Preterist?Pantelist Heresy

[Michael Burke]

There's been a revival of preterism, and some are calling the universalist version of this heresy pantelism. For more information, please see http://www.geocities.com/michaelgerardb ... lists.html
Also, for those interested in evidence supporting universal salvation, please see http://www.geocities.com/michaelgerardburke/index.html

 

[Magdalene]

I read your page, and I liked what I read--I myself have been accused of being a preterist, and although I still don't judge things according to the labels men put on certain schools of thought, I don't think any one school of thought is completely right. The only 'right' thought is thought with the mind of Christ.

Many more things that most realize were fulfilled in 70AD--but not all and also, as Ecclesiastes tells us--history is a repeating spiral and the prophesies in the bible serve double duty.

I think the 1000 years (meaning a time of uncertain affinity) is going to begin in our immediate future, probably less than a decade from now, but there is no way I can see it fulfilled presently. As you said on your site--we can expect God to fulfill completely that which He has promised.

 

[guibox]

I don't fully understand how anyone can't see that the 1000 years don't occur until after Christ's second coming when the world is destroyed and we are in heaven. After the 1000 years, the New Jerusalem descends out of heaven with the saints who Christ took home at His second coming and the dead are raised to attack it.

There is no millenial reign on earth or before Christ comes and it definitely isn't going on right now.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

This is how I look at this;

I am a pre-tribulation card holding member but I also do not see this as being an issue that is salvational so I am more concerned with pointing people to Jesus then my way of thinking. The Body needs to put aside non-salvational issues as they are devisive. Here is my take.....

If the preterists are right, fine, I will see you in heaven.

If I am right, great, see you in the air.

If the mid tribs or post tribs are right, cool, see you at the guillotines.

Regardless we are all going to be with Jesus and then none of this will matter one whip. Not one of us will be saying "I told you so" but will spend our time worshiping the One who had it planned already.

For now I can only say, MARANATHA!!!!!

 

[Magdalene]

The world is not destroyed--we are given a 'new heaven and a new earth' and there is 'no more sea.'

And as far as it not mattering, it does, much more than most realize. Because there are many fundamental errors related to interpretation of prophesy--the biggest danger of which is this: if one is waiting for something that has happened which hardly anyone recognized, it could have catastrophic consequences for that person, and anyone else placing trust in what they say.

 

[guibox]

The world is not destroyed--we are given a 'new heaven and a new earth' and there is 'no more sea.'

A new heaven and a new earth are redundant if the old ones haven't passed away. In Revelation 20, fire comes down from heaven and devours the wicked, annhilating them for eternity.

As 2 Peter 3:10 says, "But the day of the Lord will come as a theif in the night in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat. The earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up"

After this, a new heaven and new earth is created where all will inhabit them. This is after the 1000 year millenial reign in heaven.

 

[Magdalene]

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

'thousand' is Strong's G5507
χίλιοι
chilioi

Plural of uncertain affinity; a thousand: - thousand.

 

[Michael Burke]

Actually, I believe any number of years higher then one would be plural in Greek. For those who might be interested, I've added some new links to my web site. One is to an article by Keith DeRose, a Professor of Philosophy at Yale Universty who agrees with Gregory of Nyssa (for whom Greek was a first language, who presided over the Church council that gaveus the Nicean Creed, and who was considered highly Orthodox.) Prof. DeRose believes the Bible to be the word of God (as did Gregory), but does not believe that hell is endless. If you'd like to read more, please visit http://www.geocities.com/michaelgerardburke/index.html

 

[Magdalene]

The way I understand it (but I'm no scholar of Greek, though--Hebrew is my interest) 7 is seven but 1000 is 'a lot.'

'Hell' is the grave, not the lake of fire, and as such it is not permanent for the soul--all souls must either be redeemed or the spirit which makes it 'life' returns to whence it came (God). The grave is black unknowing nothingless.

 

[City Of God]

Preterism and Futurism are the same at the end of the day. They are both false belief systems sent by the enemy to keep you from finding the truth. A lie is a lie, no matter what wrapping paper you put on the box.

 

[Barabbas]

Greetings City of God,
Does your statement imply that you are a Historicist? I have not read other posts of yours. I went to the site you posted. Nothing happened. It said that it was under construction. I'll try again.
Yol Bolsun.

 

[City Of God]

Barabbas,
I don't really like labels much, any time you create a belief system apart from Jesus Christ the Word of Life there is a danger of creating a false religion so for the most part I try to stick to the Word. But I think the Continuist view is probably closer to the truth than the preterist and futurist views. As far as the website goes, it is mine and I am working on it.

 

[Barabbas]

Hi again City of God,
I'm not familiar with the 'continuing view', unless that may be what I'm calling Historicist. There are so many terms that I cannot follow them anymore.
Yol Bolsun.

 

[City Of God]

Yes,
Continuism is the same as what you are referring to as Historicism. I prefer the former label though, if any be given. It was the title by which Charles Spurgeon referred to this method of interpretation. The reason I prefer the title Continuism is because I think it to be a more correct discription of the school of thought. Historicism implys that everything is in the past "Historic" if you will, this is not a correct understanding concerning this belief though. Continuism/Historicism is the belief that The Revelation of Jesus Christ has been unfolding over the entire age of the Church, from the first coming of Christ until his second coming. So, it contains elements of both preterism and futurism, and ofcoarse its own elements concerning the unfoldings and symbolisms of events which I am sure are somewhat disagreed upon amongst those of this belief.

I am a practitioner of the martial art Jeet Kune Do, which was created by Bruce Lee. Lee taught Martial Artists to "think outside the box" of martial arts systems. Some were following Kung Fu/Gung Fu others Karate, Tang Soo Do, and so forth. Lee taught that we should learn as much as we can from each system and keep what is useful, and so he evented a style which is a blend of different styles and has no borders or bounderies. Biblical interpretation I think should be come at with the same understanding.

 

[Barabbas]

When I became a Christian, the only interpretation I was taught of Revelation was of the Futurist sort. Over the past year, I've begun to teach myself the Continuing/Historicist view. I have no teacher to instruct me, so I just study from the various sites on the internet. This view certainly has a lot to commend it, but I have so many questions. As of now, I consider myself to be more of a pilgrim than any sort of advocate or proponent of the view.
I took a martial arts class called Ish Iyn Ryu several years ago, but I certainly agree with you that one should take the best of what they study and incorporate it. I wish that Jeet Kune Do had been taught in my area.
Yol Bolsun.

 

[Cameron]

Futurism does happen to be the oldest view if you like reading the chuirch fathers for they conrtinually mentioned looking for the future Antichrist and presecution of the church in their writings.

Preterists want us to beleive that the early church leaders were wrong and somehow missed the imporatnace of 70AD.

Besides, a 1000 is used specifically to refer to a thousand in Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6 and Revelation 14:20. For instance, why add the 600 in Revleation 14:20 if you didn't have a specific number in mind. The thing is - preterists (full or partial) appear to hang their hat on Stong's or Thayer's definition rather than its actual usage in the Bible.

My recommendation: Get your understading from the Bible.

Why did John mention "a thousand" six times in a row in Revelation 20? Do you think he might have been trying to make a point? Do the times suggest ambiguous time periods? Study and let's get a good discussion going based on the word's usage.