and Barnabas because they thought that they were the gods Hermes and Zeus. It was with great difficulty that the apostles restrained the crowd from sacrificing, telling them to turn from their ‘worthless things’ to the living God who was the source of all their blessings. God “has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons; he provides you with plenty of food and fills your hearts with joy.†Clearly the people of Lystra wrongly attributed the goodness of God to their false deities. Sadly, this tragic mistake is repeated throughout human history and, despite the evidence pointing to the Lord, many continue in their false religions and attribute these very gifts to false gods.

Jeremiah 44:16-18 is an even more dramatic example of this sad reality. The prophet Jeremiah was preaching to the people of Israel and warning them of the coming judgment from God because of their idolatrous practices. This is how they argued with him:

As for the word that you have spoken to us in the name of the LORD, we will not listen to you! But we will certainly do whatever has gone out of our own mouth, to burn incense to the queen of heaven and pour out drink offerings to her, as we have done, we and our fathers, our kings and our princes, in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. For then we had plenty of food, were well-off, and saw no trouble. But since we stopped burning incense to the queen of heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have lacked everything and have been consumed by the sword and by famine.

They were praying to a pagan deity named the Queen of Heaven instead of praying to the Lord God, claiming that when they prayed to her they received all their needs, plenty of food and protection and so on. We know exactly who gave them the food and the protection but they ascribed them to a false god. Even worse, instead of repenting of their sins in the face of the Lord’s chastisement, they reasoned that they got into trouble because they stopped praying to this Queen of Heaven! The deception is astounding!

This is exactly what happens when someone rejects the revealed truth of God. The people of Lystra rejected the truth of God revealed in creation. The Israelites rejected the truth of God given through the prophets and the Scriptures. Both were pitifully mistaken in their interpretation of their religious experiences.

We have God’s truth both in nature and in the written Scriptures. As a Catholic you have heard the Bible read in Church many times. You noticed that the prayers of godly people were always addressed to God and that there is not a single example of Christians praying to dead saints in all of the Bible. You also know that when the disciples asked Jesus to teach them to pray, He taught us to address our prayers to “Our Father in Heaven.â€Â

You know these truths and therefore you are responsible to act accordingly. If you choose to ignore these simple facts and persist with the habit of praying to dead saints, then there is nothing to stop you from being deceived like the pagans and the Jews of old.

I implore you to turn away from this pagan practice and instead seek the face of God. “If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land†(2 Chronicles 7:14).

Source: http://www.justforcatholics.org/a125.htm
 
Praying to the Saints: alleged proof texts

Question: The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. In Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Psalm 148:1-2).

In the book of Revelation, John sees that “the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints†(Revelation 5:8). Also we read that " another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel’s hand." (Revelation 8:3,4). We see that those in heaven, angels and humans, pray for us.

Answer: The above quotations are the closest attempts by Roman Catholic apologists to give biblical support to the tradition of invoking dead saints. However, if we carefully look at those scriptures, we quickly discover that they do not support this practice at all.

The psalmist expresses his desire that the angels and all creation praise the Lord:

Praise the LORD! Praise the LORD from the heavens; praise Him in the heights! Praise Him, all His angels; praise Him, all His hosts! Praise Him, sun and moon; praise Him, all you stars of light! Praise Him, you heavens of heavens, and you waters above the heavens! (Psalm 148:1-4).

The psalmist addresses the heavens, the waters, the beasts, the birds, the fire and the snow, and all the people of the earth to praise God. Are we to conclude that this psalm teaches us to invoke the angels? We might as well say that we should be praying to the sun and the moon and the stars!

In the book of Revelation we read about the saints (Christians) on earth praying to God. The incense that is offered to God by the angel and the elders symbolizes their prayers.

It must be emphasized that the incense represents the prayers of the saints – that is, the prayers of Christians on earth. Twice we are told that the incense is 'the prayers of the saints.' Therefore the incense does not represent the intercessory prayers of the angel or the elders in heaven. Moreover, these prayers were addressed to God, and not to the elders in heaven or to the angel, for the incense ascended up before God. The saints on earth were praying to God; they were not asking the angels or saints in heaven to pray for them.

Clearly these passages do not teach us to pray to departed saints or angels, nor that they are interceding for us. If anyone desires to learn from the Bible about prayer, he would be in no doubt to whom he should address his prayers.

From the dawn of human existence, when men begun to call upon the name of the Lord (Genesis 4:26), to the last prayer recorded in the Bible (Revelation 22:20), the consistent example of all God’s people was to address their prayers to the Lord. Jesus teaches us by His example to pray to God (Luke 6:12). Jesus also teaches us to address our prayers to 'our Father in heaven.' The apostles and the disciples prayed to the Lord. We are taught to pray 'for' (not 'to') all saints, that is, we should pray for the needs of the living Christians on earth (Ephesians 6:18).

Communication with the dead is the practice of pagan religions and the occult, and not the Judeo-Christian faith as recorded in the Bible. The prophet Isaiah tells us:

And when they say to you, “Seek those who are mediums and wizards, who whisper and mutter,†should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living? To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Whoever teaches that we should "seek the dead on behalf of the living" is in darkness and degrades the Christian faith to the level of the occult and superstition. I appeal to you in the name of the Lord to repent from this pagan practice, and to embrace the truth of the Bible about prayer, and call upon the name of the Lord for your salvation and for every other need.

Source: http://www.justforcatholics.org/a137.htm

:)
 
Evanman,

I already identified what the Roman interpretation of the term 'saint' was. Did you really misunderstand, or are you allowing you presuppositions to dominate your decisions. Honest, intellectual debate has little room for those who enter with the assumption that where Protestantism and Catholicism differ, Catholicism must be wrong. Objectivity is a prerequisite and after decisions have been made, m0an ability to defend them is essential. You have done neither.
The Roman interpretation that you speak of is an interpretation that if understood could be agreed on by Protestants as well. As stated in my opening post, 'saints' speak of both the 'Church Militant,' namely the believers on earth fighting for Christ. But it also speaks of the 'Church Triumphant,' who are those who have died in the friendship of Christ. You, along with both Protestants and Catholics assert that for believers to request the prayers of fellow believer is most appropriate. Yet Catholics believe that it is also acceptable to request the prayers of believers in heaven. They only reason given in criticism to this is that it is wrong to 'pray to the dead.' This is a misunderstanding of Catholic teaching, that the sooner one gets past, the better.
You close by saying that 'Saints are simply other believers and we can ask any believer to pray for us.' I agree, but your definition is not consistent with your conclusion that to request the prayers of saints in heaven is wrong. Those in heaven are also believers, and being in their Creator's presence, would it not be reasonable to assume that they are more aware of the spiritual needs of those on earth then when they were on earth. The answer is an affirmative, but why then assume that though they prayed for others while on earth, they will not cease to do so after entering heaven? 'Because they are dead?' some respond. Do you really think these believers are dead?

Kelly J. Wilson

To Gary Bee,

It would do you well to keep your anti-Catholic comments to yourself. I am sure you will comply once you realize that such comments speak more of your own awareness of the issues, than of the issues themselves. The issues you identify, when practiced are unbiblical. But though you, and your Catholic friends, misunderstand Catholic teaching, then the conclusions you draw from such can hardly be considered relevant to the particular criticisms that you have. TO view an abuse of a practice, and then criticize the practice is not terribly honest. One must attack the abuse, and in doing so, hopefully restore the practice to its rightful place.
Catholic teaching does not allow its members to pray to the saints, as they would to God, for the saints have nothing to give. As I explained in the Opening Post, Catholics do believe that they can request the prayers of believers around them, as well as the believers in heaven. It is a misunderstanding to suggest that the saints in heaven are 'dead.' Such a claim may offend the Creator of All, yet when Christians ask the saints in heaven for prayer; often others accuse them of praying to the dead.
Finally your second post is not relevant to the claims made in my post. If you reread my post, with a degree of objectivity, the inescapable conclusion is that seeking the prayers of those in heaven is not as heretical as you once thought, for it is not meant to be any different then asking a fellow believer for prayer.

Kelly J. Wilson
 
... another 1000 words and STILL no Biblical reference..... how very Roman Catholic of you!

:roll:

You said:
...The Catholic Church also teaches that individuals can ask the saints to intercede for them, and through their own prayers, bring individuals requests to God."

Please explain. Exactly how do you "ask saints to intercede for them"?

If you mother/father has passed away, exactly how do you "ask" them to intercede for you? Please reference Bible chapter/verse to support your argument.

Thanks.
 
Nereus said:
The answer is No. Clearly Protestants do not believe that intercessory prayer is in violation with the words of Paul, for they often ask fellow believers to pray for their prayer requests. What look of shock they would give upon approaching someone with a legitimate request, if they were turned down and accused of setting up mediators other than Jesus. Yet though Protestants employ intercessory prayer, they then criticize it when they hear of Catholics asking the saints in heaven for prayer.

First, let’s look at terminology and definitions. The Catholic Encyclopedia defines prayer as “An act of the virtue of religion which consists in asking proper gifts or graces from God.†God is the key word in this definition. In the section entitled “To whom may we pray" it is revealed that, â€Â“Although God the Father is mentioned in this prayer as the one to whom we are to pray, it is not out of place to address our prayers to the other Divine persons.†I, and most other Protestants, agree with this definition of prayer.

However, the Catholic Church doesn’t even seem to use its own definitions, since it classifies the Hail Mary (and I’m assuming other requests addressed to dead saints) as a prayer. I have made requests in the past to have my friends pray for me; however I never have called such a request a prayer, since it is not. My friends communicate with God, and thus pray for me. I communicate to my friends, not God and thus I’m not praying. Asking dead saints to pray for us may not be wrong, but labeling such requests as prayers is wrong.

After getting past this final example of Protestant selectivism, it is worthy to differentiate between asking those alive for prayers, and asking those who have died for prayers. Both sides agree that to ask the living for prayer is appropriate, but Protestantism has distanced themselves from Rome’s practice asking the departed also for prayers. But when the Protestant Church recites the Apostles Creed, do they not realize the meaning of the words, ‘I believe in the communion of saints.’ Perhaps it is only members of the Catholic Church, which composed this prayer, who do realize the significance. The communion of the saints speaks of the believers who inhabit the earth. We believe that these believers can help each other, particularly by praying for each other. The Catholic Church calls these believers the ‘Church Militant,’ because it is these who are fighting the battle of life while placing their faith in the One who died to save them. But the communion of saints also speaks of the saints in heaven; those who have gained salvation by placing their faith in Jesus Christ. Because such a community refers to both those who are alive in Christ, and those who have died in his friendship, the Catholic Church does not view them as separate communities. Together they are the body of Christ. Why assume that those who pray for others while they are alive, will cease to do so after the have entered Heaven? Would it not be more reasonable to assume that once in heaven, and being more aware of the spiritual needs of those on earth, that the departed individual will more fervently pray? Jerome, long ago wrote, “If the apostles and martyrs while still in the flesh, and still needing to care for themselves, can pray for others, how much more will they after they have won their crowns, victories and triumphs? When they are with Christ, will they be less powerful?†(Adv. Vigil, 6).
I think I agree with all this. I do think it is reasonable to believe that those in heaven are continuing to pray. However, I think it is unreasonable to believe that we can communicate with these saints by “praying†to them. After all, if I wanted you to pray for me, I would have to either speak or write my request to you. I could not go in my room and simply say “Kelly J. Wilson, please pray for this sinner†and expect you to hear my request. If such a method does not work when you are living, why will it work when you are dead? We do not become God when we die-- we cannot be everywhere, hear everything, or know everything.

Given the dual facts that a request to a deceased saint isn’t really prayer, and that there is no reason to believe the saint hears the request, such activities seem like a waste of effort to me. However, if the Catholic is clear in his heart that he is requesting a prayer from, and not praying to, a saint, then I see nothing sinful with the practice.
 
There is to be NO attempt made by us, or anyone, to contact the spirits of those who are dead in Christ!

King Saul was cursed of God for attempting to make contact with dead Samuel!

We have only ONE mediator in Heaven--the Lord Jesus Christ
1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

It is because of this that you will never find requests and prayers addressed to anyone other than God and/or JesusChrist himself in the entire Bible!

I am afraid that you have been misinformed by false apostles and false teachers. We are NOT to attempt to contact the spirits of the dead in Christ!
 
Praying to the saints, nay, even asking the saints to pray for us is setting folks up for serious Satanic deception. When Satan has caused us to believe the lie "You shall not surely die", we have spiritualism, seances, communicating with the dead and now, veneration and intercessory of saints. It's all part of the same manure pile, and one in which Christianity should be distancing itself from, not holding it closer.

Why can't my dead grandmother visit me and give me a message from God? Why not Mary the mother of Jesus? Do you see the potential for deception here, folks? If you can believe one part, then the other parts are just as logical to be true.

When we understand that man is wholistic and awaits resurrection as the Bible teaches but does not have an immortal soul, we see that ALL of these embodiments, visions, and ghosts are nothing more than Satanic influence and a deceptive strategy.
 
Nereus said:
Cardinal John Henry Newman wrote, hopefully in sarcasm borne out of frustration, that to be historical is to cease to be Protestant.

Unfortunately, it seems that too many suppose this means Roman Catholicism must be right and forget that just perhaps "to be historical is to cease to be Roman Catholic or Orthodox or Protestant."
 
I reject comnpletely the Romish dogma concerning communicating with the spirits of the dead in Christ. Yes, they ARE dead in fact. They have yet to be ressurrected!

Saul attempted to communicate with the spirit of Samuel--an Old Testament saint, and was judged by God for this sin!
 
Praying to the dead Saints is to consider they hold some equality to God Himself. Why? Because one who prays to them assumes for one that they can hear them and two that they can hear all prays by those who pray to them at once. This would make them all knowing, an attribute of God.

It seems to me to be on along the same line as mormons believing one day they too can become a god.
 
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