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[_ Old Earth _] Quasar violates Hubble's Law

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cubedbee

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Questions for physicists: What methods other than redshifting are used to estimate the age of the universe? It is my understanding that the most distant objects are all quasars, so how does the estimate for the universe's age change if it is concluded that all quasars have an alternative source of redshift and aren't as far away as Hubble's Law suggests?

Discovery By UCSD Astronomers Poses A Cosmic Puzzle:
Can A 'Distant' Quasar Lie Within A Nearby Galaxy?

By Kim McDonald

An international team of astronomers has discovered within the heart of a nearby spiral galaxy a quasar whose light spectrum indicates that it is billions of light years away. The finding poses a cosmic puzzle: How could a galaxy 300 million light years away contain a stellar object several billion light years away?

The team’s findings, which were presented today in San Diego at the January meeting of the American Astronomical Society and which will appear in the February 10 issue of the Astrophysical Journal, raise a fundamental problem for astronomers who had long assumed that the “high redshifts†in the light spectra of quasars meant these objects were among the fastest receding objects in the universe and, therefore, billions of light years away.

“Most people have wanted to argue that quasars are right at the edge of the universe,†said Geoffrey Burbidge, a professor of physics and astronomer at the University of California at San Diego’s Center for Astrophysics and Space Sciences and a member of the team. “But too many of them are being found closely associated with nearby, active galaxies for this to be accidental. If this quasar is physically associated with this galaxy, it must be close by.â€Â

Astronomers generally estimate the distances to stellar objects by the speed with which they are receding from the earth. That recession velocity is calculated by measuring the amount the star’s light spectra is shifted to the lower frequency, or red end, of the light spectrum. This physical phenomenon, known as the Doppler Effect, can be experienced by someone standing near train tracks when the whistle or engine sounds from a moving train becomes lower in pitch, or sound frequency, as the train travels past.

Astronomers have used redshifts and the known brightness of stars as fundamental yardsticks to measure the distances to stars and galaxies. However, Burbidge said they have been unable to account for the growing number of quasi-stellar objects, or quasarsâ€â€intense concentrations of energy believed to be produced by the swirling gas and dust surrounding massive black holesâ€â€with high redshifts that have been closely associated with nearby galaxies.

“If it weren’t for this redshift dilemma, astronomers would have thought quasars originated from these galaxies or were fired out from them like bullets or cannon balls,†he added.

The discovery reported by the team of astronomers, which includes his spouse, E. Margaret Burbidge, another noted astronomer and professor of physics at UCSD, is especially significant because it is the most extreme example of a quasar with a very large redshift in a nearby galaxy.

“No one has found a quasar with such a high redshift, with a redshift of 2.11, so close to the center of an active galaxy,†said Geoffrey Burbidge.

Margaret Burbidge, who reported the team’s finding at the meeting, said the quasar was first detected by the ROSAT X-ray satellite operated by the Max-Planck Institute for Astrophysics in Garching, Germany and found to be closely associated with the nucleus of the spiral galaxy NGC 7319. That galaxy is unusual because it lies in a group of interacting galaxies called Stephan’s Quintet.

Using a three-meter telescope operated by the University of California at Lick Observatory in the mountains above San Jose and the university’s 10-meter Keck I telescope on Mauna Kea in Hawaii, she and her team measured the redshifts of the spiral galaxy and quasar and found that the quasar appears to be interacting with the interstellar gas within the galaxy.

Because quasars and black holes are generally found within the most energetic parts of galaxies, their centers, the astronomers are further persuaded that this particular quasar resides within this spiral galaxy. Geoffrey Burbidge added that the fact that the quasar is so close to the center of this galaxy, only 8 arc seconds from the nucleus, and does not appear to be shrouded in any way by interstellar gas make it highly unlikely that the quasar lies far behind the galaxy, its light shining through the galaxy near its center by “an accident of projection.â€Â

“If this quasar is close by, its redshift cannot be due to the expansion of the universe,†he adds. “If this is the case, this discovery casts doubt on the whole idea that quasars are very far away and can be used to do cosmology.â€Â

Other members of the team, besides Geoffrey and Margaret Burbidge, included Vesa Junkkarinen, a research physicist at UCSD; Pasquale Galianni of the University of Lecce in Italy; and Halton Arp and Stefano Zibetti of the Max-Planck Institute for Astrophysics in Garching, Germany.

http://ucsdnews.ucsd.edu/newsrel/science/mcquasar.asp
 
science

This is a perfect example of how science operates . When something occurs to alter the beliefs, they set out new ideas and hypothesis to find the correct answer where ever it leads. Since science doesn't have all the answers and this subject especially will change as we gather new information. After all it's not like anybody is going to be there physically anytime soon.
 
Redshift is certainly the primary way, but not the only.

For close stars (within about 100 light years, I believe) they can triangulate the distance by measuring how far it shifts against background stars as the earth moves from one side of the sun to the other.

For distant galaxies, another method they use, IIRC, is that supernova type I-A are extremely consistant in size and magnitude. The occur once every 100 years or so in each galaxy, and put out as much energy as their entire host galaxy. Because the way they are "ignited", which is by a white dwarf stealing material from a sister star until it reaches critical mass, each of these explosions is almost exactly the same.

It's like the universe's version of a 100 watt light bulb. Very consistant.

The relative magnitude of the brightness of the supernova can show the distance. That's the only other way I know of to measure distant objects (there may be others I am not aware of).

The article does raise an interesting revision to our ideas of quasers, for sure, should this be confirmed. It'll be interesting to see this played out.

Thanks for the article BBB
 
Also the first real way to gauge distance was use of Cephyid(spelling incorrect, sorry can't remember) data. Cephyids are a type of star with a set osillating frequency of brightness. Using this and the redshift in brightness one can calculate its distance, and using these as markers, we can calculate the distance to far off objects.
The redshift used these days is in the spectrum of hydrogen so with this there is far far greater precision.

This is an interesting problem, I'll have to search arXiv to see if anything has been published on this. The idea of a quasar with a redshift indicating a distance of several hundred megaparsecs to be within something whose redshift is at a little more than 1 mega parsec is disturbing.
 
Re: science

This is a perfect example of how science operates . When something occurs to alter the beliefs, they set out new ideas and hypothesis to find the correct answer where ever it leads. Since science doesn't have all the answers.......

That's what I've been saying all along....... :-?
 
Re: science

Pale^Rider** said:
This is a perfect example of how science operates . When something occurs to alter the beliefs, they set out new ideas and hypothesis to find the correct answer where ever it leads. Since science doesn't have all the answers.......

That's what I've been saying all along....... :-?
Yes but science bases it's reasoning on evidence. This is where the bible has it bass ackward. Science develops an idea then tests the idea and then comes to a conclusion on whether it is valid.The bible has already given the answer and is now desparately looking for evidence to confirm it and even when proven wrong or the evidence points in an opposite direction they still cling to the answer.
 
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