Pre-Trib Rapture

[Edward]

There's been a lot of discussion about the rapture, whether pre, mid or post tribulation. I was pretty solidly pre trib for a long time, but those no pre-trib rapture Brothers and Sisters make a good case for no pre-trib rapture so the last year or so, I've been on the fence about it and just think about it sometimes but have generally back burnered it and went on to other things to study.

But ever once in awhile I come to it or hear something new or wotnot. Lately, other scriptures have been popping out at me that while unrelated, is still rather relevant to the rapture issue. Like how during the tribulation period, multitudes will come to the Lord.

If there was a ptr-trib rapture, then all that would be left is, the unbelievers and the lukewarm ones. Who's going to bring them to the Lord? If all the good Christians are gone, how could multitudes come to the Lord? They couldn't. I don't think there could be a pre-trib rapture and still have multitudes come to the Lord. Besides, we're promised persecution and tribulation. All the Christians all down through time, since the beginning of the world pretty much, have been persecuted. What makes us think we're so special that we could get out of it? We're no better than they.

Lately I've been reading a lot about what Christians will be doing in the end times for the Lord. It's a lot. There will be signs and wonders like never before seen here on planet earth in the end times. The Lord is doing a mighty work in the church and will continue to. There's just too much that's going to be going on for to think that the Church will not be there! I don't know if there will be a mid-trib or a post -tribrapture, but I now feel certain that it couldn't be pre-trib.

 

[Eugene]

There's been a lot of discussion about the rapture, whether pre, mid or post tribulation. I was pretty solidly pre trib for a long time, but those no pre-trib rapture Brothers and Sisters make a good case for no pre-trib rapture

Dear Brother Edward, I’ll just point you to Rev 4:1, that future time Jesus receives His own throne in rev 4:2. In Rev 4:1 John is told to come up to heaven future and see and write of the Revelation of Jesus. In that verse we read “Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.”

Hereafter from when? The Lord’s Day? When does the Day of the Lord begin? Was this at the beginning of Jesus’ thousand year reign? In Rev 4:4 and Rev 4:6 are there saints of God present in heaven prior to the tribulation even beginning?
Later we see other elect described as the Great Multitude taken out of great tribulation in Rev 7:9 & Rev 7:14-15. Surely these different ones were not caught up at the same time were they? I watch and read along the different answers you receive.

 

[Brother Mike]

Dear Brother Edward, I’ll just point you to Rev 4:1, that future time Jesus receives His own throne in rev 4:2. In Rev 4:1 John is told to come up to heaven future and see and write of the Revelation of Jesus. In that verse we read “Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.”

Hereafter from when? The Lord’s Day? When does the Day of the Lord begin? Was this at the beginning of Jesus’ thousand year reign? In Rev 4:4 and Rev 4:6 are there saints of God present in heaven prior to the tribulation even beginning?
Later we see other elect described as the Great Multitude taken out of great tribulation in Rev 7:9 & Rev 7:14-15. Surely these different ones were not caught up at the same time were they? I watch and read along the different answers you receive.

If the Day of the Lord has a significance and it does seem tied to the last seal, then the Day of Christ (Day of the Anointed) would also means something.

There's been a lot of discussion about the rapture, whether pre, mid or post tribulation. I was pretty solidly pre trib for a long time, but those no pre-trib rapture Brothers and Sisters make a good case for no pre-trib rapture so the last year or so, I've been on the fence about it and just think about it sometimes but have generally back burnered it and went on to other things to study.

But ever once in awhile I come to it or hear something new or wotnot. Lately, other scriptures have been popping out at me that while unrelated, is still rather relevant to the rapture issue. Like how during the tribulation period, multitudes will come to the Lord.

If there was a ptr-trib rapture, then all that would be left is, the unbelievers and the lukewarm ones. Who's going to bring them to the Lord? If all the good Christians are gone, how could multitudes come to the Lord? They couldn't. I don't think there could be a pre-trib rapture and still have multitudes come to the Lord. Besides, we're promised persecution and tribulation. All the Christians all down through time, since the beginning of the world pretty much, have been persecuted. What makes us think we're so special that we could get out of it? We're no better than they.

Lately I've been reading a lot about what Christians will be doing in the end times for the Lord. It's a lot. There will be signs and wonders like never before seen here on planet earth in the end times. The Lord is doing a mighty work in the church and will continue to. There's just too much that's going to be going on for to think that the Church will not be there! I don't know if there will be a mid-trib or a post -tribrapture, but I now feel certain that it couldn't be pre-trib.

There is no gospel mentioned being Preached during the tribulation Edward but by one angle. If you read what happens, Paul gives us an outline after the Son of Perdition is revealed.

2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Also during the Tribulation, who is causing all the Havoc?

Rev_9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

Rev_16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Rev_16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Notice Edward that nothing is mentioned that they heard the gospel which causes faith to be saved yet repented not. NO, the witness of God at the end is destruction and pain. That is the message. Notice they are not upset at Satan or anything written about folks being concerned about what Satan is doing?

Nobody left to save:
And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
(Rev 11:9-10)

When they kill God's Two wittiness, everyone on Earth rejoices. Nobody seems to be left rooting for God here.

Protection. Do we suffer?
For us to be killed and taken away, God will have to break his Word to those that believe and know what the Scripture say.

And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.
(2Th 3:2-3)

No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.
(Isa 54:17)

Luk_10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Psa_34:19 Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all.

Of course you might get a choice to go this route.
Heb 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

 

[Corn Pop]

The kingdom of God cometh not with observation, neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

I was going to add ' the rapture the nigh' after 'see here and see there' but i didn't want to tamper with Jesus words.

 

[civilwarbuff]

If there was a ptr-trib rapture, then all that would be left is, the unbelievers and the lukewarm ones. Who's going to bring them to the Lord? If all the good Christians are gone, how could multitudes come to the Lord? They couldn't. I don't think there could be a pre-trib rapture and still have multitudes come to the Lord. Besides, we're promised persecution and tribulation. All the Christians all down through time, since the beginning of the world pretty much, have been persecuted. What makes us think we're so special that we could get out of it? We're no better than they.

As I pointed out in another thread if there is a pre-trib rapture the churches will be overflowing the very next day. There are plenty of people 'educated' in the ways of Christianity who have simply never committed themselves; teachers will abound though all believers at this point will have missed the last free train to heaven. At this point perseverence of the saints will lead to surviving the most horrible time in human history or death.

 

[JLB]

but I now feel certain that it couldn't be pre-trib.

Amen bro.

Three main things occur at the coming of the lord.

First - the resurrection of the dead in Christ.
Second - The rapture of those who are alive and remain.
Third - when His people are gathered together with Him in the air; the destruction of the false messiah.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

This scripture shows us at His coming, the dead in Christ rise first, then we who are alive and remain are caught up together with them.

This scripture shows us that the resurrection/rapture is one event that takes place simultaneously, in which all His people who are have died and are in heaven, together with those who are alive and remain on earth will be caught up together, to be with the Lord.


This same event, also results in the destruction of the false messiah.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8



JLB

 

[Nathan]

Edward, your story sounds a lot like mine. Raised in from birth, and taught as an adult about the pre-trib rapture. I completely believed it.

One day I was talking with my grandmother. The rapture came up. We talked back and forth, it was a very non confrontational talk as I respect her greatly and she has the single most genuine heart toward God that I have ever seen.

She simply asked me two read a couple different passages. I did. She asked, "you don't see that?" I said no, I don't. Then she asked me to read again, and I did.

She didn't try to convince me of anything. I'm not sure how it happened but all of a sudden I saw it. Clear as day. It was one of those things you never forget.

I still didn't comprehend it mentally because I had been taught the other way for so long. So it took me a long time before I truly understood there was no "pre-trib" rapture. For a long time I would hear a good argument for it and it made me wonder. But each time that happened, after studying the passages they used, I always came up with understanding it was not true. Now, when I hear about it, there is no longer any doubt. I have heard every argument for it, but none hold water in my heart.

The crazy thing is no one taught me this. It came 100% from that one time my grandmother sincerely asked me to read those passages. I'll list them in a bit. I'm kind of busy right now, but saw this and wanted to take a min to share.

 

[JLB]

To me, this is that passage.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:17

All His people, both in heaven and on earth will be caught up together with the Lord forever... at His coming.


JLB

 

[Nathan]

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,
2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.


Crazy thing is, Paul wrote this specifically because there was some false teaching going on about Christs return. I'd give some commentary on this, but it is not needed.

 

[Elisha]

Like how during the tribulation period, multitudes will come to the Lord.

The Bible says nothing about people being saved during the Tribulation. Pretribbers invited the doctrine of mass conversion in the tribulation (and, they even claim it's without the Holy Spirit or other Christians to lead them!).

Besides, we're promised persecution and tribulation. All the Christians all down through time, since the beginning of the world pretty much, have been persecuted. What makes us think we're so special that we could get out of it? We're no better than they.

The Bible tells Christians that they'll be persecuted during the tribulation. This is one reason pretribbers invent mass conversion, to explain the presence of Christians who'll be persecuted.

There is no verse in the Bible that says there will be a Rapture before the Tribulation. Nothing even close.

 

[Corn Pop]

There is nothing at all in scripture that points to a physical rapture.

Where the Spirit of God is there is Liberty. Thats the rapture. Its in the mind of the believer.