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Problems with the Documentary Hypothesis

cyberjosh

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I made this thread primarily for wavy's benefit so that we can discuss this very serious issue here. I hold that the documentary hypothesis is a false construct built on misunderstanding of ancient literature and also founded on a basic rejection of God's word as inspired, therefore it is of manifest importance that this issue be dealt with.

Now, as I promised wavy, I will try to present you with some sources of reading which deal with the documentary hypothesis (or JEDP / DH from now on). I have a book at home and Bible commentary which deals somewhat with this, so I will try to quote from them later, but until I get home here are some online sources which deal with the problem.

One site (here) with literally an arsenal of footnotes (100+) says this:

The documentary hypothesis is no longer as popular as it once was. Twentieth century scholarship has repudiated this view. Still, rather than returning to the traditional view of Mosaic authorship, twentieth century scholars have tended towards even more speculation. Several more documents have been suggested.35

Any evidence for the unity of the Pentateuch is explained away by asserting that a hypothetical editor supposedly put several documents together.36 It can be said of liberal scholars that they will not allow any evidence to falsify their subjective reasonings. They speculate that two creation accounts (Genesis 1; 2) must mean two different written sources. By doing this, they reject the abundant evidence showing that ancient semitic writers often utilized a style which made use of repetition in their literature. Somehow, twentieth century liberal scholars assume they can scientifically reconstruct the text thousands of years after it was written. They even believe their speculations should hold more weight than the traditional view of the Jews who were themselves much closer to the original documents.37

The modern liberal scholars are guilty of circular reasoning. In their attempt to prove that the Bible is merely a human book, they assume that revelation from God is impossible.38 In spite of the fact that much of ancient pagan history has been shown to be unreliable, liberal scholars assume that these pagan historical writings are always right when they differ from the biblical account39 Meanwhile, again and again the Bible has been proven to be historically reliable.40 Another weak assumption is their view that the Hebrews could use only one name for God. History reveals that ancient empires such as Babylon, Ugarit, Egypt, and Greece all had several names for their primary deity.41 Therefore, there is no justification for speculating the existence of different authors and multiple documents merely because a different name for God (Elohim or Jehovah) is being used.

One will notice that this source borrows heavily from a man named Gleason Archer, who apparently has written an Old Testament Survey that gives a thorough refutation of the DH.

Another source cites his arguments also, as well as making some of its own:

Wellhausen claimed that the J, E, D, P sequence followed the development from primitive animism towards the more sophisticated monotheism that would be expected as the Jewish culture and religion evolved. The impact of this connection was immediate and powerful.

Even though both liberal and conservative scholars removed much of the foundation of the documentary hypothesis in the twentieth century, the idea remains entrenched. As Gleason Archer states, "For want of a better theory . . . most non-conservative institutions continue to teach the Wellhausian theory, at least in its general outlines, as if nothing had happened in Old Testament scholarship since the year 1880."{3}
...
...
Let's now look at the problems with this theory.

First, it should be mentioned that conservative experts did not sit idly by as this theory developed and spread. In the late 1800's Princeton Seminary scholars Joseph Alexander and William Green "subjected the documentarian school to devastating criticism which has never been successfully rebutted by those of liberal persuasion," according to Gleason Archer.{4} In Germany, Ernst Wilhem Hengstenberg ably defended the Mosaic authorship of all five books of the Pentateuch. His 1847 book The Genuineness of the Pentateuch did much to encourage conservative thinking.
...
...
Another problem with the theory is that it assumes that "Hebrew authors differ from any other writers known in the history of literature in that they alone were incapable of using more than one name for God," or for that matter, more than one style of writing.{6} It is interesting that the Qur'an (Koran) uses multiple names for God, but few question that Muhammad was its sole author.
...
...
Despite what Gleason Archer calls "The overwhelming contrary evidence from Genesis to Malachi," advocates of the Wellhausen theory cling to its most fundamental principle: that the religion of the Jews evolved from primitive animism to a more sophisticated monotheism.{8}
...
...
But their unsupported assumptions don't stop there. Modern scholars assume that Hebrew writers never used the repetition of ideas or occurrences even though authors in other ancient Semitic languages did so. They also assume that they can scientifically date the texts, even though they have no other ancient Hebrew writings to compare them with. Documentary scholars have felt free to amend the text by substituting more common words for rare or unusual words that they do not understand or do not expect to see in a given context.{9} Although it claims to be scientific, the documentary hypothesis is anything but neutral.


I'd like to see some point by point answers to the refuting points, if it is possible, and see what explanation you can give for justifying the almost arbitrary picking and choosing of sources for JEDP (and even the number of suggested sources has been changed over time [back and forth] by any scholar that wanted to be in the field - from reducing it all to just a late Deuteronomist redactor up to having 6 or more editors, ad infinitum). Also I expect an addressing of the Ancient literary style of the Near East, of which great bounds in misunderstanding about have aided JEDPs upholding for this long.

~Josh
 
Also in the conclusion of that second source, it closes with this:

Where does this leave us today? In one sense it has left the scholarly community in search for new foundations. But even for those who reject the possibility of supernatural revelation, the evidence from archeology, the Dead Sea scrolls found at Qumran, and information about the languages of the ancient orient are making dependence on the Wellhausen theory inexcusable.

There is a trend among scholars to view the Pentateuch as a literary unit again. Scholars are admitting that the way the books use common words, phrases and motifs, parallel narrative structure, and deliberate theological arrangement of literary units for teaching and memorization support viewing the five books as a literary whole.{14} If this becomes the accepted view, Mosaic authorship can again be entertained.

I suspect that in the future that as more secular scholars realize the inadequacy of the DH in light of ancient texts, which actually are only recently really starting to be translated and critically evaluated in books, journals (JSTOR), etc. (even though we've known of the caches from Ugarit and Ras Shamra for decades), that they will drop JEDP when the similarity to Ancient Near Eastern literary style is more widely acknowledged, in favor of (since they will never actually admit inspiration of the Pentateuch) more and more arguments for the Pentateuch following a "common mythological structure which was prolific in ancient literature at the time which used heavy parallelism and multiple literary types in the same writing for presenting various theological motifs, etc.". Well.... if it's not one thing it will be another. Just a guess...

~Josh
 
I'm disappointed. I actually expected something challenging. Instead I receive a bunch of generalizations typical of conservatives and apologists, as if their ignorant hostility actually furnishes a refutation.

Well, I can make generalizations too from actual recognized authorities on the Pentateuch and the DH. Your sources seem to present the DH as some satanic tool to undermine religion because of some alleged bias against the 'supernatural'. Proponents of the DH simply treat the bible like any historical book. What these ignorant conservatives are really doing when they erect this straw man is asking the gullible to assume a supernaturalistic interpretation of the bible first--to make a special plea for its religious claims. In essence, they're interested in conversion, not scholarship. These are nothing but the minds of passionately religious men forming conspiracy theories in their heads because it provides them solace. They're also arguing against defunct (yet still useful and insightful) models of the DH, and they continue the same straw man you erected in the other thread: that the DH is based upon which name each source uses for the Israelite god.

Anyway, among the chief proponents of the DH and an internationally recognized authority is the eminent Richard E. Friedman, who carries much weight in this venue of biblical studies. He wrote:


Those who write on the Bible as literature and those whose interest has been the religious study of the Bible--i.e., the Bible as sacred literature--have rarely put this knowledge [i.e. the history of religion, the history of Israel, or the history of the formation of the bible according to DH models] to use. This was due in part to a perception that this kind of analysis would be threatening to religion...The threat to religion never materialized...Many--probably most--Protestant, Catholic, and Jewish clergy have now been learning, and teaching, this subject for over a century and have managed to reconcile it with their beliefs and traditions. (Who Wrote the Bible? Second Edition, 1997, p. 243, brackets mine)


Now we've both made our generalizations by quoting scholars (I'm not so sure about the actual 'scholarship' of your second, however, since I haven't checked it; the first seems to have an axe to grind too since the author is an affiliate of the 'Institute of Biblical Defense'--not a very unbiased source at all). I will continue with point by point rebuttals of your first source's points in subsequent posts. Give me time to complete it. I do have a job and a life like you do, Josh. :-D There's no need to address your second source, which really has nothing to add. I will shortly address the first point/s of your first source.


P.S.
Btw, I just noticed that your first source's footnotes will quote the same source in tandem for many footnotes. The comprehensiveness of its bibliography can hardly be exaggerated...


~eric
 
Dr. Fernandes' 'Refutation of the Documentary Hypothesis'

The documentary hypothesis is no longer as popular as it once was. Twentieth century scholarship has repudiated this view. Still, rather than returning to the traditional view of Mosaic authorship, twentieth century scholars have tended towards even more speculation. Several more documents have been suggested.

This is nothing but generalization and has little to do with refuting the DH. The second edition of the book I cited above was published the same year as this dissertation, and yet they're saying just the opposite. While I would unhesitantly take Friedman's expertise over Fernandes', that in itself doesn't help anything. Generalizations made on both sides (true or not) do not deal with the evidence for and the evidenced adduced against the DH.

Any evidence for the unity of the Pentateuch is explained away by asserting that a hypothetical editor supposedly put several documents together. It can be said of liberal scholars that they will not allow any evidence to falsify their subjective reasonings. They speculate that two creation accounts (Genesis 1; 2) must mean two different written sources. By doing this, they reject the abundant evidence showing that ancient semitic writers often utilized a style which made use of repetition in their literature. Somehow, twentieth century liberal scholars assume they can scientifically reconstruct the text thousands of years after it was written. They even believe their speculations should hold more weight than the traditional view of the Jews who were themselves much closer to the original documents.

Just more sweeping claims and indictments about proponents of the DH. There is unity within the Pentateuch, but there is also disunity which doesn't seem to result from the same hand and the proposed sources have consistently different interests and vocabulary (as well as order, in some cases).

Let's begin with his example of the Genesis creations. That there are two of them doesn't mean that they 'must' come from two sources. That is a straw man. I feel it's necessary at this point to repeat what I said in the other thread:

Both use different names for 'God', both envision him differently, both have a distinct literary style, and their chronology is incompatible. The Priestly version seems to be an etiology explaining the origin of the cosmos, but most importantly the Sabbath. The Priestly version culminates with Yahweh resting on the Sabbath and sanctifying the day. In other words, the story reflects one tradition of why ancient Israel worshipped on the Sabbath which is also reflected in the Priestly emendation to the Elohist version of the Ten Commandments in Exo xx.10-11 (contrast that with the Deuteronomistic version of the Ten Commandments in Deuteronomy v which states liberation from Egypt is the reason for honoring the Sabbath, or the Jahwist version of the Ten Commandments in Exodus xxxiv, where the Sabbath appears to be related to agricultural practices). The Jahwist version of creation seems to be reworked from ancient Mesopotamian myths, where paradise gardens, snake gods, immortality and other mythical similarities often feature.

Let's explore their chronology a bit deeper. The order in what is called the Priestly version of creation says living organisms were created in this order: plants (day 3; Gen i.11-12) ----> animals (day 6; i-24-25) ----> mankind (day 6; i. 26-27). What is called the Jahwist version of creation opens up in Gen ii.4 with 'This is the book of the geneaology of the heavens and earth'
and the gives the chronology this way: man (Gen ii.7) ----> plants (ii.9) ----> animals (ii.19) ----> woman (ii.22-23). Another interesting distinction between the two is their separate use of 'man' (Hebrew: adam). In the Priestly creation adam comprehends both male and female, while in the Jahwist creation adam personifies the male. This vocabularied feature is retained in both strata, another example being found in the two flood stories. These contradictions and distinctive qualities between the two accounts work against singular authorship.

I fail to see any citations of examples of ANE (Ancient Near Eastern) literature that are in any way comparative with the phenomenon of repetition found in the Pentateuch. Ancient Hebraic writings often employ use of repetition (like in poetry). But the doublets and ridiculous repetition found throughout the Pentateuch are often each complete in themselves, sometimes with disruptive comments by the final redactor. For example, The Priestly creation reflects an etiological, liturgical work concerned primarily with and culminating in the Sabbath. The Jahwist version forms a continuous narrative throughout the Pentateuch (cf. Friedman; The Hidden Book In the Bible).

Also, the 'traditional view of the Jews' is relatively late (appearing in the Second Temple period), is backed by no literary evidence, and is far removed enough from the time Moses would have lived to be traditionally irrelevant.

The modern liberal scholars are guilty of circular reasoning. In their attempt to prove that the Bible is merely a human book, they assume that revelation from God is impossible. In spite of the fact that much of ancient pagan history has been shown to be unreliable, liberal scholars assume that these pagan historical writings are always right when they differ from the biblical account Meanwhile, again and again the Bible has been proven to be historically reliable. Another weak assumption is their view that the Hebrews could use only one name for God. History reveals that ancient empires such as Babylon, Ugarit, Egypt, and Greece all had several names for their primary deity. Therefore, there is no justification for speculating the existence of different authors and multiple documents merely because a different name for God (Elohim or Jehovah) is being used.

More unsupported generalizations and irrelevant alleged conspiracy theories about proponents of the DH just wanting to preclude the supernatural (as if they are supposed to assume the supernatural by treating the bible specially over every other historical document/s). Also, there is no assumption that the Hebrews could only use one name for 'God'. That is a straw man. That surrounding ANE religions had different names for their gods is not denied. No ANE document treats these different names comparative to the way the different names for the Israelite deity are treated in the Pentateuch. If so, let's see them. The usage of the names cannot be explained in some systematic way relating to different aspects of Yahweh's character or his relation to his devotees. That notion was disproved in my second post in the thread linked to above. The systematic use of the names explanation fails to account for the doublets (repetition of the same story with slightly varying details) which use different names. I gave an example in the linked thread.

The evolutionary assumption that the Hebrew religion had evolved into monotheism is also called into question. Israel, after all, was the only nation among its ancient neighbors to have a true monotheistic faith. Israel is the exception rather than the rule. Even if one could prove that the religions of Israel's neighbors evolved towards monotheism, Israel's history is that of a nation that began with monotheism.

This does nothing but beg the question of Israel's assumed monotheism without actually addressing the evidence in favor of the evolution of Israelite religion into monotheism. My views can be found in this thread (also started by cybershark) entitled 'The Holy Trinity'. None of it was addressed. The best I received was from a user named Toms777 who appealed to monotheistic portions of the bible to disprove the polytheistic/henotheistic portions of the bible. The problem was that the monotheistic statements and portions of the bible are already conceded by those who believe in an evolutionary model of Israelite religion. You cannot use monotheistic sentiments in the bible to disprove blatant henotheistic sentiments in the bible or vice versa (which is what Mormons do). After failing to reply to this rebuttal, this user digressed by trying to read the doctrine of the Trinity into the bible and we debated for a while (tangentially) over the meaning of the Hebrew word echad (my final rebuttals of his argument and his 'sources' went unaddressed as well).

Modern liberal scholars are notorious for taking passages out of context in order to "prove" that the Bible contains contradictions. Whenever a conservative scholar produces a possible reconciliation of the passages in question, the solution is automatically rejected by liberal scholarship.43 Apparently, because of the common liberal bias against anything supernatural, liberal scholars will accept no argument for the traditional view of the Pentateuch.

More generalizations and conspiracy theory allegations.

In short, the documentary hypothesis and its updated versions do not stand on a solid foundation. They are based upon an unjustified bias against the supernatural; they also resort to fanciful speculation. The concept of the JEDP documents was created by the imaginations of liberal scholars. There is no evidence whatsoever that these documents ever existed. This is not to say that Moses did not draw upon information from written sources which predated him, but, if this was the case, objective evidence must be produced for verification. Uncontrolled subjective speculation is not true scholarship; it is the antithesis of scholarship.

Ibidem. This final 'refutation' of the DH by Fernandes leads into evidence for Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch, which will be explored next.


Thanks,
E.L.B.
 
wavy said:
I'm disappointed. I actually expected something challenging. Instead I receive a bunch of vague generalizations typical of conservatives and apologists, as if their ignorant hostility actually furnishes a refutation.

Don't be disappointed, cheer up. I was just whetting your appetite. :)

Here are two scholars (although one admitedly is an Apologist also - but nothing is wrong with that as long as they do good scholarship) who are a bit more mainstream for you to look at: R.N. Whybray and Kenneth Kitchen. Both men have adequate credentials (I'll give you the wikipedia links on them) and specialty areas.

Whybray back in the 70s gave the first lasting challenge that had been made in a while and he was a specialist in Hebrew studies.

Wikipedia summarizes:

The challenge to the Wellhausen consensus was perhaps best summed up by R. N. Whybray, who pointed out that of the various possible models for the composition of the Pentateuch - documentary, supplemental and fragmentary - the documentary was the most difficult to demonstrate, for while the supplemental and fragmentary models propose relatively simple, logical processes and can account for the unevenness of the final text, the process envisaged by the DH is both complex and extremely specific in its assumptions about ancient Israel and the development of its religion. Whybray went on to assert that these assumptions were illogical and contradictory, and did not offer real explanatory power: why, for example, should the authors of the separate sources avoid duplication, while the final redactor accepted it? "Thus the hypothesis can only be maintained on the assumption that, while consistency was the hallmark of the various [source] documents, inconsistency was the hallmark of the redactors!"

As you will see from the link I gave on Whybray's name above, he wrote two notable books which have challenged the theory, while he obviously still thinks there were rough edges in the style of writing which he thinks disregarded, "modern notions of literary consistency and smoothness of style and language." His most challenging book was The Making of the Pentateuch about which it is claimed, "was a major contribution to the field of Old Testament studies, and specifically to theories on the origins and composition of the Pentateuch. Its originality lay in its detailed critique of the documentary hypothesis, and it remains a standard text on many reading lists".

You can evaluate this at your leisure and double check as much as you like, and please do. A quote from his book given by that link said that Whybray argued, "Thus the hypothesis can only be maintained on the assumption that, while consistency was the hallmark of the various documents, inconsistency was the hallmark of the redactors".

It also says of him:

Whybray's own, alternative hypothesis, is based not on the documentary model but on a fragmentary model. He suggests that the Pentateuch was the product of a single author (not the four authors and multiple editors of the documentary hypothesis) working at some time in the 6th century BC "[with] a mass of material, most of which may have been of quite recent origin and had not necessarily formed part of any ancient Israelite tradition" (p. 242).

Now this view is still not so friendly to evangelicals who hold Mosaic authorship, but it is still a critcism "from inside the camp" so to speak. So it is still valuable to evangelicals, although admittedly some may ignorantly embrace him totally without realizing that he does not support the traditional interpretation:

"The Making of the Pentateuch" has been described as "the most compelling critique of the hypothesis" ever made, and it's arguments are frequently cited by evangelical Christians who wish to state the case for Mosaic authorship (ignoring the fact that Whybray's book explicitly rejects this notion and that he regards the Pentateuch as fiction)).

I obviously would not espouse all his views, no doubt, but the criticisms are still valid and atleast need to be evaluated.

-------------------------------------

Next is Kenneth Kitchen, who is an expert in Egyptological studies. From that link:

Kenneth Anderson Kitchen (born 1932) is Personal and Brunner Professor Emeritus of Egyptology and Honorary Research Fellow at the School of Archaeology, Classics and Oriental Studies, University of Liverpool, England.

Kitchen is one of the leading experts on Biblical History and the Egyptian Third Intermediate Period having written over 250 books and journal articles on these and other subjects since the mid-1950s. His book, The Third Intermediate Period in Egypt (1100–650 BC), is regarded by historians as the standard and most comprehensive treatment on this era

As for his work on the documentary Hypothesis it says:

He is frequently cited by conservative Christians in relation to writings rejecting the Documentary Hypothesis, which claims that the Pentateuch is a composite work of sources labeled J, E, D, and P rather than by Moses as author. Kenneth Kitchen has raised various objections to the documentary hypothesis. For example, Kitchen points to Egyptian tablets giving a biographical account in four different writing styles, yet this text (he claims) is widely accepted as having had one author. Kitchen himself, however, is not strictly traditionalist in terms of authorship of the Pentateuch, pointing out numerous places where the text demand post-Mosaic editing in the Pentateuch (See K. A. Kitchen in He Swore an Oath [ed. R. Hess, et. al.; Grand Rapids, Baker, 1994] 91).

Once again, he is not a "strict traditionalist", even if he is an evangelical.

Granted I am getting alot of this from second hand sources, and maybe perhaps I can look at my university library and find Whybray and Kitchen's works to cite from, but supposedly Kitchen has given examples in his book Ancient Orient and the Old Testament of ANE similarities to the Biblical literary structure. From another forum someone wrote this (speaking about the DH):

I am reading a book by R.N. Whybray who is not a evangelical that I know of who in his book The Making of the Pentateuch: A Methodological Study points out the errs in Method and presuppositions. Also Gordon Wenham in the Word Biblical Commentary of Genesis 1-15gives it a pretty devastating critique. Along with that there are many more. Kenneth Kitichen in his book Ancient Orient and the Old Testament shows its short comings since other documents in the ANE show the same charateristics doublets, Anachronistic phrases etc.

From some of the other sites I've read about Kitchen it seems that he argues that the method applied to the Bible for determining authorship would be almost absurd if applied to other ANE writings. Apparently he is still active in apologetics today, as a site lists him among modern Apologists:

Other leading Christian apologists include: Gleason Archer, Greg Bahnsen, F. F. Bruce, Gordon Haddon Clark, William Lane Craig, Gary Habermas, J. P. Holding, Kenneth Kitchen, Bruce Metzger, J. P. Moreland, Bernard Ramm, R. C. Sproul, Merrill Unger, Johnson C. Philip, Cornelius Van Til, and Edwin M. Yamauchi

I'll give you time to find your own sources, and no doubt ones that will know of these two and repudiate them (so goes the endless circle of debate :)), but perhaps this gives you some more to chew on.

God Bless,

~Josh
 
wavy said:
Just more sweeping claims and indictments about proponents of the DH. There is unity within the Pentateuch, but there is also disunity which doesn't seem to result from the same hand and the proposed sources have consistently different interests and vocabulary (as well as order, in some cases).

By admitting some unity to the Pentatuech then it would seem you would not be wholly indisposed to Whybray's view, who acknowledged the rough edges, and treats it as a late work, but primarily argues for its unity as a whole - namely coming from one hand. For my purposes it is proving the principle which is important, not seeking out subjective dates of when it was actually penned.

Also, the 'traditional view of the Jews' is relatively late (appearing in the Second Temple period), is backed by no literary evidence, and is far removed enough from the time Moses would have lived to be traditionally irrelevant.

But this doesn't make sense. Why would the generation that supposedly forged the additions to the Pentateuch be the same that held its entire Mosaic authorship? Josiah's reforms were based on the Book of the Law and in Ezra and Nehemiah's (admittedly post-captivity) time they were referred to as Moses' law.

At any rate this argument is not the most important one, but still is a curiosity to me.

More unsupported generalizations and irrelevant alleged conspiracy theories about proponents of the DH just wanting to preclude the supernatural (as if they are supposed to assume the supernatural by treating the bible specially over every other historical document/s).

This however is the formative and foundational philosophy that seems to unjustifiably twist people toward a disposition of accepting the DH. Not in all circumstances, because not all arguments rest on the supernatural interpretation of a passage (one that does however would be the law coming from God on Mt. Sinai - an absolutely pivotal event for the law of Moses), but it surely helps it along.

No ANE document treats these different names comparative to the way the different names for the Israelite deity are treated in the Pentateuch.

Such as? How are they treated in the Pentateuch? What differences in usage are you noting?

If so, let's see them. The usage of the names cannot be explained in some systematic way relating to different aspects of Yahweh's character or his relation to his devotees.

I'm not so sure about that. Now of course in all circumstances the use of the name cannot automatically imply an interpretive element, but I have read a book that convincingly showed me distinctive themes tied to 7 of God's names in the OT: Yahweh, Elohim, Adonai, El Elyon, El Shaddai, El Olam, and Yahweh Sabaoth.

And it also deals with the more complex structure of the ideas when two or more of the names are used together (most commonly Yahweh Elohim), but evaluates it in context of its surrounding usage (doesn't just isolate the single verse, but notes how the same name is used consistently around it thematically). I think Genesis 1 & 2 fit the bill of how I laid it out before. But that's just me.

That notion was disproved in my second post in the thread linked to above. The systematic use of the names explanation fails to account for the doublets (repetition of the same story with slightly varying details) which use different names.

I don't mean to be aggravating, but I'm still not seeing how you disproved my suggestion.

This does nothing but beg the question of Israel's assumed monotheism without actually addressing the evidence in favor of the evolution of Israelite religion into monotheism.

Ah, but here is a consequence of the philosophical position I mentioned above - due to denying the supernatural element (most importantly God at Mt. Sinai). You are allowing this philosophy to drive you into making a paradigm in which you must divide certain ideas to different times in an "evolutionary timeline" for it to make sense to you, which is completely baseless regardless of questions that there may be based on lost history which we cannot recover of when and where the books were composed. Too many people make too much of Israel's periods of idolatry to try to "prove" that that was their original worship and only later consolidated it to monotheism (which they claim Josiah had a big hand in). I say that is an unfounded assumption, and that it very well could have happened just as the Bible tells us it historically happened: They were given their law in the wilderness, once they got into the land they forsook it and adopted the local religions - transgressing against God, and after a series of God's providential acts of using Judges and Kings to reign over the people worked out the struggle to restore true obedience to God by the law until Jesus came.


The problem was that the monotheistic statements and portions of the bible are already conceded by those who believe in an evolutionary model of Israelite religion. You cannot use monotheistic sentiments in the bible to disprove blatant henotheistic sentiments in the bible or vice versa (which is what Mormons do). After failing to reply to this rebuttal, this user digressed by trying to read the doctrine of the Trinity into the bible and we debated for a while (tangentially) over the meaning of the Hebrew word echad (my final rebuttals of his argument and his 'sources' went unaddressed as well).

To this I will leave you to more qualified people than I. Leah Bronner in her book "Biblical Personalities and Archaeology" (1974), which I enjoyed reading thoroughly - even if it is a little old, deals with the problem of Israel's monotheistic development and addresses the scholarly concerns and presents alternatives that were in my mind convincing that argued for an early Israelite monotheism concept. I would refer you to her if you wish to discuss this more. Perhaps you could find this book at a local library (that's where I first saw the book around where I live). You can also buy it on amazon.

Well, that's all for now. I still have yet to pull on my other sources from my books at home. Though this could turn out to be a fun and in-depth discussion.

Later,

~Josh
 
When I said 'give me time' I wasn't kidding. I wanted to finish addressing your first source's arguments for Mosaic authorship. I'd rather you wait before responding.

Thanks,
E.L.B.
 
wavy said:
When I said 'give me time' I wasn't kidding. I wanted to finish addressing your first source's arguments for Mosaic authorship. I'd rather you wait before responding.

Thanks,
E.L.B.

Alright. I'll try not to overwhelm you.

P.S. However, I did want to throw one more thing your way once you get done with that. Check out this book review here. These two authors also took on the DH and were not fundamentalist scholars. Another review of that book is here and here (on JSTOR - hope the links work for you).

Hope you have time to catch up. ;)

~Josh
 
Fernandes' 'EVIDENCES FOR THE MOSAIC AUTHORSHIP OF THE PENTATEUCH'

First, the entire Pentateuch displays a unity of arrangement. Even the documentarians concede this point by inventing a hypothetical editor to explain the unity of the Pentateuch. This unity of arrangement strongly implies that the Pentateuch had only one author.

There are numerous contradictions too, which disrupt the unity that allegedly 'implies' singular authorship. I'd like to quote a paragraph from Friedman again and then proceed with a few of my own examples, one of which has already been given above with the Priestly and Jahwist creations. This is what Friedman writes referring to beginning speculations against traditional Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch:

But the tradition that one person, Moses, alone wrote these books presented problems. People observed contradictions in the text. It would report events in a particular order, and later it say those same events happened in a different order. It would say there were two of something, and elsewhere it would say that there were fourteen of that same thing. It would say that the Moabites did something, and later it would say that it was the Midianites who did it. It would describe Moses going to a Tabernacle in a chapter before Moses builds the Tabernacle. People also noticed that the five books of Moses included things that Moses could not have known or was not likely to have said. The text, after all, gave an account of Moses' death. It also said that Moses was the humblest man on earth; and normally one would not expect the humblest man on earth to point out that he is the humblest man on earth. (ibid. p.17).

Another example of contradiction is seen when trying to figure out who actually wrote the Ten Commandments: God or Moses. While I currently hold that the Elohist and Jahwist versions of the giving of the Ten Commandments (Exo xx and xxxiv, respectively) are two alternate accounts of what happened the first and only time Moses received them (the Ex xxxiv.1c clause being an editorial comment based upon the Elohist golden calf cipher, where Moses breaks the first set), I'll operate under the assumption that 'Moses' was the sole author and that both versions are sequential rather than alternate. We won't even deal with the fact that both sets of tablets as recorded in both chapters contain different commandments, contrary to Yahweh saying that the words on the second set of tablets would be the same as the first in Exo xxxiv.1. According to this verse and Deut x.2 God wrote on the second set of tablets, and yet Exo xxxiv.28 states that Moses wrote on the second set of Tablets. How could one writer, supposedly present and participative in these events, so flagrantly contradict himself? And while I could make an issue of when the ark was built (see Exo xxv.10 & Deut x.2), and where and by whom, I'll save that for another time.

There are also several passages Moses supposedly wrote that make little sense if he actually wrote them. Two examples are given in a thread I made entitled 'Mosaic Authorship of the Pentateuch' when I first wanted to discuss this topic with cybershark, but apparently it went ignored (only the user and moderator 'handy' answered, and then she didn't even address my points directly). I'll reproduce those points here:

Post-Mosaic comments and a contradiction said:
]Gen.36.31(NASB)
Now these are the kings who reigned in the land of Edom before any king reigned over the sons of Israel.

Does any one care to explain how Moses listed a succession of Edomite kings in detail up until the Israelite monarchy half a millenium (or roughly 2+ centuries, depending on whether we date Moses to the 15th or 13th century) after Moses supposedly died by using 'reigned' (perfect tense)?

...

According to my view Moses neither wrote nor spoke the words of anything in Deuteronomy, and this is demonstrable beginning with the very first words of the book:

Deut.1.1
These are the words which Moses spoke to all Israel across the Jordan in the wilderness, in the Arabah opposite Suph, between Paran and Tophel and Laban and Hazeroth and Dizahab.

'Across the Jordan' would be the east side of Jordan, and of course, Moses never crossed over from the east to the west. But the phrase 'across the Jordan' itself gives the perspective of an author who's already in Canaan (i.e. west of Jordan).

Deut.1.5; 4.41,46-49 continue to give the persepctive of the true author who's writing in Canaan. Respectively, the author(s) does attempt to properly quote Moses from Moses' perspective east of the Jordan:

Deut.3.19-20
But your wives and your little ones and your livestock (I know that you have much livestock) shall remain in your cities which I have given you, until the LORD gives rest to your fellow countrymen as to you, and they also possess the land which the LORD your God will give them beyond the Jordan [in Canaan] then you may return every man to his possession which I have given you.

Deut.3.25
Let me, I pray, cross over and see the fair land that is beyond the Jordan [in Canaan], that good hill country and Lebanon.'

Deut.11.30
Are they not across the Jordan, west of the way toward the sunset, in the land of the Canaanites who live in the Arabah, opposite Gilgal, beside the oaks of Moreh?

The author makes the effort to put Moses in proper perspective. However, he unwittingly and mistakenly reveals his own west of Jordan perspective and disconfirms that Moses' speeches are truly Mosaic:

Deut.3.8
Thus we took the land at that time from the hand of the two kings of the Amorites who were beyond the Jordan, from the valley of Arnon to Mount Hermon

The land of which Moses speaks is east of Jordan. Moses is already east of Jordan, having never crossed west of Jordan, and he speaks as if the east of Jordan (his location) is across the Jordan.

...

For example, Ex.21.2,7 with Deut.15.12. One says women cannot be released as slaves the same way as men. The other gives women the same right as men.

Other demonstrably post-/non-Mosaic comments and anachronisms can be found in Gen xiv.14 (mention of 'Dan' as a tribal territory in northern Canaan before the tribe of Dan was actually settled there during the time of the Judges), Ex xvi.35, Deut ii.12 (mention of the entry and the conquest of Canaan as events of the past). There are several more.

Second, both the Old and New Testaments call Moses the author of the Pentateuch (Joshua 8:31; 1 Kings 2:3; Daniel 9:11; Mark 12:26; Luke 20:28; John 5:46-47; 7:19; Acts 3:22; Romans 10:5). Even the Pentateuch itself declares Moses to be its author (Exodus 17:14; 24:4; 34:27; Numbers 33:1-2; Deuteronomy 31:9).45

The New Testament is far too removed from Moses' time as to be relevant. No one denies that in the NT era there was a belief that Moses wrote the Pentateuch. It should also be noted that certain passages in the OT (inlcuding the Pentateuch) that are often quoted by proponents of Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch do not really say that Moses wrote the Pentateuch...only that he wrote down legislation (which the Pentateuch does not claim to be; it only speaks of the 'book of the law'). This argument by Fernandes for Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch is simply erroneous.

Third, eyewitness details in the Pentateuch indicate the author was a participant in the events he was describing. The author at times is so precise in his details that he lists the exact number of fountains (twelve) and palm trees (seventy) in Exodus 15:27.46 The author even describes the appearance and taste of the manna from heaven for future generations (Numbers 11:7-8).47 These precise details make it unlikely that the author was other than an eyewitness of the events he recorded.

At first I thought about posting: 'this argument for Mosaic authorship is circumstantial, ridiculous, and isn't worth a rebuttal', but I promised a point by point rebuttal. I suppose 'Moses' also lived 400 years before his birth to be an eyewitness to Joseph's (Jacob's favorite son) appearance as well (see Gen xxxix.6). Simply put, these kinds of 'detailed' narrative comments are simply the work of an imaginative writer adding a bit of flavor and color to his story and is useless in determining who wrote the Pentateuch.

Fourth, the author of the Pentateuch was well acquainted with the geography and language of Egypt. He was familiar with Egyptian names and uses Egyptian figures of speech. There is a greater percentage of Egyptian words in the Pentateuch than in the rest of the Bible. This seems to indicate that the author had lived in Egypt and was most likely educated there as well. Moses was born, raised, and educated in Egypt. It is also interesting to note that the author does not attempt to explain these uniquely Egyptian factors. This probably indicates that his original readers were also familiar with the Egyptian culture, and, this is exactly the case with the Israelites that Moses led out of Egypt.

This is circumstantial evidence, like above, and is exaggerated (the Egyptian elements amount only to a few words, phrases, and a superificial knowledge of the Egyptian world). One also wonders why the author, supposedly the Egyptian-educated Moses, would not know that his name derives from the Egyptian language and instead erroneously traces it to an unrelated Hebrew root (Exo ii.10). Despite cybershark's objection below, most biblical scholars in general consider the name 'Moses' of Egyptian origin. I would refer cybershark to J. Gywn Griffiths in 'The Egyptian Derivation of the Name Moses' (JNES, Vol. 12, No. 4,, 1953, pp. 225-31) for a concise survey. Several kings in the first millenium during the Israelite monarchy were also associated with the powerful nation of Egypt, during the time that DH proponents suggest these stories were most likely written.

Fifth, the author of the Pentateuch, although familiar with Egypt, shows himself to be unfamiliar with the land of Canaan.49 This is consistent with Moses. After leaving Egypt, he wandered through the wilderness of Sinai, but did not enter Canaan (the promised land). The author of the Pentateuch, though he describes with great detail the geography and vegetation of Egypt and Sinai, treats the land of Canaan as a place virtually uknown to him or his people.50 Therefore, the traditional view of Mosaic authorship is much more plausible than the documentary hypothesis.

I have yet to study this aspect of defense of Mosaic authorship in Pentateuchal studies (alleged unfamiliarity with Canaan), even though I believe the first six books of the bible (Genesis-Joshua) originally formed a Hexateuch (the author of Joshua, who I also believe to be the author of Deuteronomy and who wrote the Deuteronoministic History extending to the books of Samuel, Kings, and Jeremiah, was obviously familiar with the land of Canaan). But that notwithstanding, this fifth objection is easily explained by the the story itself--it was not yet concerned with Canaan in any significant depth. The Pentateuch concerns the exodus from Egypt and the wilderness trek, suspensefully awaiting the fate of Israel as they approached the border. One also wonders what constitutes alleged unfamiliarity with Canaan, as the allegedly singular author narrates several epics of the patriarchs in the Canaanite region (and even beyond in Mesopotamia).

Sixth, the setting of Exodus through Numbers is that of a desert atmosphere point of view. Even the laws concerning sanitation apply to a desert lifestyle (Deuteronomy 23:12-13). This would not be the case if the author or authors lived an agricultural lifestyle in their own land for nearly a thousand years (which is what the documentary hypothesis teaches). Even the tabernacle (a portable tent that was the Jewish place of worship) implies a nomadic lifestyle of the worshipers.

With the Judean wilderness within Canaan itself, the fact that nomadic lifestyles still existed in the first millenium, and the setting of the story, it comes as no surprise that the authors of the Pentateuch would narrate events in the desert as they would occur...in the desert. The authors of the Pentateuch did not live in isolation from the rest of the world.

Seventh, Moses was qualified to be the author of the Pentateuch. He was educated in Egypt, grew up there, and spent much of his later life in the Sinai desert (Acts 7:22).

This isn't really a serious point. Any number of people could be qualified to write the Pentateuch (also, see anachronisms and contradictions above).

Eighth, the customs recorded in the Pentateuch were genuine second millennium BC customs. This would not be expected if the Pentateuch was written much later. This point is even stronger when it is realized that many of these customs were not continued on into the first millennium BC. Some of these ancient customs were the legal bearing of children through maidservants, the legality of oral deathbed wills, the possessing of household idols in order to claim inheritence rights, and the way real estate transactions were practiced.

Nothing precludes a writer in the first millenium from writing about the past. This defense of Mosaic authorship must assume complete ignorance of Israelites during the monarchy about social customs, etc. of their ancestry and history. Even so:

Those who dated the patriarchs in the second half of the 2nd millenium B.C. (as well as some who dated them earlier) often appeal to alleged comparable social customs in the Nuzi texts in support of the historicity of the patriarchs and their setting in that period...However, these and other parallels are now seen to be unjustified, since in each case either the Nuzi or the biblical evidence has to be forced in order to make the equations fit properly.
Moreover, in recent years parallels to some of the patriarchal social customs have also been claimed for the first millenium B.C. and some scholars have argued that the patriarchal stories are completely unhistorical and simply reflect the conditions of the Iron Age (1200 B.C. onwards). It is certainly true that features of the stories reflect this period, e.g. excavations at Beer-sheba (which appears in the narratives, e.g. Gen. 21) reveal that there was no city there in the Middle or Late Bronze Age, and the Philistines, who are mentioned in the stories (e.g. Gen. 26) did not appear in Palestine till c. 1200 B.C.
-- (Oxford Bible Atlas, Third Edition, Oxford University Press, 1984, p. 108).

Similarly, Dr. Victor H. Matthews (who's contributed articles to prestigious and voluminous works like the Layman's Bible Dictionary, Biblical Archaeologist, and the Anchor Bible Dictionary) writes:

The perspective of of many extrabiblical writings is secular, with no attempt being made to create a religious framework for them. Overreliance on parallels can therefore lead to incorrect interpretations and wishful thinking...Without more complete evidence caution must therefore be the watchword when using parallel materials to explain or clarify the biblical narratives. (Manners and Customs in the Bible, Revised Edition, Hendrickson Publishers Inc., 1991, p. xvi).

But again, I want to reemphasize: nothing precludes any writer from writing accurately (or in my opinion in the case of the Pentateuch, somewhat accurately) about the past.

Ninth, the Ras Shamra literature dates back to approximately 1400BC. Therefore, writing existed during Moses' time. Hence, it cannot be argued that written languages had not developed to the degree of the Pentateuch at such an early date, which is what the documentary hypothesis teaches.

This is an outdated and cheap remonstrance. No reputable, contemporary proponent of the DH argues that writing did not exist in the period Moses lived (fifteenth or thirteenth centuries B.C.). Besides, this isn't 'evidence' for Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch.

Tenth, archaeological finds have confirmed much of the history and customs reported in the Pentateuch, whereas no archaeological find has refuted the history recorded in the Bible. Examples of this are the excavations of the cities of Bethel, Schechem, and Ur. Archaeology has shown that these cities were inhabited as early as 2,000BC (the time of Abraham). This had been denied by liberal scholars until archaeology proved them wrong and the Pentateuch right. The Hittite Legal Code, which dates back to about 1300BC, is another example. It was discovered by archaeologists between 1906 and 1912. It confirms the ancient procedure used by Abraham and several Hittites while engaging in a real estate transaction in Genesis 23.62 Another example of archaeological confirmation of the historical reliability of the Pentateuch deals with the use of camels. Genesis records that Abraham owned camels. However, since no nonbiblical references to domesticated camels had been found, liberal scholars assumed the Pentateuch had to have been written at a much later date. However, since 1950, several archaeological findings have shown that the domestication of camels in the middle east occurred as early as 2,000BC.

More outdated and irrelevant remonstrations. Also, see above. And while I could attack points at which the bible disagrees with archaeology, I'll save that for perhaps another time. There's no need to investigate that here (and this isn't evidence for Mosaic authorship either).

Eleventh, all the biblical evidence shows that the Jewish Faith was originally monotheistic, and that it later became idolatrous and polytheistic. This runs counter to the evolutionary view of religion. In fact, there is no historical evidence that any nation's religion ever "evolved" into a genuine monotheistic faith. A true monotheistic faith is unique to the Jewish religion and its offshoots (Christianity, Islam, and their offshoots).

This was addressed above in Fernandes' 'refutation'. Asserting your position is true and therefore concluding that your opposition is false is just illogical. This is irrelevant to Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch anyway. It seems as if Fernandes' is running out of things to say.

Twelfth, liberal objections that the religious customs, writings, and legal code of the Jews were too advanced for the traditional fifteenth century BC date of composition have been shown to be unwarranted. Recent studies of ancient religions show that "primitive" peoples had technical sacrificial language. Also, the Code of Hammurabi (1800BC) is a legal code which is very similar in its sophistication to the Law of Moses. The census lists found in the ancient Semitic world (Mari, Ugarit, and Alalakh) between 2000 and 1500BC have much in common with the census lists found in the Book of Numbers. Finally, Deuteronomy follows the same basic format as the Hittite suzerainty treaties (latter half of the second millennium BC), a treaty agreed upon by a king and his people. Therefore, the Pentateuch appears to be a fifteenth century BC document, and not a much later writing.

I'd like to refer the reader to the quotes above concerning parallels between the bible and archaeological finds. I'd also wonder how far Fernandes and others would take those parallels (which are believed by some proponents of Mosaic authorship to be relevant enough as to date Pentateuchal material early), as with the CoH from the early second millenium B.C. For example, like Moses, Hammurabi also received his law from a god (Marduk, the chief Babylonian deity) and here we have a thematic, religious connection as mentioned by Matthews above. This is how one largely conservative scholarly work (67+ major contributors of the likes of F.F. Bruce, Glen R. Miller, Merril C. Tenney, the general editor, and John C. Whitcomb Jr.) treats the relation between the CoH and the Pentateuch:

Students of the Bible are especially interested in the comparison of Hammurabi's code with the Mosaic legislation of the Bible. There are many similarities...How are these similarities to be explained? It is obvious that Hammurabi's could not have borrowed from Moses, for the Hebrew lawgiver lived several centuries after the Babylonian. Direct borrowing in the other direction seems very unlikely. Most scholars agree today that the similarities are to be explained by the common background of the Hebrews and Babylonians. Both were Semitic peoples inheriting their customs and laws from their common ancestors. At first this explanation would seem to run counter to the Biblical claim that Moses' law was given to the legislator by divine revelation. A closer examination of the Pentateuch will show that the Hebrews before they came to Sinai followed many regulations set forth in the law (e.g. penalties against murder, adultery, fornication, Gen. 9:6; 38:24; the levirate law, Gen. 38:8; clean and unclean animals, Gen. 8:20; Sabbath, Gen. 2:3; Exod. 16:23,25-29). Moses' law consists of things both old and new. What was old...was here formally incorporated into the nation's constitution. (Dr. John B. Graybill, Zondervan Pictorial Bible Dictionary, 'Hammurabi', 1967, p. 322-33).

The similar customs are explained as originating from a common legal tradition when making apologetics about questions of divine inspiration and revelation, but it wouldn't be concluded that the Pentateuch was written 300-500 years before it was allegedly written by Moses. For one, why can't proponents of the DH explain the laws found in the Pentateuch as originating from a common tradition of laws dating before the the first millenium when the DH suggests the Pentateuch was written? How come Moses is allowed to know old traditions anterior to his time, but the first millenium B.C. authors suggested by the DH are assumed to be ignorant of anything in the past about the patriarchs (assuming that the laws resembling Moses' law in the patriarchal narratives aren't simply retrojections)? And finally, why is insufficient attention paid to the parallel between both legal codes being enacted by gods? (making them functionally similar religious myths)

I have yet to explore ANE census lists, but what possible connection could be made with the book of Numbers with other ANE census lists that could establish an early date? How varied could ANE census lists (from the mid-/late-second millenium to the early-mid first millenium) be? The correlations are simply too vague to establish an early, 'Mosaic' date for the Pentateuch.

I'd also like to comment on Deuteronomy being written in the form of ancient suzerainty treaty. While that's true for it's general outline (although I believe this claim is exaggerated), Deuteronomy has points of topical and syntactical match with all features of Assyrian vassal treaties dating to the seventh century...right at the time the DH proposes Deuteronomy was written. For example, the Vassal Treaty of Esarhaddon:

The interest of this treaty goes further back, however, because in form it partially follows a literary pattern now recognised in several other documents. This pattern is found not only in rediscovered ancient treaties but also in the Bible...According to it, the document begins with a Preamble or Title; [Deut i.1-5, for example]; this is followed by a Historical account of the past relations between the parties; [Deut. i ff] then come the Provisions of the treaty, that is to say, what is expected of each of the parties; [the Deuteronomistic law code contained primarily in chs. xii through to xxvi] there is often mention of the Placing of a copy of the treaty in the vassal's sanctuary and arrangement for periodic Reading of the provisions; [the correlation is obvious; see Deut. xxxi.10 & 26] a list of Witnessing gods comes next; [in Deuteronomy they take the form of heaven and earth; see xxxii.1] and there is a concluding section of Curses and Blessings for the degree of fulfillment of the provisions [occupying the bulk of Deut xxvii & xxviii] -- (T.C. Mitchell, Biblical Archaeology: Documents from the British Museum, Cambridge University Press, 1988, p. 65, brackets mine).

Thirteenth, ancient legends of creation and the worldwide flood are universal among primitive peoples. These legends appear to perversions of the true biblical account. An example of this would be a comparison of the ancient Babylonian flood account (the Gilgames Epic) and the Genesis flood account. Whereas the boat in the Babylonian account would never float due to its dimensions, the ark's dimensions as listed in Genesis describe a vessel that would be virtually impossible to capsize.

Of course, he's going to say the other legends are 'perversions' of the 'true' account, but while I could digress on attacking the Flood story and challenge his statement that a big wooden box (which is the meaning of the Hebrew for 'ark') with proportions as layed out in the bible would float, this has nothing to do with supporting Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch. If anyone is interested, I'd advise them to go to talkorigins.org and investigate the problems with the Flood story from a scientific viewpoint themselves

Fourteenth, the Jews accepted the Law as Mosaic during King Josiah's reform in 621BC. It is therefore hard to believe that a large portion of the Pentateuch had just been written. The Jews of that day could not have been so naive. It seems more likely that they had good reasons to believe the documents they had were copies of the ancient writings of Moses and not recent creations.

Josiah instituted national repentance. Since Judah was a vassal state to Assyria at this time, with the threat of being conquered completely ever present, a treaty like the one mentioned above would serve as a model for writing the book of Deuteronomy to play upon the people's guilt (their current situation being attributed to sin). Anyway, we know nothing specific about this period other than what the Deuteronomist narrates, which is that a lost copy of the book of the law was found and was used politically to muster national reform.

Fifteenth, Moses had a good reason for using different names for the one true God. He used different names for God when dealing with different contexts. He referred to God as "Elohim" when discussing His act of creation or His infinite power. Moses seems to have called God "Jehovah" (Yahweh) when speaking of God in terms of His covenant relationship with His elect. It is therefore unreasonable to assume that the utilization of various names for God requires more than one author. In fact, compound names such as Yahweh-Elohim are often used to refer to God. Yahweh-Elohim occurs eleven times in the second chapter of Genesis. It is ludicrous to assume that one compound name for God is the work of two authors writing at different times.

This has already been addressed. The presence of doublets, which use different names for God, contradict this explanation. Doublets contain virtually the same narrative material with slight twists. There is no pattern in the Pentateuch that uses the names for 'God' in this way. That portions of the bible contain the nominal form 'Yahweh-Elohim' and should, according to DH proponents, be written by two authors is a ridiculous straw man.

Finally, Moses also had good reasons for varying his diction and style. Good authors commonly vary their text to prevent monotony; Moses would have done the same. Moses would also have to vary his style due to the wide range of his subject material (genealogies, biographies, historical accounts, religious instruction, moral legislation, etc.). The varying of the diction and style of the Pentateuch is therefore no evidence for multiple authors. Even parallel accounts (such as the two creation accounts of Genesis 1 and 2) were common by one author in ancient Semetic literature; it was often used as a type of poetic style.

This is just rehashed from above, and has been dealt with (and isn't evidence for Mosaic authorship anyway).

When all the above factors are taken together, the conclusion becomes obvious. There are extremely good reasons for accepting the traditional view that Moses wrote the Pentateuch between 1450 and 1410BC. There is absolutely no evidence for multiple authors of the Pentateuch (other than the case of Moses' obituary in Deuteronomy 34 which was probably penned by Joshua). Though Moses did apparently refer to written documents which predate him (especially while compiling Genesis), all the evidence favors the early traditional date for the Pentateuch, and not the later dates given by liberal scholars. The evidence points to Mosaic authorship. The liberal view is therefore based upon a bias against the supernatural; it is not based upon a scholarly consideration of the evidence.

Given my point by point rebuttals above, I can scarcely agree with this conclusion. And that Deut xxxiv was written by some one other than Moses just begs the question of Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch. Nothing in this chapter indicates a shift in authorship to Joshua or anyone else. That's just plain grasping at straws with no evidence to back the assertion.

Finally, I would like to add that the Hebrew of the Pentateuch is written in standard or monarchial Hebrew. While proponents of Mosaic authorship explain this away by appealing to reworking and updating of the literature by later scribes (with no evidence), it remains that if the Pentateuch is written in standard Hebrew, then it's most likely that the provenance of the Pentateuch is to be found in this period.



Thanks,
Eric
 
If we start getting into contradictions vs. reconcilliations you know what will happen to this thread, and we'll never get it back on track. If you'll allow me, soon I'll quote your points and make yet another thread out of them, but I want to stay a little more focused on the literary style, and you wanted to see some examples of similar ANE literature to the Bible. So to try to narrow the scope down a little I gave that post above on Whybray and Kitchen, in hopes that since they are more well known and have published works that we could have better sucess in discussing this issue from their works. Also the links I gave in the P.S. above cover a book that argues for the literary unity of Genesis 1-11, so that might be of some interest to you. So whenever you want to finish your rebuttal (if you wish to continue with that first source - and you are right, it was "general", thus why I'm trying to tighten up the focus a bit) could you please address my most recent posts above? I would appreciate it.

Now, you do make a valid point that the OT more often mentions the Book of the Law (some think it was referring to Deuteronomy) and it most likely wouldn't have had Genesis as part of the legal code, nonetheless we can still gather that there was at least one completed book of the law handed down from Moses. It could also have been that several of the books were meshed continuously in the same scroll since Numbers picks up where Exodus left off more or less, and could have easily read as one long book. It is attested to among the Dead Sea Scrolls of having several books in the same (long) scroll. Perhaps this could bear some more looking in to but as I said in my most recent posts above, I didn't think that proving that Scripture internally provides evidence of Moses as writing the Pentateuch was the biggest issue at the moment, but rather that I thought it was a curiosity. I will try to revisit this question later if I can though.

I really would like to move on to my most recent posts, one of which was a response to your original points, though.

Thanks,

~Josh
 
One also wonders why the author, supposedly the Egyptian-educated Moses, would not know that his name derives from the Egyptian language and instead erroneously traces it to an unrelated Hebrew root (Exo ii.10).

Oh, for the record, if you read that book by Leah Bronner - Biblical Personalities and Archaeology - which I referred you to above, she deals with this as well and covers the etymology as coming from Egyptian and meaning of the name and how it fits into the story. I might even have some page scans of the relevant pages if I'm lucky (I liked the book so much I didn't want to return it to the library so I scanned several pages into my computer :-D). If I remember later I'll take a look at it, but I have Church tonight - because I have a God to worship and serve and an infallible book to study on :wink:.

P.S. There are plenty of posts to catch up on, so I'll just lie low until you can get to them.

~Josh
 
Hi, cybershark. I've updated my responses down to Fernandes' eleventh point (and added material to my response to point four about the etymology of Moses' name).


Thanks,
E.L.B.
 
For the record (and I will try to do my best later to do as you have, and take the time to respond point by point) I'll just say right now that you are correct in the parts where you point out that certain arguements were detractions from the main point, and were a bit extraneous to the main focus. I guess it eventually just fell into general apologetics as it went down which were a bit irrelevant for this particular discussion. But as I have pleaded above I hope we can move on to my new posts so that we don't get stuck on this one source and hopefully get a bit more specific.

Thanks,

~Josh
 
I understand, Josh. Thanks for your patience. We'll move on shortly. I sent you a pm.

Thanks,
Eric
 
I have finished with Fernandes (points 12-15) and am ready to continue below:


cybershark5886 said:
By admitting some unity to the Pentatuech then it would seem you would not be wholly indisposed to Whybray's view, who acknowledged the rough edges, and treats it as a late work, but primarily argues for its unity as a whole - namely coming from one hand. For my purposes it is proving the principle which is important, not seeking out subjective dates of when it was actually penned.

I have yet to read his aforementioned book. Perhaps I'll do so in the near future. However, Friedman does deal specifically with some of his arguments in Who Wrote the Bible? such as why the editors, and the final redactor (who Friedman hypothesizes to be Ezra himself) would allow contradiction, and others.

Also, the 'traditional view of the Jews' is relatively late (appearing in the Second Temple period), is backed by no literary evidence, and is far removed enough from the time Moses would have lived to be traditionally irrelevant.

But this doesn't make sense. Why would the generation that supposedly forged the additions to the Pentateuch be the same that held its entire Mosaic authorship? Josiah's reforms were based on the Book of the Law and in Ezra and Nehemiah's (admittedly post-captivity) time they were referred to as Moses' law.

An entire generation didn't forge an 'addition' to the Pentateuch. This 'generation' (which is limited to one man or a handful of men, who were probably scribes or priests or Ezra) compiled the Pentateuch. Each strand could have been attributed to Moses and constituted alternate histories of Moses, etc. During the return from the Exile, 'Ezra' (I'll use his name as an eponym for the redactor/s) brought the people (many from all twelve tribes) together and reconciled them in part by compiling their alternative histories, and commanding them to keep it. They were therefore called the 'book of Moses'. This phrase in itself which is found in the books of Ezra and Nehemiah doesn't even have to mean that Moses wrote it...only that he is the leading figurehead in the books. Belief in Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch could have come a little later.

This however is the formative and foundational philosophy that seems to unjustifiably twist people toward a disposition of accepting the DH. Not in all circumstances, because not all arguments rest on the supernatural interpretation of a passage (one that does however would be the law coming from God on Mt. Sinai - an absolutely pivotal event for the law of Moses), but it surely helps it along.

What 'God' would or would not have done is irrelevant to lower and higher criticism or the study of history.

[quote:d36d8]No ANE document treats these different names comparative to the way the different names for the Israelite deity are treated in the Pentateuch.

Such as? How are they treated in the Pentateuch? What differences in usage are you noting?[/quote:d36d8]

Doublets, entire narrative sections which stand on their own, etc...I've seen no ANE document that resembles anything like it. Further more, some narratives in the Pentateuch are 'speckled' with both names interlaced throughout that particular narrative section. There's just no method to this madness attributed to a single author.

I'm not so sure about that. Now of course in all circumstances the use of the name cannot automatically imply an interpretive element, but I have read a book that convincingly showed me distinctive themes tied to 7 of God's names in the OT: Yahweh, Elohim, Adonai, El Elyon, El Shaddai, El Olam, and Yahweh Sabaoth.

And it also deals with the more complex structure of the ideas when two or more of the names are used together (most commonly Yahweh Elohim), but evaluates it in context of its surrounding usage (doesn't just isolate the single verse, but notes how the same name is used consistently around it thematically). I think Genesis 1 & 2 fit the bill of how I laid it out before. But that's just me.

Genesis i & ii contradict each other and reflect different concerns unrelated to which name is used for 'God' (Priestly = perhaps a liturgical etiology; Jahwist = rehashed myth).

I don't mean to be aggravating, but I'm still not seeing how you disproved my suggestion.

I disproved your suggestion quite easily. You argued that the usage of different names for 'God' applied to different topical matter, etc. The presence of numerous doublets disproves that opinion. If there are two stories in the Pentateuch dealing with the same thing--let's say the covenant between Yahweh and Abraham about his future descendants--but both stories use different names, then obviously which name is used is irrelevant to the topic.

Ah, but here is a consequence of the philosophical position I mentioned above - due to denying the supernatural element (most importantly God at Mt. Sinai). You are allowing this philosophy to drive you into making a paradigm in which you must divide certain ideas to different times in an "evolutionary timeline" for it to make sense to you, which is completely baseless regardless of questions that there may be based on lost history which we cannot recover of when and where the books were composed. Too many people make too much of Israel's periods of idolatry to try to "prove" that that was their original worship and only later consolidated it to monotheism (which they claim Josiah had a big hand in). I say that is an unfounded assumption, and that it very well could have happened just as the Bible tells us it historically happened: They were given their law in the wilderness, once they got into the land they forsook it and adopted the local religions - transgressing against God, and after a series of God's providential acts of using Judges and Kings to reign over the people worked out the struggle to restore true obedience to God by the law until Jesus came.

If you're content to believe whatever 'supernatural' thing the bible says happened by default, then that's just you. However, reconstruction of history is based upon probability. 'Supernatural' events don't probably happen. And in order for us to--by irrational default--just 'accept' what your holy text tells you, we'd have to explain who this 'god' is of yours working behind the scenes, and historically there's no way to test that. The problem with your argument against alleged 'anti-supernaturalism' is that you don't actually mean it in general. You're just making that claim because you're defending your holy book. I could claim anti-supernaturalism for every history book that claims the epics of Zeus, etc., are 'mythological'. I could also say the same for the Koran and for every other holy book and historical religious tradition in existence.


Kind regards,
E.L.B.
 
wavy said:
I have finished with Fernandes (points 12-15) and am ready to continue below:

Thanks wavy. :)

I have yet to read his aforementioned book. Perhaps I'll do so in the near future. However, Friedman does deal specifically with some of his arguments in Who Wrote the Bible? such as why the editors, and the final redactor (who Friedman hypothesizes to be Ezra himself) would allow contradiction, and others.

If possible it would be nice to see some highlights of that argument. At this point I must pose the question: what makes your source credible? It seems like the basic assumption among many is that if a person supports the DH (whether strongy or weakly) the person is credible, but if someone does not support the DH (whether strongly or weakly) they are an incredible source - which simply would not be a fair assumption. There are scholars who do not hold to the DH which are quite comptent and able scholars, and to be dismissive of them would be a shame. That being said, I still will try to extend to Friedman the same courtesy and give him a fair evaluation on his own arguements, but surely he isn't a maverick and surely he cites previous sources that he depends on for his points??? If he does cite anyone (especially notable), who is it? This would help me understand his arguements more.


wavy said:
An entire generation didn't forge an 'addition' to the Pentateuch. This 'generation' (which is limited to one man or a handful of men, who were probably scribes or priests or Ezra) compiled the Pentateuch. Each strand could have been attributed to Moses and constituted alternate histories of Moses, etc. During the return from the Exile, 'Ezra' (I'll use his name as an eponym for the redactor/s) brought the people (many from all twelve tribes) together and reconciled them in part by compiling their alternative histories, and commanding them to keep it. They were therefore called the 'book of Moses'. This phrase in itself which is found in the books of Ezra and Nehemiah doesn't even have to mean that Moses wrote it...only that he is the leading figurehead in the books. Belief in Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch could have come a little later.

You'll have to define "compiled" for me, because even Jews believe that Ezra established the OT canon by placing the books together. Now however if you meant what it looks like you are suggesting, and you are saying that Ezra gathered a vast sum of materials before him and compiled them into several books, etc. (and added finishing touches to blend them together) then that would be the view of the Fragmentary Hypothesis (FH) - in agreement with Whybray, who rejects the DH for the FH.

What gets me about the DH is the seperating of certain pasages by occurances of specific theme, topic, etc. according to various "source characteristics" and then citing examples of those certain source's "writings" for support that they belong only to that source (circular reasoning)! Since that sentance might be a little confusing, I'll give an example: On YouTube there is a video on the DH and the guy on it reads an excerpt from Friedman's book, and it said something similar to that "in J God only appears in manifestations, in P only in voice, in E..., etc" and said something about each of the occurances of the different methods of appearance line up with the various "sources" (like saying "Amazing how all the voice passages are in P but no where else!"), yet who do you think assigned them there in the first place?

I've picked up a few books by people who support the DH in my time and I've even seen DH scholars debate each other over which "source" it belongs to, where one said "So & so is clearly mistaken here when they assign this to J, for it clearly belongs to E" etc, etc. In my mind it seems chaotic and arbitrary, completely unprovable, and by no means has reached a unanimous consensus. I'll need some real convincing that the DH holds any weight. Positing contradictions is one thing, but positing the DH is quite another.

And apparently Friedman has not gone entirely uncriticised. From this link on his book it says:

Scholars as eminent as Baruch Halpern and Michael D. Coogan (editor of The New Oxford Annotated Bible) welcomed "The Bible with Sources Revealed" as an indespensible teaching tool; nevertheless, Friedman's departures from Wellhausen have been criticised by his professional colleagues on several grounds, not least for ignoring all other models and all advances in scholarship outside his preferred documentary model: "It is basic for the understanding of biblical literary history that the Supplementary Hypothesis is the 'normal hypothesis' (even within the Pentateuch) and that the Documentary Hypothesis (i.e., the fusion of two literary sources) is only a notable exception." More specifically, he was criticised for ignoring evidence that P did not precede Deuteronomy, for an arbitrary approach to his assignment of sources, and for failing to note or argue with scholarship that does not support his argument.

And so now we have another arguement, this time for the Supplementary Hypothesis (SH). So now we have three competing theories (this was mentioned in passing in the quote I gave earlier on Whybray): The DH, the SH, and the FH. Which is it?

wavy said:
What 'God' would or would not have done is irrelevant to lower and higher criticism or the study of history.

It's important how the Israelites beleived/understood/said that they experienced it, because it effects the time line needed for the evolutionary model and sequence of JEDP, which Friedman actually "messed up" by making it JEPD. Apparently the order and sequence is quite crucial, and if the Israelites "experienced" (how ever in form criticism they want to interpret that) the giving of the law on Mt. Sinai it makes all the difference if they had a fuller concept of the law at that early date, which could support larger and larger portions of unity in the Pentateuch and at an earlier date.

You have to remember also, the entire nation of Israel (the Bible says) saw God decend on Mt. Sinai (and with great fear and terror - as is later recalled often), and thereafter Moses made it a commandment for them to tell their children of what had happened in the wilderness, and so this tradition was born very early and on a national level, not by a few late redactors.

wavy said:
Doublets, entire narrative sections which stand on their own, etc...I've seen no ANE document that resembles anything like it. Further more, some narratives in the Pentateuch are 'speckled' with both names interlaced throughout that particular narrative section. There's just no method to this madness attributed to a single author.

We have yet to see that. Kitchen cites examples of ANE literature which he says contains similar phenomenon to the Bible's doublets, stylistic differences, etc. (according to the review on His book). In the mean time until that book can be shipped to me I looked as much as I could on an example and one site gave it to me:

Professor Kenneth Kitchen of the University of Liverpool has noted, “stylistic differences are meaningless†(1966, p. 118). Such differences may as much indicate a variance in the subject addressed as the suggestion of multiple authors. On the basis of archaeological evidence, Kitchen has shown that the “stylistic†theory simply is not credible. For example, a biographical inscription of Uni, an Egyptian official who lived about 2400 B.C., reflects at least four different styles, and yet no one denies the unity of its authorship (Kitchen, 1966, p. 125). (source)

This seems to be the same example noted in wikipedia that they said he gave, and Kitchen is a bit in his element on that, being an Egyptologist and all. Also in the P.S. statement I gave a while back I supplied three links (two on JSTOR) - and it is unfortunate I just noticed that I can't access them at home (nor you I presume) since I accessed them at my university and they have a subscription to JSTOR which allows me to look at them (maybe I can save them as a PDF and e-mail those to you as well) - and one link on that book Before Abraham Was (according to the review on JSTOR - I'll try to get the details to you when I can next access the article) Kikiwada provides yet another ANE text that he uses for a comparative model to Genesis 1-11 and shows the similarities in the structure. So I'm thinking that this isn't a whimsical claim, but that real scholars have put this idea forth in the past (40+ years).

Along with that, the scan of the pages I sent you (which you will hopefully get) one of the pages also states (although a very general statment), as I have seen many other places, that the DH disregards examples of ANE literary style. I don't think that a group of fundamentalists woke up one day and just invented this claim from thin air (and Kikiwada is apparently no fundamentalist - as the first link [which should work for you - just not the other two] in that P.S. above says). I think that there is a real belief that ancient semitic parallelism and literary style, which was not as well researched when Welhausen was around, has now supplanted many arguements and base-points for the DH.

And coming back to asking the reliability of your source, to flip the burden of proof around on it, does Friedman or any other JEDP author you know make the statement that "there are no ANE examples comparable to the Bible's doublets, parallelism, stylistic differences, etc." (or anything to that effect)? In other words, do they pre-emptively deny what I am trying to put forth to you now, that there are infact ANE examples that can explain it as a more common literary device? If so I would like to see their arguement for that.

I look forward to your responses.

wavy said:
Genesis i & ii contradict each other and reflect different concerns unrelated to which name is used for 'God' (Priestly = perhaps a liturgical etiology; Jahwist = rehashed myth).

I disproved your suggestion quite easily. You argued that the usage of different names for 'God' applied to different topical matter, etc. The presence of numerous doublets disproves that opinion. If there are two stories in the Pentateuch dealing with the same thing--let's say the covenant between Yahweh and Abraham about his future descendants--but both stories use different names, then obviously which name is used is irrelevant to the topic.

I believe that it is incorect to assert that. As others have noticed when trying to explain this Elohim is a general name for God but Yahweh his proper name, and in the Bible's context it does indeed carry theological significance.

In that last source in which I just quoted Kitchen's argument about the Egyptian official Uni's biographical account, it continues it's arguement and states something similar to what I argued:

The plural authorship of the “creation accounts†is supposed to be indicated by the use of two names for deity in these sections. “God†(Elohim) is employed in Genesis 1, whereas “Jehovah†(Yahweh) is found in 2:4ff. In response it may be observed, first, that solid biblical research has clearly shown the use of different appellations for deity to possibly reflect a purposeful theological emphasis. For example, Elohim, which suggests “strength,†exalts God as the mighty Creator. Yahweh is the name that expresses the essential moral and spiritual nature of deity, particularly in terms of His relationship to the nation of Israel (see Stone, 1944, p. 17).

In the book that I read by Andrew Jukes called The Names of God (who I quoted from in the OP of my Holy Trinity thread) he shows the same things but far deeper and more convincingly. It was that book that I was refering two when I said I read a study on the usages of 7 of God's names in the OT (Yahweh, Elohim, Adonai, El Elyon, El Shaddai, El Olam, and Yahweh Sabaoth). Jukes shows beyond a shadow of a doubt a consistant theological usage. You can't just say "Whoops" well I guess they just dropped Yahweh in there instead of Elohim and didn't notice.

Although it is a different arguement, something similar has been argued where it has been charged that the Bible incorporated a pagan text to Baal and simply substituted Yahweh's name in for Baal, but I have more than once source which shows the differences (while acknolweding the similarities in form and even wordage) in how it is applied and the theological themes, where even if it culturally borrowed from the common literature of the day how it was yet theologically distinctive.

So you can't convince me that the names don't matter and are not significant. Names (and shem in Hebrew has more nuances and connotations than just a "name") meant far more to Semitic people than a name does to us today, and often connoted their character. I say that they were knowledgable and conscious of their different uses of God's names, at least to some extent, and that they did have distinguishing characteristics (and sometimes God revealed His name in conjunction with a special circumstance or revelation, thus very topically and theologically relevant - for example Genesis 17:1 is where God first reveals himself as El Shaddai).

wavy said:
If you're content to believe whatever 'supernatural' thing the bible says happened by default, then that's just you. However, reconstruction of history is based upon probability. 'Supernatural' events don't probably happen. And in order for us to--by irrational default--just 'accept' what your holy text tells you, we'd have to explain who this 'god' is of yours working behind the scenes, and historically there's no way to test that. The problem with your argument against alleged 'anti-supernaturalism' is that you don't actually mean it in general. You're just making that claim because you're defending your holy book. I could claim anti-supernaturalism for every history book that claims the epics of Zeus, etc., are 'mythological'. I could also say the same for the Koran and for every other holy book and historical religious tradition in existence.

Yes faith will ultimately divide our world views. But to take a tangent on this immediately, since you mentioned the Koran, in one of the JSTOR reviews (once again unfortunate my links won't work for you or me from home) I posted a link to (atleast I think it was one of those links - I've been looking at so many that I loose track) noted an objection given in the book which it was reviewing, that said a similar study was conducted of the Koran and some chapters were found with only one usage/form of a name for Allah, while another used only used a different one, and at other times mixed them (just as the Bible does) and that yet no one has ever doubted Mohammed's authorship of the Koran. An interesting objection.

P.S. That's all for now until I can get some more things sorted out, like how to get those JSTOR links to you and hopefully get those books in soon so I can make direct quotes. I'll be gone most this weekend traveling (and fishing :)) so I might not get back around here till Sunday afternoon or Monday. Just letting you know.

God Bless,

~Josh
 
cybershark5886 said:
If possible it would be nice to see some highlights of that argument.

An extract from the book Who Wrote the Bible?:

How could the redactor have left any of these [the different sources] out? The issue again was successful promulgation...Besides there were groups who supported these various texts...They could still raise their voices and protest the authenticity of a Torah that did not include their texts. Indeed, the combination of all the sources in this period may have been precisely as a compromise among various factions of Israelite-Judean society. (ibid. pp. 225-26, brackets mine)

He goes on the argue that Ezra had to find a way to combine the sources without 'intolerable contradictions'. To a Jew during this period, I don't believe they would have been as attentive as we are today in pointing them out. I'm sure Jews throughout the centuries noticed, for example, that Genesis i & ii contradict each other at points. The LXX and the Samaritan Pentateuch actually altered the text to eliminate the chronology contradiction with the reading (in Gen i.19): Out of the ground the LORD God further formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky. But arguably in Ezra's days, at a time when strict notions of 'canon' and 'inerrancy' (which is really a Christian notion) did not exist, the Jews would not care about contradictory minutiae even if they did notice it.

At this point I must pose the question: what makes your source credible? It seems like the basic assumption among many is that if a person supports the DH (whether strongy or weakly) the person is credible, but if someone does not support the DH (whether strongly or weakly) they are an incredible source - which simply would not be a fair assumption. There are scholars who do not hold to the DH which are quite comptent and able scholars, and to be dismissive of them would be a shame. That being said, I still will try to extend to Friedman the same courtesy and give him a fair evaluation on his own arguements, but surely he isn't a maverick and surely he cites previous sources that he depends on for his points??? If he does cite anyone (especially notable), who is it? This would help me understand his arguements more.

Surely you can do your own research on Richard Friedman, who earned a doctorate at Harvard, holds the Katzin Chair at the University of California, was a visiting scholar at Oxford and Cambridge, learned under Frank Moore Cross (the name speaks for itself, and he refers to Frank Moore Cross' book often: Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic) and is a colleague of scholars like Baruch Halpern (also mentioned below in one of your wiki-quotations). I never said or implied that men who support the DH are credible and men who don't are not. There are plenty of fine conservative scholars who (imo, apart from stubbornly embracing Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch, among other things) have a major impact in the field of biblical studies.

What do you want me to give you? His entire listed bibliography?

You'll have to define "compiled" for me, because even Jews believe that Ezra established the OT canon by placing the books together. Now however if you meant what it looks like you are suggesting, and you are saying that Ezra gathered a vast sum of materials before him and compiled them into several books, etc. (and added finishing touches to blend them together) then that would be the view of the Fragmentary Hypothesis (FH) - in agreement with Whybray, who rejects the DH for the FH.

No, I think you're misunderstanding both. The DH has always assumed that a redactor collated the different sources of the Pentateuch. And there's no evidence that Ezra established an 'OT canon', so what modern traditional Jews may believe is irrelevant.

What gets me about the DH is the seperating of certain pasages by occurances of specific theme, topic, etc. according to various "source characteristics" and then citing examples of those certain source's "writings" for support that they belong only to that source (circular reasoning)! Since that sentance might be a little confusing, I'll give an example: On YouTube there is a video on the DH and the guy on it reads an excerpt from Friedman's book, and it said something similar to that "in J God only appears in manifestations, in P only in voice, in E..., etc" and said something about each of the occurances of the different methods of appearance line up with the various "sources" (like saying "Amazing how all the voice passages are in P but no where else!"), yet who do you think assigned them there in the first place?

No, proponents of the DH do not just separate 'passages' (by which I assume you mean 'sources', namely, JEPD) according to whether or not some feature is contained in one source and not another. That's a straw man. Besides, it would be impossible to assign different features to different sources unless you had already identified those sources. The distinct features of each are just further confirmation of the theory. I would advise you to read R. E. Friedman's Who Wrote the Bible?

I've picked up a few books by people who support the DH in my time and I've even seen DH scholars debate each other over which "source" it belongs to, where one said "So & so is clearly mistaken here when they assign this to J, for it clearly belongs to E" etc, etc. In my mind it seems chaotic and arbitrary, completely unprovable, and by no means has reached a unanimous consensus. I'll need some real convincing that the DH holds any weight. Positing contradictions is one thing, but positing the DH is quite another.

This is just irrelevant. Scholars debate over any and everything (whether they reject Mosaic authorship or not, or whether they accept the DH or not), but the DH is not the 'chaotic and arbitrary' theory your making it out to be...not anymore than any other field of scholarship. And no, it's not provable (like many things we believe), but even so, Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch is even less provable.

And apparently Friedman has not gone entirely uncriticised. [snipped]

Every scholar is criticised...

The main disagreement here between DH proponents, like Friedman, and other DH proponents is over whether or not the source 'P' is post-exilic or pre-exilic or part post-/pre-exilic (Friedman maintains the latter).

And so now we have another arguement, this time for the Supplementary Hypothesis (SH). So now we have three competing theories (this was mentioned in passing in the quote I gave earlier on Whybray): The DH, the SH, and the FH. Which is it?

I would hardly say that these arguments are 'competing' (the DH simply overwhelms the other two). Also, there are hundreds of Christian factions and many more uncounted additional cults...which is it? I guess I'll just dismiss it all as chaotic and arbitrary. You see, this reasoning gets us nowhere.

wavy said:
What 'God' would or would not have done is irrelevant to lower and higher criticism or the study of history.

It's important how the Israelites beleived/understood/said that they experienced it, because it effects the time line needed for the evolutionary model and sequence of JEDP, which Friedman actually "messed up" by making it JEPD. Apparently the order and sequence is quite crucial, and if the Israelites "experienced" (how ever in form criticism they want to interpret that) the giving of the law on Mt. Sinai it makes all the difference if they had a fuller concept of the law at that early date, which could support larger and larger portions of unity in the Pentateuch and at an earlier date.

I haven't the slightest inkling as to what this is supposed to signify. What are you saying? This doesn't make any sense. It seems as if you're saying: 'It would make more sense if you just believe what the text says because the Israelites said they believed it and it would only make sense to believe it if it actually happened at the time they said it did'.

You have to remember also, the entire nation of Israel (the Bible says) saw God decend on Mt. Sinai (and with great fear and terror - as is later recalled often), and thereafter Moses made it a commandment for them to tell their children of what had happened in the wilderness, and so this tradition was born very early and on a national level, not by a few late redactors.

Using the bible to support the bible is circular reasoning. Do you have a written testimony signed by all the hands who allegedly saw these events? If not, this is meaningless. You're basically saying that because the bible narrates it, it probably is true.

We have yet to see that. Kitchen cites examples of ANE literature which he says contains similar phenomenon to the Bible's doublets, stylistic differences, etc. (according to the review on His book). In the mean time until that book can be shipped to me I looked as much as I could on an example and one site gave it to me:

Professor Kenneth Kitchen of the University of Liverpool has noted, “stylistic differences are meaningless†(1966, p. 118). Such differences may as much indicate a variance in the subject addressed as the suggestion of multiple authors. On the basis of archaeological evidence, Kitchen has shown that the “stylistic†theory simply is not credible. For example, a biographical inscription of Uni, an Egyptian official who lived about 2400 B.C., reflects at least four different styles, and yet no one denies the unity of its authorship (Kitchen, 1966, p. 125). (source)

A review from the 'apologeticspress.org' is obviously biased. I withhold judgment until I see evidence. Until then, these are nothing but apologists giving each other high fives.

This seems to be the same example noted in wikipedia that they said he gave, and Kitchen is a bit in his element on that, being an Egyptologist and all. Also in the P.S. statement I gave a while back I supplied three links (two on JSTOR) - and it is unfortunate I just noticed that I can't access them at home (nor you I presume) since I accessed them at my university and they have a subscription to JSTOR which allows me to look at them (maybe I can save them as a PDF and e-mail those to you as well) - and one link on that book Before Abraham Was (according to the review on JSTOR - I'll try to get the details to you when I can next access the article) Kikiwada provides yet another ANE text that he uses for a comparative model to Genesis 1-11 and shows the similarities in the structure. So I'm thinking that this isn't a whimsical claim, but that real scholars have put this idea forth in the past (40+ years).

I have full access to the JSTOR, so there's no need to worry. ;-)

Along with that, the scan of the pages I sent you (which you will hopefully get) one of the pages also states (although a very general statment), as I have seen many other places, that the DH disregards examples of ANE literary style. I don't think that a group of fundamentalists woke up one day and just invented this claim from thin air (and Kikiwada is apparently no fundamentalist - as the first link [which should work for you - just not the other two] in that P.S. above says). I think that there is a real belief that ancient semitic parallelism and literary style, which was not as well researched when Welhausen was around, has now supplanted many arguements and base-points for the DH.

And I don't think these types of arguments are significant. I'd advise further research into the DH because DH proponents don't just sit by while all this (however insignificant I believe it to be) is going down.

And coming back to asking the reliability of your source, to flip the burden of proof around on it, does Friedman or any other JEDP author you know make the statement that "there are no ANE examples comparable to the Bible's doublets, parallelism, stylistic differences, etc." (or anything to that effect)? In other words, do they pre-emptively deny what I am trying to put forth to you now, that there are infact ANE examples that can explain it as a more common literary device? If so I would like to see their arguement for that.

Not specifically--none that I can think of anyway, although I am hoping to pick up an article by Friedman entitled 'Some Recent Non-Arguments Concerning the Documentary Hypothesis' where he deals with objections.

I believe that it is incorect to assert that. As others have noticed when trying to explain this Elohim is a general name for God but Yahweh his proper name, and in the Bible's context it does indeed carry theological significance.

In that last source in which I just quoted Kitchen's argument about the Egyptian official Uni's biographical account, it continues it's arguement and states something similar to what I argued:

The plural authorship of the “creation accounts†is supposed to be indicated by the use of two names for deity in these sections. “God†(Elohim) is employed in Genesis 1, whereas “Jehovah†(Yahweh) is found in 2:4ff. In response it may be observed, first, that solid biblical research has clearly shown the use of different appellations for deity to possibly reflect a purposeful theological emphasis. For example, Elohim, which suggests “strength,†exalts God as the mighty Creator. Yahweh is the name that expresses the essential moral and spiritual nature of deity, particularly in terms of His relationship to the nation of Israel (see Stone, 1944, p. 17).

In the book that I read by Andrew Jukes called The Names of God (who I quoted from in the OP of my Holy Trinity thread) he shows the same things but far deeper and more convincingly. It was that book that I was refering two when I said I read a study on the usages of 7 of God's names in the OT (Yahweh, Elohim, Adonai, El Elyon, El Shaddai, El Olam, and Yahweh Sabaoth). Jukes shows beyond a shadow of a doubt a consistant theological usage. You can't just say "Whoops" well I guess they just dropped Yahweh in there instead of Elohim and didn't notice.

Although it is a different arguement, something similar has been argued where it has been charged that the Bible incorporated a pagan text to Baal and simply substituted Yahweh's name in for Baal, but I have more than once source which shows the differences (while acknolweding the similarities in form and even wordage) in how it is applied and the theological themes, where even if it culturally borrowed from the common literature of the day how it was yet theologically distinctive.

So you can't convince me that the names don't matter and are not significant. Names (and shem in Hebrew has more nuances and connotations than just a "name") meant far more to Semitic people than a name does to us today, and often connoted their character. I say that they were knowledgable and conscious of their different uses of God's names, at least to some extent, and that they did have distinguishing characteristics (and sometimes God revealed His name in conjunction with a special circumstance or revelation, thus very topically and theologically relevant - for example Genesis 17:1 is where God first reveals himself as El Shaddai).

Sounds like theological garbage rather than a refutation of of the DH. The doublet argument stands. Just read the flood story, for example, and honestly tell me you believe that a single author alternated within short spans of a few words two different names for 'God' because he wanted to stress some 'theological' aspect of 'God'? You accuse the DH of being 'arbitrary', but what you propose as an alternative is sheerly nonsensical. And again, this entire criticism of the DH is based upon a straw man--that the DH is based solely upon the names used for 'God' in the different narrative divisions.

Yes faith will ultimately divide our world views. But to take a tangent on this immediately, since you mentioned the Koran, in one of the JSTOR reviews (once again unfortunate my links won't work for you or me from home) I posted a link to (atleast I think it was one of those links - I've been looking at so many that I loose track) noted an objection given in the book which it was reviewing, that said a similar study was conducted of the Koran and some chapters were found with only one usage/form of a name for Allah, while another used only used a different one, and at other times mixed them (just as the Bible does) and that yet no one has ever doubted Mohammed's authorship of the Koran. An interesting objection.

See above about the straw man, and yes, I've heard this long before we ever started to discuss it. I'll investigate it further or find an argument that does before I make judgments on this type of objection's validity.

P.S. That's all for now until I can get some more things sorted out, like how to get those JSTOR links to you and hopefully get those books in soon so I can make direct quotes. I'll be gone most this weekend traveling (and fishing :)) so I might not get back around here till Sunday afternoon or Monday. Just letting you know.

No problem, take your time, and again, I have full access to the JSTOR through the University of California.


Kind regards,
Eric
 
Thanks for replying wavy.

Oh, good, I'm glad you have access to JSTOR. In that case I wrote to you earlier:

P.S. However, I did want to throw one more thing your way once you get done with that. Check out this book review here. These two authors also took on the DH and were not fundamentalist scholars. Another review of that book is here and here (on JSTOR - hope the links work for you).

Those links speak of Kikawada and Quinn's book Before Abraham Was and the last link gives a review that states (on the first page, 2nd column) that Kikawada gives two examples of ANE doublets specifically in creation accounts: _Enki & Ninmah_ and _Atrahasis_. See the review there.

Now following up on that I looked around on JSTOR and found this article on Atrahasis which on the last page (marked #155 - click back to see the beginning) it mentions that Atrahasis borrowed from previous creation stories, namely the Gilgamesh Epic and "Enki and Ninmah", and also seems to be citing another example of a double creation when it notes that in a Babylonian creation text that, "Ea nips off the clay and Aruru fashions it". Now, of course, the article would make the statement "Like Genesis, Atrahasis is the product of a long process of development", but regardless of its conclusions it clearly acknowledges the other sources which it pulls from (which in turn have doublets themselves), and even mentions a doublet in the Gilgamesh Epic, "In the creation of Enkidu in the Gilgamesh Epic, long recognized as a doublet to the creation of man..." Enki and Ninmah also has a doublet, and you can find some results on Google by typing "documentary hypothesis Enki Ninmah" which cite it as a doublet. One site cites Kikawada again, summarizing,

The Double Creation of Mankind? The Genesis account as it stands mentions the creation of mankind twice, in 1:27 and 2:7. Kikawada hence suggests that there are two creations of mankind in Genesis, comparing Genesis 1-2 with the myth of Enki and Ninmah and the "Atra-Hasis Epic" (I 1-351) (Kikawada 1983; Kikawada and Quinn 1985: 39ff). According to him, Genesis 1 refers to "the first creation of mankind," while Genesis 2 refers to "the second creation of mankind," namely the creation of the specific persons Adam and Eve, and these two Biblical creation accounts are parallel to each other.

It should be noted, however, that in Genesis those "double creation stories" deal with the same topic, the origin of humankind ('adam), and do not necessarily refer to "two" separate creative actions regarding human creation. The debate is whether the reason for this twofold description is (1) that there were actually two independent creation stories of the same event or (2) that there were actually two separate creation acts or (3) that a technique of narrative discourse was used that recounts one and the same event from two different viewpoints. To this third possibility I now turn.

And another site that quotes Kikawada and Quinn also states about Genesis under the heading "literary context in ANE":

Repetition with variation/detail - the Hebrew way (can also be found in other ANE religious texts--Akkadian and Ugaritic)

Akkadian being the Atrahasis story, and presumaby Ugaritic has the Gilgamesh epic, leaving the Sumerian with Enki and Ninmah - three stories that have doublets. Kikawada, though I disagree with the conclusion, sees Genesis as formed out of this "cultural tradition" for creation accounts with doublets and says,

So the parallels observed between Atrahasis and Genesis 1-11 are no longer surprising. We find similar parallels between Atrahasis and other primeval histories (e.g. Old Iranian Flood Tale, Zoroastrian tale of Yima, primeval greek history). These similar parallels make us feel encouraged that perhaps Genesis 1-11, while drawn from a common stock of tales, was written as a dissent from the civilized pragmatism of the older Atrahasis tradition (source: same link as above).

-----------------------

At this point it's not the conclusions I'm worried about arguing, but rather first establishing that there are infact ANE parallels that have doublets, and specifically with creation stories. And it seems that there are three that can be investigated from the information above: Gilgamesh Epic, Atrahasis, and Enki & Ninmah. Also possibly that other "Babylonian" text about Ea and Aruru is a fourth one.

I hope these sources are adequate for you.

P.S. If you do a search for Enki & Ninmah you can read the text for yourself. I read it and it was - what I first noticed - very haphazard (unlike the Genesis story which doesn't have all that introductory "goading of a grumpy god" and "competeing gods" mumbo jumbo). Enki and Ninmah both make human beings (one after the other) and try to out-do each other by improving on the others work, the result is some good humans and others that were created already crippled or with strange medical disorders, etc. At any rate, there has been literary criticism on these texts and scholars seem to have noticed some patterns in them which they would term doublets. Also you could hardly criticize formation of doublets in the Bible if the Bible were the only (and anomalous) place in ancient literature in which they were found, so obviously doublets are encountered in ANE literature as well, else the Bible would be unique indeed concerning a literary feature that no one had ever used before.

I'll try to come back later and go back to answer your initial rebuttals to my first source and then return to our most recent discussion.

~Josh
 
I just found a blog which I thought you might find interesting of a guy who actually thinks the basic premise of the DH is plausible (in which he says it's obvious some later notes were added - and even I'll agree to that - I'd just argue that it's in the minority & very few of them), yet critiques it on it's own grounds. It has a part two which you should probably read and he voices a sentiment which I hold as well where he has reservations of the invoking of the "magical redactor" almost deus ex machina to save the day and reconcile inconsistancies in the division of JEDP, and he gives examples. It would be interesting to see your replies, since I think that guy struck a reasonable tone (not too accusative - but rather curious and moderately critical in nature).

Anyway, I'll give you time to catch up and when I get more time myself I'll go back and try to address your previous posts as well, and perhaps start another thread for the ones that fall strictly into the "contradictions" category.

~Josh
 
Thanks for the replies. I'll read up on your sources and finish reading your scans you emailed to me and get back to you. I've been busy. I'm working 12+ hour shifts 6 days a week as a manager at Family Dollar and hardly find time to do things anymore.


Kind regards,
~Eric
 
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