Prophet David's After Death Experience

[Alfred Persson]

[#E]
You have brought up my soul from Sheol
2 O LORD my God, I cried to you for help, and you have healed me.
3 O LORD, you have brought up my soul from Sheol (07585 שְׁאוֹל she’owl); you restored me to life (02421 חָיַה chayah) from among those who go down to the pit (0953 בּוֹר bowr).
4 Sing praises to the LORD, O you his saints, and give thanks to his holy name. (Ps. 30:2-4 ESV)

Notes:
חִיָּה (never: to call into being out of nothing) always means to restore to life that which has apparently or really succumbed to death.-Keil, C. F., & Delitzsch, F. (1996). Commentary on the Old Testament (Vol. 5, p. 240). Hendrickson.

The MT reads מִיוֹרְדֵי־בוֹר (mîyôreḏê-ḇôr lit., “from the ones going down into the pit”), and the Qere suggests מִיָּרְדִי (mîyorḏî, “from my going down”). In view of the usage of this phrase in Ps. 28:1 and the unusual grammatical form of the Kethiv it is preferable to accept the MT without emendation. MT Masoretic text.-VanGemeren, W. A. (1991). Psalms. In F. E. Gaebelein (Ed.), The Expositor’s Bible Commentary: Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs (Vol. 5, p. 259). Zondervan Publishing House.

The “pit” is where those without hope go (Is. 38:18; Ez. 26:20; 31:14, 16; 32:18, 24, 29-32; Ps. 28:1 30:4; 88:5; 143:7).

David had what is today called an "After Death Experience". He was spared dying the death of the wicked i.e., the second death from which there is no return to life. David literally says his soul was restored and brought up from Sheol from among the dammed going down into the pit.

Some claim this is figurative language, but that would be deceptive. If God didn’t literally rescue David from Sheol, the entire is misleading. Using figurative language to describe what does not exist in reality damages the credibility of scripture. What in it could we trust, if such plain language doesn’t mean what it says? Moreover, extolling God for scenarios that are not true is dishonest, misleading others about the truth. Furthermore, inspiring belief in falsehood is what we expect from prophets of Satan, not God. Therefore, David’s claim of being restored to life in an After Death Experience proves postmortem salvation is taught in scripture.

 

[Free]

[#E]
You have brought up my soul from Sheol
2 O LORD my God, I cried to you for help, and you have healed me.
3 O LORD, you have brought up my soul from Sheol (07585 שְׁאוֹל she’owl); you restored me to life (02421 חָיַה chayah) from among those who go down to the pit (0953 בּוֹר bowr).
4 Sing praises to the LORD, O you his saints, and give thanks to his holy name. (Ps. 30:2-4 ESV)

Notes:
חִיָּה (never: to call into being out of nothing) always means to restore to life that which has apparently or really succumbed to death.-Keil, C. F., & Delitzsch, F. (1996). Commentary on the Old Testament (Vol. 5, p. 240). Hendrickson.

The MT reads מִיוֹרְדֵי־בוֹר (mîyôreḏê-ḇôr lit., “from the ones going down into the pit”), and the Qere suggests מִיָּרְדִי (mîyorḏî, “from my going down”). In view of the usage of this phrase in Ps. 28:1 and the unusual grammatical form of the Kethiv it is preferable to accept the MT without emendation. MT Masoretic text.-VanGemeren, W. A. (1991). Psalms. In F. E. Gaebelein (Ed.), The Expositor’s Bible Commentary: Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs (Vol. 5, p. 259). Zondervan Publishing House.

The “pit” is where those without hope go (Is. 38:18; Ez. 26:20; 31:14, 16; 32:18, 24, 29-32; Ps. 28:1 30:4; 88:5; 143:7).

David had what is today called an "After Death Experience". He was spared dying the death of the wicked i.e., the second death from which there is no return to life. David literally says his soul was restored and brought up from Sheol from among the dammed going down into the pit.

Some claim this is figurative language, but that would be deceptive. If God didn’t literally rescue David from Sheol, the entire is misleading. Using figurative language to describe what does not exist in reality damages the credibility of scripture. What in it could we trust, if such plain language doesn’t mean what it says? Moreover, extolling God for scenarios that are not true is dishonest, misleading others about the truth. Furthermore, inspiring belief in falsehood is what we expect from prophets of Satan, not God. Therefore, David’s claim of being restored to life in an After Death Experience proves postmortem salvation is taught in scripture.

It's poetry. There is no reason to believe it wasn't figurative, especially since there is nothing mentioned elsewhere about this. That should be the biggest clue. This would not be dishonest at all. It's about understanding how different genres in the Bible are to be interpreted.

But, David clearly suffered a lot of adversity and hardship, and whatever event David had in mind, it was likely that he thought he would die at the time, that there was no other way out. However, God delivered him from death.

Later in that same chapter:

Psa 30:7 By your favor, O LORD, you made my mountain stand strong; you hid your face; I was dismayed.
Psa 30:8 To you, O LORD, I cry, and to the Lord I plead for mercy:
Psa 30:9 “What profit is there in my death, if I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise you? Will it tell of your faithfulness?
Psa 30:10 Hear, O LORD, and be merciful to me! O LORD, be my helper!”
Psa 30:11 You have turned for me my mourning into dancing; you have loosed my sackcloth and clothed me with gladness,
Psa 30:12 that my glory may sing your praise and not be silent. O LORD my God, I will give thanks to you forever! (ESV)

Also, just two chapters before:

Psa 28:1 Of David. To you, O LORD, I call; my rock, be not deaf to me, lest, if you be silent to me, I become like those who go down to the pit.
Psa 28:2 Hear the voice of my pleas for mercy, when I cry to you for help, when I lift up my hands toward your most holy sanctuary.
Psa 28:3 Do not drag me off with the wicked, with the workers of evil, who speak peace with their neighbors while evil is in their hearts. (ESV)

Just poetry extolling God for his goodness and delivering him from certain death.

 

[Alfred Persson]

It's poetry. There is no reason to believe it wasn't figurative, especially since there is nothing mentioned elsewhere about this. That should be the biggest clue. This would not be dishonest at all. It's about understanding how different genres in the Bible are to be interpreted.

But, David clearly suffered a lot of adversity and hardship, and whatever event David had in mind, it was likely that he thought he would die at the time, that there was no other way out. However, God delivered him from death.

Later in that same chapter:

Psa 30:7 By your favor, O LORD, you made my mountain stand strong; you hid your face; I was dismayed.
Psa 30:8 To you, O LORD, I cry, and to the Lord I plead for mercy:
Psa 30:9 “What profit is there in my death, if I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise you? Will it tell of your faithfulness?
Psa 30:10 Hear, O LORD, and be merciful to me! O LORD, be my helper!”
Psa 30:11 You have turned for me my mourning into dancing; you have loosed my sackcloth and clothed me with gladness,
Psa 30:12 that my glory may sing your praise and not be silent. O LORD my God, I will give thanks to you forever! (ESV)

Also, just two chapters before:

Psa 28:1 Of David. To you, O LORD, I call; my rock, be not deaf to me, lest, if you be silent to me, I become like those who go down to the pit.
Psa 28:2 Hear the voice of my pleas for mercy, when I cry to you for help, when I lift up my hands toward your most holy sanctuary.
Psa 28:3 Do not drag me off with the wicked, with the workers of evil, who speak peace with their neighbors while evil is in their hearts. (ESV)

Just poetry extolling God for his goodness and delivering him from certain death.

Nothing mentioned elsewhere? What bible are you reading?
Various Scriptures where Postmortem Opportunity is explicit or implicit:

Dt. 32:39 [#A]; 1Sam. 2:6 [#B]; 2Sam. 22:5-7 [#C]; Ps. 16:10-11 [#D]; Ps. 30:3-6 [#E]; Ps. 40:1-3 [#F]; Ps. 49:12-15 [#G]; Ps. 56:13 [#H]; Ps. 68:18-20 [#I]; Ps. 69:13-18 [#J]; Ps. 71:19-23 [#K]; Ps. 86:13 [#L]; Ps. 102:18-22 [#M]; Ps. 116:1-9 [#N]; Hos. 13:14 [#O]; Jon. 2:1-10 [#P]; Zec. 9:9-11 [#Q]; Mt. 12:30-32[#R]; John 5:28-29[#S]; Rm. 11:25-36[#T]; 1 Pt. 3:18-22[#U]; 1 Pt. 4:6[#V]; 1 Cor. 5:5[#W]; Eph. 4:8-10[#I]; Heb. 9:27-28[#X]; Rev. 20:11-15[#Y];[#Z]

Poetry praising God for deliverance from Sheol would be deceptive if God didn't actually do it.

You cited two contexts which also teach deliverance from Sheol. David asks what point is there to his dying, becoming dust. God won't receive praise.

Psa 30:7 By your favor, O LORD, you made my mountain stand strong; you hid your face; I was dismayed.
Psa 30:8 To you, O LORD, I cry, and to the Lord I plead for mercy:
Psa 30:9 “What profit is there in my death, if I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise you? Will it tell of your faithfulness?
Psa 30:10 Hear, O LORD, and be merciful to me! O LORD, be my helper!”
Psa 30:11 You have turned for me my mourning into dancing; you have loosed my sackcloth and clothed me with gladness,
Psa 30:12 that my glory may sing your praise and not be silent. O LORD my God, I will give thanks to you forever! (ESV)

Then you cite David's pleas for mercy, that he not die the death of the wicked i.e., "the second death" from which there is no resurrection. If this is fantasy, then what else in scripture is mere fanciful poetry that we cannot take literally?

Psa 28:1 Of David. To you, O LORD, I call; my rock, be not deaf to me, lest, if you be silent to me, I become like those who go down to the pit.
Psa 28:2 Hear the voice of my pleas for mercy, when I cry to you for help, when I lift up my hands toward your most holy sanctuary.
Psa 28:3 Do not drag me off with the wicked, with the workers of evil, who speak peace with their neighbors while evil is in their hearts. (ESV)

 

[Alfred Persson]

This should be in apologetics. I am an apologist arguing against classic Catholic beliefs Protestants have modified, but essentially retained AGAINST the plain reading of scripture

 

[Free]

Nothing mentioned elsewhere? What bible are you reading?

Scripture. Listen to what I am saying. What David writes about in the Psalms has to do with things that he did or what happened to him. These things are written in other OT books, but there is nothing in any OT book that states David died and came back to life.

Various Scriptures where Postmortem Opportunity is explicit or implicit:

Dt. 32:39 [#A]; 1Sam. 2:6 [#B]; 2Sam. 22:5-7 [#C]; Ps. 16:10-11 [#D]; Ps. 30:3-6 [#E]; Ps. 40:1-3 [#F]; Ps. 49:12-15 [#G]; Ps. 56:13 [#H]; Ps. 68:18-20 [#I]; Ps. 69:13-18 [#J]; Ps. 71:19-23 [#K]; Ps. 86:13 [#L]; Ps. 102:18-22 [#M]; Ps. 116:1-9 [#N]; Hos. 13:14 [#O]; Jon. 2:1-10 [#P]; Zec. 9:9-11 [#Q]; Mt. 12:30-32[#R]; John 5:28-29[#S]; Rm. 11:25-36[#T]; 1 Pt. 3:18-22[#U]; 1 Pt. 4:6[#V]; 1 Cor. 5:5[#W]; Eph. 4:8-10[#I]; Heb. 9:27-28[#X]; Rev. 20:11-15[#Y];[#Z]

Poetry praising God for deliverance from Sheol would be deceptive if God didn't actually do it.

You cited two contexts which also teach deliverance from Sheol. David asks what point is there to his dying, becoming dust. God won't receive praise.

Psa 30:7 By your favor, O LORD, you made my mountain stand strong; you hid your face; I was dismayed.
Psa 30:8 To you, O LORD, I cry, and to the Lord I plead for mercy:
Psa 30:9 “What profit is there in my death, if I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise you? Will it tell of your faithfulness?
Psa 30:10 Hear, O LORD, and be merciful to me! O LORD, be my helper!”
Psa 30:11 You have turned for me my mourning into dancing; you have loosed my sackcloth and clothed me with gladness,
Psa 30:12 that my glory may sing your praise and not be silent. O LORD my God, I will give thanks to you forever! (ESV)

Then you cite David's pleas for mercy, that he not die the death of the wicked i.e., "the second death" from which there is no resurrection. If this is fantasy, then what else in scripture is mere fanciful poetry that we cannot take literally?

Psa 28:1 Of David. To you, O LORD, I call; my rock, be not deaf to me, lest, if you be silent to me, I become like those who go down to the pit.
Psa 28:2 Hear the voice of my pleas for mercy, when I cry to you for help, when I lift up my hands toward your most holy sanctuary.
Psa 28:3 Do not drag me off with the wicked, with the workers of evil, who speak peace with their neighbors while evil is in their hearts. (ESV)

There is nothing deceptive. Again, it's poetry that praises God for his deliverance from a variety of situations and trials.

This should be in apologetics. I am an apologist arguing against classic Catholic beliefs Protestants have modified, but essentially retained AGAINST the plain reading of scripture

There is no "postmortem opportunity" for salvation (Heb 9:27; Rev 20:11-15), so you aren't even arguing anything that is orthodox. Apologetics is a defense of the faith. What you are doing is theological polemics, amongst Christians.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Scripture. Listen to what I am saying. What David writes about in the Psalms has to do with things that he did or what happened to him. These things are written in other OT books, but there is nothing in any OT book that states David died and came back to life.


There is nothing deceptive. Again, it's poetry that praises God for his deliverance from a variety of situations and trials.


There is no "postmortem opportunity" for salvation (Heb 9:27; Rev 20:11-15), so you aren't even arguing anything that is orthodox. Apologetics is a defense of the faith. What you are doing is theological polemics, amongst Christians.

Scripture. Listen to what I am saying. What David writes about in the Psalms has to do with things that he did or what happened to him. These things are written in other OT books, but there is nothing in any OT book that states David died and came back to life.

I know what you are saying, most commentaries agree. I disagree.

The Jews of Christ's day believed in literal salvation from sheol. The NT explicitly states Christ preached to spirits in prison (1 Pet. 3:18-22), or that the Gospel is preached to the dead (1Pt. 4:6) or that after death there is a judgment and implies those who passed this judgment then eagerly wait for Christ's second coming (Heb. 9:27-28)). These ideas came from the OT texts, they didn't invent the belief.

When I read the following I do NOT overlay upon it a veil it refers to troubles only in this life. It literally says his soul was brought up from sheol:

You have brought up my soul from Sheol
2 O LORD my God, I cried to you for help, and you have healed me.
3 O LORD, you have brought up my soul from Sheol (07585 שְׁאוֹל she’owl); you restored me to life (02421 חָיַה chayah) from among those who go down to the pit (0953 בּוֹר bowr).
4 Sing praises to the LORD, O you his saints, and give thanks to his holy name. (Ps. 30:2-4 ESV)

Its very possible given the many trials and tribulations David suffered, that he literally had what is today called an "After Death Experience." To claim it never happened goes against David's explicit statements.


According to Parsimony (Occam's Razor) you argue the less likely position. The most simple explanation is usually correct, but your interpretation requires I add what is not explicitly stated in the text, that it refers to "troubles in this life".

As I said, "Poetry praising God for deliverance from Sheol would be deceptive if God didn't actually do it."

There is nothing deceptive. Again, it's poetry that praises God for his deliverance from a variety of situations and trials.

It is deceptive to extend the realm of salvation to Sheol, when that is not true.

If I used figurative language to extoll a boat as "sea worthy" even in turbulent Ocean Sea, when it actually was a mere dingy that barely remains floating in a placid lake, I have deceived you.

There is no "postmortem opportunity" for salvation (Heb 9:27; Rev 20:11-15), so you aren't even arguing anything that is orthodox. Apologetics is a defense of the faith. What you are doing is theological polemics, amongst Christians.

Incredible. The texts you cite explicitly refer to judgment after death, and then eagerly waiting for Christ's second coming (while still dead Heb. 9:27-28) or the opening of the book of life after being raised up from Hades!

Catholic tradition is being called "Orthodoxy" by Protestants!

Here is early Christian Orthodoxy:

Clement of Alexandria (150–215) Christian teacher at Alexandria who spent his twilight years with his friend Alexander when he became bishop of Jerusalem, had this to say about souls in Hades:

So I think it is demonstrated that God (being good) and the Lord (being powerful) both save with a righteousness and equality that extends to all who turn to God, whether here or elsewhere. For it is not here alone that the active power of God is present. Rather, it is everywhere and is always at work.… For it is not right that those persons [who died before Christ] should be condemned without trial, and that those alone who lived after His coming should have the advantage of the divine righteousness. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, EE Eastern), 2.491. Dead, Intermediate State of The. (1998). In D. W. Bercot (Ed.), A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs: A Reference Guide to More than 700 Topics Discussed by the Early Church Fathers (p. 192). Hendrickson Publishers.

If you traveled back in time, sat at the table with Clement and the Bishop of Jerusalem, and claimed (not yet invented) Catholic belief all outside the church, including those who died, are eternally lost. They would not think that "Orthodox".

What you call "Orthodoxy" is a rejection of the plain teaching of Scripture. That is why this should be in apologetics. You allow JWs argue their belief there, why not allow me to argue for the plain reading of scripture against Catholic Tradition which, oddly enough, Protestants basically retain with little modification. An example of "confirmation bias" of epic proportions!

 

[Alfred Persson]

Scripture. Listen to what I am saying. What David writes about in the Psalms has to do with things that he did or what happened to him. These things are written in other OT books, but there is nothing in any OT book that states David died and came back to life.

Here is another Prophecy by David wherein he reveals his After Death Experience and it occurs in a "Messianic" context:

He also brought me up out of a horrible (07588 שָׁאוֹן sha’own) pit (0953 בּוֹר bowr), Out of the miry (03121 יָוֵן yaven) clay (02916 טִיט tiyt)

1 I waited patiently for the LORD; And He inclined to me, And heard my cry.
2 He also brought me up out of a horrible pit, Out of the miry clay, And set my feet upon a rock, And established my steps.
3 He has put a new song in my mouth– Praise to our God; Many will see (07200 רָאָה ra’ah) it and fear, And will trust in the LORD.
4 Blessed is that man who makes the LORD his trust, And does not respect the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies. (Ps. 40:1-4 NKJ)

Notes:

The bôr šāʾôn (desolate pit) and ṭîṭ hayyāwēn (wet clay) both refer poetically to the place of the dead, a place of separation from God (cf. Ps. 30:3; 69:2, etc.). The image, which was characteristic not only within Israel but also among Israel’s neighbors, evokes the image of a body being buried.”-Jacobson, R. A., & Tanner, B. (2014). Book One of the Psalter: Psalms 1–41. In E. J. Young, R. K. Harrison, & R. L. Hubbard Jr. (Eds.), The Book of Psalms (p. 375). William B. Eerdmans Publishing

07200 רָאָה ra’ah {raw-aw’}
Meaning: 1) to see, look at, inspect, perceive, consider 1a) (Qal) 1a1) to see 1a2) to see, perceive 1a3) to see, have vision 1a4) to look at, see, regard, look after, see after, learn about, observe, watch, look upon, look out, find out 1a5) to see, observe, consider, look at, give attention to, discern, distinguish 1a6) to look at, gaze at.- Strong’s Dictionary.

The two major religious schools of Jesus’ Day (Hillel, Shammai) taught postmortem opportunity . From this context they gleaned two additional names for Gehenna:

I.19 A. Said R. Joshua b. Levi, “Gehenna has seven names and these are …
E. “ ‘tumultuous pit’: ‘He brought me up also out of the tumultuous pit, out of the miry clay’ (Ps. 40:3);
F. “ ‘miry clay’: ‘He brought me up also out of the tumultuous pit, out of the miry clay’ (Ps. 40:3). .”-Erubin 19a, Neusner, J. (2011). The Babylonian Talmud: A Translation and Commentary (Vol. 3, p. 94). Hendrickson Publishers.

“He has put a new song in my mouth”
“The phrase “new song” occurs nine times in Scripture… In every instance, the reference is to a song of praise addressed to God, usually because of his salvation of people.
• Sing to him a new song; play skillfully, and shout for joy (Ps. 33:3).
• He put a new song in my mouth, a hymn of praise to our God (Ps. 40:3).
• Sing to the LORD a new song; sing to the LORD, all the earth (Ps. 96:1).
• Sing to the LORD a new song, for he has done marvelous things (Ps. 98:1).
• I will sing a new song to you, O God; on the ten-stringed lyre I will make music to you (Ps. 144:9).
• Sing to the LORD a new song, his praise in the assembly of the saints (Ps. 149:1).
• Sing to the LORD a new song, his praise from the ends of the earth (Isa. 42:10).
• And they sang a new song: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation” (Rev. 5:9).
• And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth (Rev. 14:3).”-Easley, K. H. (1998). Revelation (Vol. 12, pp. 100–101). Broadman & Holman Publishers.

Notes end.


Prophet David’s After Death Experience imparts truth “many will see” (LXX ὄψονται Ps. 51:8; 107:42; Ac. 2:17; Rom. 15:21; Rev. 22:4) and fear turning aside from the God of Salvation, unto lies.

Figurative language describes David’s experience of the pit of destruction; any slip of the foot, as on miry clay could begin the descent into eternal death. Patiently David waited trusting in the LORD, and his faith was rewarded. David’s feet securely on the rock of his Salvation, establishing his feet on the path of life. Therefore, David sings the new song of the redeemed. Many eyes see and learn fear of the LORD, trusting only in Him and they will not turn to lies that destroyed all going down into the pit.

From the Messianic context of this prophecy (Psalm 40:6-10; Heb. 10:5-9) the Rock in this context is Christ, hence he sings a new song of salvation (comp. Rev. 5:9; 14:3).

 

[Alfred Persson]

Is Christ's After Death Experience "unorthodox"?


18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him. (1 Pet. 3:18-4:1 NKJ)

"AFTER Death Experience" is a more accurate term for an actual event like Christ Experienced. Its not considered a possible "hallucination" by advocates because it refers to experiences after the brain has died. Nothing in scripture is a hallucination.

I am NOT the only Orthodox Commentator that classifies David's testimony as a "Death Experience".

David had a near-death experience that he describes in Ps 30.-Hamilton, J. M., Jr. (2021). Psalms (T. D. Alexander, T. R. Schreiner, & A. J. Köstenberger, Eds.; Vol. 1, p. 352). Lexham Academic.

Regardless of the origin of the psalm, it is a powerful reminder of the difference God can make in a person’s life when things are going badly. The psalmist writes of being in the depths, of enemies eager to gloat over his vulnerable position, and perhaps even a near-death experience (30:1–3). Yet God had responded with deliverance, healing, and life.-Longman, T., III, ed. (2010). Psalms thru Song of Songs (Vol. 5, p. 29). Barbour Publishing.
David writes this psalm as a man who has just come out of a near-death experience.-Smith, J. J., & Akin, D. L. (2022). Exalting Jesus in Psalms 1–50 (D. Platt, D. L. Akin, & T. Merida, Eds.; p. 227). Holman Reference.

The point is not that David had actually died and been buried in the grave. Rather, “grave” (Hebrew, Sheol) simply depicts forcefully a near-death experience.-Barker, K. L. (1995). Praise. In Cracking old testament codes: a guide to interpreting literary genres of the old testament (p. 226). B&H Academic.

1–7. Hezekiah’s near-death experience occurs ‘in those days’, a time that can be set just prior to or during the Assyrian threat of 701 BC.-Wray Beal, L. M. (2014). 1 & 2 Kings (D. W. Baker & G. J. Wenham, Eds.; Vol. 9, p. 480). Apollos; InterVarsity Press.

Move my posts back to Theology. They are NOT unorthodox.

They should have been left in Apologetics, where I put them. Then you unorthodox folks could try prove your points, instead of smearing it as "unorthodox".