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Radical Orthodoxy

  • Thread starter Thread starter Tristan
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This is a thread where the philosophical framework for my Christian beliefs is explained...so I won't actually be going much into what my beliefs are, and instead into what they are founded on. You could say it's about the basis for my theology. It will be long, but I hope it will make clearer where my progressive beliefs come from. Please keep in mind that this is philosophy, so the arguments are filled with logic and reason, and this is meant to justify scripture and the existence of God.

Before I even get started, I'm going to declare that I am a proponent of what is called Radical Orthodoxy (RO). If you'd like to do research for whatever reason, running a search of that name will give you information about what I support.

I'm going to borrow heavily from a particular article that I believe does an excellent job of detailing the basis for Radical Orthodoxy. I'll just do it in friendlier terms. Source

Different from the secular, postmodern way of thinking, RO rests on a different foundational assumption about what we can call "the glue that holds the world together." It is Augustine’s vision of heavenly peace, made effective in the dynamic and binding power of divine purpose, that shapes RO's reflections, not Nietzsche’s violence wrought by an omnipotent will–to–power.

Let me illustrate the Nietzschean postulate that governs postmodernism. Consider this piece of "glue that holds our world together": "Marriage is the union of a man and a woman." One of the important postmodern assertions is that such a claim is contingent. What makes "marriage" mean "union of a man and a woman" is the fact that dictionaries define the words that way, not some underlying essence of "marriage" or an enduring "natural law." Dictionary definitions do not rest on an essential set of immediate truths. This piece of "glue," like all other pieces, is an arbitrary act of will. Dictionaries, and the law courts, define marriage as the union of a man and a woman, and our lives are shaped accordingly. The glue is sticky, and postmodern theory is all about explaining just how the glue retains its force. Words have determinate meaning, and therefore retain influence in our lives, argues postmodern theory, because their meanings are enforced by the exercise of power...hence the "will-to-power".

Words, and stable meanings, are forged out of the endless flux of language. A blow of violence must be struck—"Marriage means this and not that." The problem is that a single blow never settles the matter, so we must deploy constant reinforcement to keep meanings stable. We hold our world together through a perpetual battle against the tendency of our ways of talking and thinking and acting to disperse into alternative possibilities.

This is actually true of many Christians as well, and the issue is that this plays right into the hands of nonbelievers, because by accepting the fundamental violence, we are on their terms, and the descent into nihilism and lack of meaning is swift and ultimately fatal for us. That perspective is the reason that Christians are thought of so poorly by the most intelligent and well educated of nonbelievers. The path doesn't leave room for a God. Let's explore this for a moment.

So out of this central claim of violence comes the brutally political nature of a postmodern moral agenda. If power defines marriage as the union of a man and a woman, then power can change that definition. With enough redirection of power, they assume that marriage can come to mean the union of any two persons. A blow was struck in one direction; a blow can be struck in another. The arbitrary violence of conventional meanings is met by the new violence of postmodern revision. Everything is about violence. All of us with our different doctrines and beliefs are all fighting each other blow by blow. We're fighting with nonbelievers. We're fighting with other religious groups. There is a constant violence, and this is a serious problem for Christians.
This is where RO is so brilliant. Instead of having to debate on their terms, instead we demonstrate how it's unnecessary to believe in a fundamental violence. In fact it's not even preferable. I've found holes in materialism and nihilism (which I've detailed in another thread). RO fills these perfectly.

"For theology, and theology alone, difference remains as real difference, since it is not subordinate to immanent univocal process or the fate of a necessary repression."-John Milbank

In easier terms, what Milbank is saying is that 'meaning' doesn't have to be fixed and certain. The process by which there is "difference" (between different 'things') is through theology, and ONLY theology.
For example, we can study the history of marriage and observe that Christianity changed its meaning by assimilating the relation of men and women to the relation of Jesus Christ and the Church. Yet we don't need to conclude that such a change resulted from a contest of power. Things can be understood and inhabited across change and difference without submission to power and dominion. The will-to-power isn't necessary.
At the core of RO is a participatory framework, a metanarrative that doesn't require the postulate of original violence. Put more simply, Radical Orthodoxy hopes to recover Neoplatonic metaphysics as an explanation for the glue that holds the world together. Something can be what it is and at the same time depend upon and reach toward something else. Or more strongly, something is real only in and through this dependence. For the Neoplatonist, you, or I, or the value of my moral acts, are as emanating from and returning to the One. God.

RO treats the world as a differentiated realm of beings and events knit together, not in spite of or against the discrete identities of things, but in harmonious order and toward a common purpose.
This is absolutely vital. There is no conflict or need for violence. Everything is interconnected and working toward God's purpose. My beliefs and your beliefs might be different, but no matter what they are, they work for God's purpose. That isn't to say that there is no right or wrong, but more that regardless of who is right or wrong, God's teleological purpose...his ultimate will is fulfilled.
 
Let's look at liturgy for a moment. Communion is a complex combination of giving and receiving, in which the human subject (us) remains identifiable even when incorporated. We don't need to become "not selves" in order to receive the body and blood of Jesus Christ, nor can we remain simply "ourselves," unchanged and unaltered. If I participate, I am still Tristan, but at the same time, I am changed by the experience of receiving the body and blood of Jesus. An understanding of his sacrifice in all symbolism. Our liturgical practice assumes that we can be ourselves and be enrolled in the drama of redemption. We can participate, without either abandoning our identities or guarding them against divine dominion. The glue that holds us together, our identity as discrete individuals with personal projects, is the same glue that holds us together as a community in common worship. The one intensifies rather than diminishes the other.

So since nothing exists outside the embrace of divine providence, our Christian vision necessarily gathers up all of human life into its analysis, looking toward a transformed way of living. In fact, in RO, we go as far as to say there is no such thing as secular. Our social reality is governed by the 'supernatural' vocation of fellowship with God. Nothing exists outside it, yet this vocation vindicates and fulfills rather than corrupts our condition as natural, rational, and social beings. Our identity in existence, rational discourse, and corporate life is the same as our identity before God. The one reinforces rather than weakens the other.

This is certainly meaty stuff, but when we finally draw this to its conclusion, it all fits so wonderfully together.

One of the tragedies of modern theology has been its gradual and systematic renunciation of their true ambition. The deep end of "truth" has been ceded to science, while theology swims in the shallow end of "meaning." Aesthetic expression has been relinquished to the cult of original self-expression and "what–it–means–for–me." Morality becomes a subset of utility, or a creation of your own private conscience, and Christians are reduced to "sharing their values." An impoverished realm of "spirituality" or "transcendence" remains the rightful property of Christian reflection, and running on these slight fumes, theology drives toward relevance in a world over which it has renounced its authority. Radical Orthodoxy is intensely opposed to this renunciation; for its adherents the whole world is fit for absorption into a theological framework. Christian theology should shape the way we talk about everything...because everything falls under the Lord's providence.

Most importantly of all, is that Christ’s redemptive purpose structures the natural world, history, human desire, and truth itself. God's teleological purpose...his will...it's all centered on Christ and his redemptive purpose for all of us.
Rather than being addressed by God, we have to discover the content of the infinite through labor and creative effort. God is revealed through the experiences of EVERYONE together, again, not working against each other, but instead for God's ultimate purpose. It's something that we discover together as a whole, and the purpose of the Church is for us to share and grow together, because only through our combined effort do we put together a picture of God. This relies heavily on self-reflection.

Jesus makes possible a reflective pattern, and his life is redemptive because the features of his life stimulate us to "speculatively grasp" that pattern. On the one hand, Jesus is the man who proclaims the coming kingdom of God. On the other hand, we encounter a "metanarrative" that concentrates on the sacrificial economy of Jesus’ rejection, suffering, and death. The narrative simply fails, as the two elements conflict with each other, leaving Jesus dispersed between the narrative and "metanarrative." Is Jesus about proclaiming the kingdom of God, or is this about his suffering, rejection and death? Where does salvation even enter into it?

The absence of a written true savior in the gospels means that we are left to create one (which Paul has helped us with greatly). We discover Jesus as a savior through our own experiences, and it differs from person to person.

The particular article that I've heavily relied on as a source critiques RO by describing how it loses out on Christ as the mediator and instead relies on the speculative grasp of humanity as the key to salvation. I reconcile this quite easily though. The salvation is provided to us through the death of Christ, but it's still something that has to be discovered through the work of the Holy Spirit. Everyone is called, and their life is a journey that leads them to Christ. Some find it, some don't. So the salvation is one size fits all, but Jesus/God behind it...that must be discovered, and that is through the work of the Holy Spirit.
 
The absence of a written true savior in the gospels means that we are left to create one (which Paul has helped us with greatly). We discover Jesus as a savior through our own experiences, and it differs from person to person.
Am I misunderstanding that there is no reference to Jesus being Savior and God?

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD (Jehovah), and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isa 43:11 I (Jesus), even I, am the LORD (Jehovah); and beside me there is no saviour.

Acts 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Philippians 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Philippians 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

We are not left without witness of Jesus as God and Savior in the word God, and even then He gives us the measure of faith to believe on Him according to Rom 12:3. To me we are born of God before we experience Him because we can’t even see or understand the kingdom of God until then. John 3:3.
 
Am I misunderstanding that there is no reference to Jesus being Savior and God?

I'll take some time to flesh this out. I wanted to give an overview before diving into the implications of it.

There are two narratives in the gospel (the first 4 books of the New Testament). First we have the narrative of Jesus' life and death. We get a picture of who he is as a person and what he goes around doing during his life. We feel his anger, sadness, excitement and deep pain. Everything about the man is in the plain text and you can almost imagine Jesus walking the Earth, living his life and moving from place to place.

Then there's the metanarrative about the Church...the body of believers. You could say it's about the kingdom of heaven. Jesus came to Earth to...inaugurate the Church. Much of what Jesus spoke of was about the kingdom of heaven. It was very much spiritual...a contrast to the physicality of Earth.

This is where we find a disparity. There is Jesus the man, and then there's the Jesus the son of God, and the gospels themselves really don't reconcile this. If you read the gospels carnally, the narrative falls apart. There is no real connection between the two in the literal text.

Of course, the narrative doesn't actually fall apart. The reader puts it together on his or her own. The pieces are there, and there are even pieces littered through the scriptures, as you have brought up. The savior is there for us to find, but it doesn't exist in the plain text of the gospels...the story of Jesus. We have to find Jesus in his physical life and in the kingdom of heaven that he preached throughout his life. This differs from person to person. All of us have a different perception of Christ and what he means for us. All of us have a different story as to how Christ came into our lives and how we live in him.

This is what I find so wonderful. Everyone can have a different experience or perspective about God inside the body of believers, and yet the Lord's will is still fulfilled. We end up with a richer picture of this God and his son Jesus through the collective experience of everyone. Everyone's life (even those of nonbelievers) still works for God's ultimate purpose. Everything reveals the wonder and power of our God. To say "This, God shall not have" is a return to a primal violence...the very one we are trying to avoid. Instead of this violence and strife, we end up with peace and harmony.

So to directly answer your question, yes, there is a reference to Jesus being savior, but it is one that needs to be discovered by each individual. The message is not "one size fits all". Everyone's experience is different and everyone sees a slightly different savior. If you want to put the pieces together in the rest of scripture that say that Christ is the savior, that is good. We know he is the savior for all of us, but what about each of us as individuals? It isn't a uniform message where you need to change who and what you are to accept it. It is one where you discover Christ yourself and everything works together for the Lord's purpose.
 
So to directly answer your question, yes, there is a reference to Jesus being savior, but it is one that needs to be discovered by each individual. The message is not "one size fits all". Everyone's experience is different and everyone sees a slightly different savior. If you want to put the pieces together in the rest of scripture that say that Christ is the savior, that is good. We know he is the savior for all of us, but what about each of us as individuals? It isn't a uniform message where you need to change who and what you are to accept it. It is one where you discover Christ yourself and everything works together for the Lord's purpose.
Dear Tristan, him that believes shall be saved, but there are at least four aspects to our salvation and you may be not discerning the difference when applying it to experience. The following excerpt is contained in the pamphlet I wrote: Salvation with Security,” parts one and two at the following link. What experience are we presently at?
http://www.christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/salvation-with-security.42973/

First - It is provisional. If you accept Jesus as your savior, you will be saved. (Romans 10:9-10) "If you say with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved, (10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Second - When you become saved, it is at this time that you are born again and have overcome the penalty of sin, or become saved from the great white throne judgment and the resulting lake of fire. (John 5:24), "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." In (Romans 8:1) "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus."

Third - The working out your own salvation referred to in (Philippians 2:12) is learning to overcome the habit of sin in our lives. This is the experiencing part of our salvation and is another step in our growth as a Christian. (2 Peter 1:5-7) tells us to "Add to your faith virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness and charity." To realize this growth in our lives, we must learn to begin counting our old man dead. (Romans 6:6) "Knowing this, that our old man (The Adamic nature) is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.” (Ephesians 4:22) “That ye put off concerning the former conversation (Manner of life) the old man who is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;” (Colossians 3:9) “Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds." We all have an old man we should count as dead that still wants to rule our lives. Even though the Apostle Paul knew he was saved, he experienced all kinds of problems with the old man trying to control his life. (Romans 7:14-25) states that (15) he ends up doing that which he hates. In (16,17), Paul realizes that if he agrees that the law is good, then it is no more him that was responsible, but sin that was in him. In looking for an answer he says (24) "Who shall deliver me?" (25) "I thank God through Jesus Christ"

(Romans 8:1). "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus." And in (Romans 8:4) it says that "The righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us (Not by us), who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Fourth - We will be saved from this corrupt world. In (Romans 8:18-23), Paul states (18) "For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (21) Because the creature (Creation) itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (22) For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now." John states in (1 John 3:2) "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."
 
You bring up a lot to chew of information to chew on.

Let me address your first point about salvation first. I'm very careful about the wording in John 3. It says you cannot enter the kingdom without being born again. It doesn't say you won't understand without being born again. I don't agree that we are born again the moment we enter Christianity. I think of it more as a process that occurs over your life and one that is finalized when Jesus returns again.

"I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed." -1 Corinthians 15:52

"This is he who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree." -1 John 5:6-8

The judgment concerning whether or not we are saved is reserved for the end of time when the Lord returns. That is to say that God knows in advance, but we still have to complete our lives before that judgment can occur. The unforgivable sin...the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is an eternal sin...it's one that has to happen over the entire course of someone's life. There are deathbed conversions. The Holy Spirit is our witness, and it is something that works over the course of your life.

I don't believe confessing Jesus as died and resurrected saves you automatically. That would mean that 1.5 billion Christians are automatically saved regardless of the condition of their hearts. I believe that in the thread that you may know about *cough*, I brought up that it is the work of the Holy Spirit inside you that saves you. I also explained the context for that claim that Paul made. Nobody facing a painful death is going to continue believing something they know to be false. What that confession meant was that you were a true, fervent believer in your heart...because there was a huge risk in that confession. That risk is pretty much nonexistent now. It's the historical context for Paul's letters.

To address your second point, I don't agree that it is immediate, but it certainly does occur at the end of time. We don't know who is saved and who isn't until Jesus returns again and the final judgment occurs. What's the point of a judgment if the saved people already know they are saved? In fact, Paul did address this in Romans 10 just a little before the part about confession, and in Romans 8:

"But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." Romans 10:6-7

"For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God," Romans 8-14-16

The Holy Spirit is our witness, and intercedes on our behalf over the course of our entire lives. If we live by the Spirit and accept it into our lives, we will see its fruit and we will be saved at the end.

Your third points speaks to me the best so far. We're not quite in line, but this is the closest one. The Holy Spirit works with us over our entire lives. We will remain sinful until Jesus returns to set it right, but it is a process of overcoming sin and doing what is right whenever we can. This is only done by the influence of the Holy Spirit. It is a life of growth. We should see evidence of a gradual change...it just can never be completed until Jesus returns.

Your fourth point is 100% agreed.

So I guess in order to bring this all together, I use the work of the Holy Spirit. I think RO is about how the Holy Spirit is the true glue that holds the world together. God/Jesus/Holy Spirit are the glue. It's totally Christ centered. It's just that everyone has a different experience through the Holy Spirit. The Lord is so huge, I can't put him a box by saying there is one true single perception of salvation. What does Jesus mean for you?

You've shared with me what you believe about salvation, and I've shared mine with you. Who's right? That there is an invalid question. Both of us are working for God's purpose. Both of us can be led by the Holy Spirit. Rather than being against each other, we are with each other working so that everyone possible can be saved. That is the grand point of RO. There is no violence, but rather peace.
 
You bring up a lot to chew of information to chew on. Let me address your first point about salvation first. I'm very careful about the wording in John 3. It says you cannot enter the kingdom without being born again. It doesn't say you won't understand without being born again. I don't agree that we are born again the moment we enter Christianity. I think of it more as a process that occurs over your life and one that is finalized when Jesus returns again.
If that were so, other scripture would be wrong. John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. This occurs the moment one receives the Lord Jesus as their Savior. We are not grown into becoming a son of god; we’re born into the family of God.
The judgment concerning whether or not we are saved is reserved for the end of time when the Lord returns. That is to say that God knows in advance, but we still have to complete our lives before that judgment can occur. The unforgivable sin...the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is an eternal sin...it's one that has to happen over the entire course of someone's life. There are deathbed conversions. The Holy Spirit is our witness, and it is something that works over the course of your life.
There is but one unforgivable sin and that in spite of the word professed, the miracles witnessed, and the measure of faith given us a person turns from the grace given and never receives Jesus as their only means of going to heaven. The work of the Holy Spirit is to convince or reprove us of sin, righteousness, and judgment. How we receive His urging determines our eternity.
I don't believe confessing Jesus as died and resurrected saves you automatically. That would mean that 1.5 billion Christians are automatically saved regardless of the condition of their hearts.
Wouldn't that have condemned the thief on the cross promised to be with Jesus in paradise that day?
To address your second point, I don't agree that it is immediate, but it certainly does occur at the end of time. We don't know who is saved and who isn't until Jesus returns again and the final judgment occurs. What's the point of a judgment if the saved people already know they are saved?
Our judgment as those who have received Christ is for reward only; we already have eternal life and our spiritual walk determines the place we will have with Jesus forever. In 1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life . . John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.
I think RO is about how the Holy Spirit is the true glue that holds the world together.
What do you think of the following scripture? Colossians 1:17 And He (Jesus) is before all things, and by Him all things consist.

In Christ Jesus.
 
So what happens to those people that believe that have lived a life of willful evil? They believe, so they're automatically saved? The fruit of their works is evil, yet because they believe in God, they're saved? That isn't true. The demons believe in God. They aren't saved. John 5:24 tells us that we have to believe 'on him who sent [Christ]', not believe in Christ and his resurrection. I get resistance when I read into the text, as you are doing, but everyone else is at liberty to do so.

That verse also doesn't tell us when that change occurs. It says that they have eternal life (yes, it can be coming in the future), and 'is passed' (when are they passed?) from life to death. The scriptures are clear that the change occurs at the end when Jesus returns.

The Holy Spirit does 5 things in scripture:

1) Teaches:

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you." -John 14:26

"for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.”" -Luke 12:12

2) Intercedes:

"Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words." -Romans 8:26

3) Leads:

"Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil." -Matthew 4:1

4) Gives life:

"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life." -John 6:63

5) Fills us:

"And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance." -Acts 2:4

So the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit would be a rejection of this. I appreciate how it's defined here:

"But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people." -2 Timothy 3:1-5

This is the opposite of the fruit of the Spirit. This is what the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is. The only way you can not be saved is by ignoring the work of the Holy Spirit. For me it's a pretty simple cause-effect. You gain salvation if you answer the Spirit's call. It's a process that occurs over time and is final and complete when the Lord returns and we are changed. If you ignore the Holy Spirit, you die, and do not gain salvation.

"For many are called, but few are chosen.”" -Matthew 22:14

The difference between you and me thus far is mostly that you believe salvation and deliverance is immediate whereas I believe it is given at the end and that there is a process over time where the Holy Spirit works through us and helps us to grow. I'm not even sure your perspective is incompatible with RO.

No, the thief on the cross was converted at his death and there was no time for him to do the work of the the Lord. He accepted the Holy Spirit (and therefore God and Christ) and was saved. He believed it in his heart, not just with his words. He will be raised with the rest of us when the Lord returns. He is not with the Lord now...punctuation is vital. Too bad it was missing in the original narrative. "I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise". Similar to him saying "Verily".

Yes, as I've said. I'm sure of my own salvation because I believe and I can feel the Holy Spirit working through me. That I am confident of. That doesn't mean I'm saved right now. That means I'm saved when Jesus returns. What if I change and become some sort of evil mass murderer? In fact, that verse in John 11 is good. You have to believe and LIVE it.

Jesus is God is the Holy Spirit. They are the same entity that is manifest in three forms. One of them deity, the other physical with a body and the third is a spirit. Do we worship one God or three? You either accept all of them or none because they are the same thing.

This is what my translation says: "And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together." -Colossians 1:17

In fact, that's the heart of what I'm trying to say! That's the heart of RO! Everything is held together in harmony for God's ultimate purpose.
 
Dear Tristan, the Holy Spirit has by word, witness, and even nature itself pointed you to Christ, and yet you profess you do not know if you are born of God, or saved at this very time and that is sad. To us in Christ it now that we are the sons of God, and in 1 John 3:2 it doesn’t appear what we shall be, but when we are with Him we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is. The very One the Holy Spirit points to is being rejected as to practical application as God, Son of God, and absolute Savior to all that will receive Him. I know of no further reason to go on with this as we just seem to grow apart in our individual understanding. Thanks.
 
Jesus makes possible a reflective pattern, and his life is redemptive because the features of his life stimulate us to "speculatively grasp" that pattern. On the one hand, Jesus is the man who proclaims the coming kingdom of God. On the other hand, we encounter a "metanarrative" that concentrates on the sacrificial economy of Jesus’ rejection, suffering, and death. The narrative simply fails, as the two elements conflict with each other, leaving Jesus dispersed between the narrative and "metanarrative." Is Jesus about proclaiming the kingdom of God, or is this about his suffering, rejection and death? Where does salvation even enter into it?

The absence of a written true savior in the gospels means that we are left to create one (which Paul has helped us with greatly). We discover Jesus as a savior through our own experiences, and it differs from person to person.

No Tristan, Jesus is God. The demeaning of the Christ you display in your words is not taken lightly. Questioning Christ, as salvation for mankind. The evidence, the life, Spirit, of of the True Saviour is written from the beginning of Scripture to the end of Scripture. Man does not create the Creator.

Please keep in mind that this is philosophy, so the arguments are filled with logic and reason, and this is meant to justify scripture and the existence of God.

Man's search for God through philosophy has lead to countless religions over time. We are to worship God in Spirit and Truth...

Joh_4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

1Co 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
 
Tristin said:
The absence of a written true savior in the gospels means that we are left to create one (which Paul has helped us with greatly). We discover Jesus as a savior through our own experiences, and it differs from person to person.

Hi Tristin,
Perhaps you could explain this a bit further. What do you mean by "true" savior?

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

That's a pretty bold statement from John.

Matthew 16:16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
Another bold statement from Peter.

Here we have two clear passages who Jesus is and what he's able to do and both derive from the gospels without assistance from Paul, though I agree Paul has helped us greatly to realize the diety of who Jesus is (if that's what you meant, but I'm still unclear)

Colossians 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.19 For God was pleased to have all his fullnessdwell in him,20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

But we also see this in the gospels:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.2 He was with God in the beginning.3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.4 In him was life,and that life was the light of all mankind.5 The light shines in the darkness,and the darkness has not overcome it.

So you've got me a little confused on what you're trying to say.

Thanks
 
Tristan said:
The absence of a written true savior in the gospels means that we are left to create one (which Paul has helped us with greatly). We discover Jesus as a savior through our own experiences, and it differs from person to person.
This is a very puzzling comment. Are you actually saying that who Jesus is can differ from person to person? The issue of a true savior in the gospels has been addressed and there is much more that can be said, but Jesus most certainly is presented as the one and only true savior throughout the Gospels. One cannot read them and come away without realizing that.

Matt 1:21-23, 21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus,for he will save his people from their sins." 22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: 23 "Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel" (which means, God with us). (ESV)

I don't believe confessing Jesus as died and resurrected saves you automatically. That would mean that 1.5 billion Christians are automatically saved regardless of the condition of their hearts.
It may not save someone automatically, as there must also be true repentance and faith, but confessing "Jesus is Lord [God]" and believing that God raised him from the dead is very much necessary for salvation (Rom 10:9-10).

To address your second point, I don't agree that it is immediate, but it certainly does occur at the end of time. We don't know who is saved and who isn't until Jesus returns again and the final judgment occurs. What's the point of a judgment if the saved people already know they are saved? In fact, Paul did address this in Romans 10 just a little before the part about confession, and in Romans 8:

"But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." Romans 10:6-7

"For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God," Romans 8-14-16

The Holy Spirit is our witness, and intercedes on our behalf over the course of our entire lives. If we live by the Spirit and accept it into our lives, we will see its fruit and we will be saved at the end.
Those verses you provide prove your point is in error--"The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God." See also John 1:12 and John 3:15-18. Our spirit can tell us if we are saved, we can know that we are saved, and the Spirit will bear witness.

What does Jesus mean for you?
Matt 16:15-17, 13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" 14 And they said, "Some say John the Baptist, others sayElijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." 15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.

There is only one Christ. He is not whomever we make him out to be. Your's is a post-modern view of Christ and Christianity, which is why it is so problematic.

You've shared with me what you believe about salvation, and I've shared mine with you. Who's right? That there is an invalid question. Both of us are working for God's purpose. Both of us can be led by the Holy Spirit. Rather than being against each other, we are with each other working so that everyone possible can be saved. That is the grand point of RO. There is no violence, but rather peace.
You are in disagreement with Jesus himself:

Matt 10:34-38, 34 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. 37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. (ESV)

Doesn't sound much like people working together.

Tristan said:
So the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit would be a rejection of this. I appreciate how it's defined here:

"But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people." -2 Timothy 3:1-5

This is the opposite of the fruit of the Spirit. This is what the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is.
That is how blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is defined? No, it isn't. You have to look at the one instance where blasphemy of the Spirit is mentioned.

Tristan said:
Jesus is God is the Holy Spirit. They are the same entity that is manifest in three forms. One of them deity, the other physical with a body and the third is a spirit. Do we worship one God or three? You either accept all of them or none because they are the same thing.
No, that is not what Scripture teaches. Very clearly, the Father is not the Son nor the Holy Spirit, and neither is the Son the Holy Spirit. They are all co-equal and co-eternal, and constitute the one being that is God. This is what Scripture reveals.

Tristan said:
This is what my translation says: "And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together." -Colossians 1:17
Which translation are you using? If it is copyrighted, then by the TOS and the law, you must show which one it is when quoting.
 
Eugene It appears we have reached a divergence in our beliefs that we can't reconcile. I'm glad we've had the opportunity to share and discuss. I hope you continue to grow in your walk with Christ. God bless.

reba I believe I need to explain this a bit further. There is no rejection that Christ exists as the son of God or a saviour in scripture. The evidence is there. I'll try to explain this a bit better. (Please read my passage to StoveBolts as well)

As I explained to Eugene, there are two narratives. One is the physical narrative of the life of Christ. We see this in the description of his acts and the feelings he expresses. Jesus came and lived with us in the flesh, and this is detailed to us in the gospels. We feel his joy. We endure his pain. Jesus is with us in the flesh. On the other hand we have a spiritual narrative. In this one Christ talks about the coming of the kingdom of heaven, and he focuses on establishing his church here on Earth. He speaks much about heaven and the end times. The book of John especially is very abstract and spiritual.

The issue is that Jesus is dispersed between those two narratives. We see half of him as a man and half of him as divine, but in the plain text, it just doesn't work. That said, he IS there as a savior, just not in the nature of the text. All of us have already found him. Sometimes it's with the help of scripture. Sometimes it's reading between the lines of what Christ said. Sometimes it's through our experiences and our faith that we discover Christ. He is still there, it's just that everyone experiences him differently. The wonderful, powerful diversity and complexity of God is manifest in everyone's experiences. Christianity is not fixed, nor is it carved by violence. It is instead a tapestry of different people with diverse beliefs, all working for God's teleological purpose. There is a Christ, it's just that our perception of him (as different people) varies.

Philosophy, like science, is a gift from God. It's another tool. I criticize many nonbelievers for only using one tool (empirical evidence) for discovery. I like to use many tools in my toolbox to understand God and to verify that he does indeed exist. You can be a philosopher, scientist, and theologian and still worship in Spirit and truth.

Concerning the wisdom of the world...you mean the one that is self-centered? Pleasure seeking? Malicious and uncaring? That's what I see as the wisdom of the world. "Eat and drink while you still can, for tomorrow we die. There is no God. Live it up!" That is the foolishness of the wisdom of the world. It does not seek God.

StoveBolts Here's something else I forgot to mention. What we are doing right now is viewing all of the gospels together. We're looking at the experiences of 4 people living at the time of Christ. That means our perspective is informed by that of a few others already! We're taking the experience they have, and learning from it, and combining it This is good, and precisely what the purpose of the Church is! It's not that we create God or Jesus. It's not that we're the creators of salvation either. It's that everyone discovers it and receives it differently. We're diverse people. A single, fixed message is not going to reach everyone.

Look at the nature of the gospel as individual texts. There are very different people writing them, yet they end up with the same message. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were different people and their gospels are even written with a different style. When we read them individually, that's when the two narratives are most obvious. So what's beautiful about RO is that diversity is acceptable...in fact necessary for all of us to grow and understand Christ. The vessel for this growth is the Holy Spirit...hence why different groups of Christians can still worship in Spirit and in truth without needing to have precisely the same beliefs.

Is there something I need to clarify better?

Free What I'm saying, is that our perception of Christ varies from person to person. Jesus himself is the same individual. Do you think one person can have a complete picture of God? It's literally impossible for God to be contained in the mind of a finite human. The best way for us to get a better picture of his nature is to come together as a group of believers and share our experiences, as the gospel writers did.

Concerning the Spirit and being saved...in the end I feel it's more of a difference in interpretation, like with Eugene. The present tense can also be 'ongoing'. Something that is occurring at the moment, but is not complete. That is what I see in passages like the one you presented. I see the Holy Spirit interceding over the course of our lives. The real clincher, at least for me is that it is not in past tense...as if it is no longer necessary and has already been completed. Why should the Spirit have to be bearing witness now, if it already did when we became Christians?

There is certainly one Christ, but no one person has the "true" picture of Christ. Nobody can. We're all looking at the same Jesus, but not everyone sees exactly the same thing.

Actually, that human conflict and violence argument is a similar argument to one from a nonbeliever friend of mine who I was discussing this with. There's a difference between superficial conflict, and a conflict where God's will is thwarted. The peace and harmony is concerning God's ultimate purpose...because EVERYTHING relates to salvation (which is God's will). We might fight, but our fighting does not thwart God's will. His will is fulfilled even though we often dispute. Even those who commit evil can still fulfill the will of God (not that we should be evil so good can come of it!) So the peace and harmony is at the teleological level. The will of God level.

So how many Gods do we worship? One. There is God manifest in three forms, being God at the same time in all of them. The moment you say there are three individual entities, that's three gods. I've never understood your perspective when others speak of it.

Yes, I started out by giving (ESV) at the end all the time and then I saw that few others were doing so, so I stopped. Maybe I'll put it in my signature.
 
As far as I can tell radical orthodoxy is a relatively new way of looking at Christian theology and, as such, is not fully fleshed out thus leaving space for either aberrant thought, or thought that appears aberrant when insufficiently explained. I haven't formed a complete opinion on it, but to me it seems rather awkward in its efforts to subvert modernity to Christianity.:twocents
 
As far as I can tell radical orthodoxy is a relatively new way of looking at Christian theology and, as such, is not fully fleshed out thus leaving space for either aberrant thought, or thought that appears aberrant when insufficiently explained. I haven't formed a complete opinion on it, but to me it seems rather awkward in its efforts to subvert modernity to Christianity.:twocents

Yes, it's rather new, but I'm fascinated by how well it counters postmodernism. Postmodern thinking has revealed much to us, and we need to rise to the challenge. There is a battle being fought for the existence of God at the philosophical level that most believers don't even know about. Those of us that need a system of beliefs that are intelligent and well reasoned (and take into account many fields) have been waiting for something like this for a very long time. I have a lot of faith that RO will turn out.
 
Tristan

I'll agree with much of what you have written in the manner that we all have a limited perception of Jesus, which is why we should all study the life of Jesus from birth to resurrection and become followers of Christ first and foremost.

I've always believed that the word is living and active, sharper than a two edged sword, cutting through bone and marrow because there is healing within God's word, as well as rebuke. We can each read a portion of the narrative and it will impact each of us differently based on our own life experiences. To this end, we each have a faucet of who Jesus is. A simple illustration could be as simple as saying my son knows me in a different way than my wife does and my best friend knows me in a different way. These varying views are based on the relationship I hold with each and every one of them. What I would never expect to happen is for them to start arguing over who I am though, yet we see this very thing in the church. (Which is one reason I stay away from trinity disputes).

Keeping this in mind, the four gospels were written to four different audiences for four different purposes. In other words, each had an agenda and their words were formed to address the concerns of each audience and this is clearly seen through the gospels.

Of the kingdom of heaven, Jesus said it was coming, and that it was already here. Satan still rules this world, but Christ is still King. I believe John writes about this in 1 John 5, although I have not looked it up. You are free to check me on this. Regardless, while some may get hung up between the narrative and the metanarrative that you describe, it would be my belief that they do so because of the lens in which they view the scriptures. I would add also that with a simple shift of the lens, the two are in perfect harmony in a rather simplistic fashion. And when one makes that simple shift, the scriptures come back to life, and they are able to be living and active once again..

As far as the RO being unified in diversity, we see Paul struggle with a different type of unity. The diversity I see you speaking of is theological in nature. The diversity I see Paul and the other Apostles struggle with more practical. A little homework and you'll find this is true and is the thrust of why Paul writes Romans. Agenda drives each letter that is written regardless if it's part of the Gospels or of Pauline nature. In essence, each has a contextual backdrop which addresses a particular tension. For instance, Galatians was written to early Christians in a time where Jewish Christians were forcing circumcision as a sign of salvation. In other words, they were forcing their understanding upon those with little to no understanding and by doing so, were undermining faith. Romans on the other hand was specifically written to gentiles who held a poor view of the Jews, even the Jewish Christians as these Jews were moving back into Rome after exile. Each letter addresses not only the theological differences, but how to navigate within those differences. The Gospels can be viewed through similar historical lenses and thus, are harmonized easily when one consideres what is important to one group, may not be important to the next group.

In an Old Testament theology class, one of the first things we learned was, "What's important and what's not". Where I see this concept being played out is when one forces their issue upon your theology. Take for example the book of John. While it harmonizes with the other gospels, you cannot force that template upon lets say Luke and if we try to do so, we view Luke through the wrong lens. Shift the lens to the proper perspective, and all becomes clear. I believe this principal also applies to narrative / metanarrative.

Grace and peace.
 
StoveBolts I agree. You're the first person here that seems to have a grasp on what this means.

There is a depth to theology that I really appreciate. I feel it's very important that Christianity be a smart religion. God shouldn't be threatened by my intelligence. Even if I'm intelligent in human terms, it shouldn't come close to that of God...so he should stand up to all forms of reasonable scrutiny. The reason I found myself exploring RO is because I found that my beliefs and what it asserted were converging. I was looking for a way that I could explain my beliefs rationally to a nonbeliever, and I've found it. I've always found it tragic that the deep end of meaning has been ceded to secularism. God is in everything, not in an animistic or pantheistic sense, but in that everything is derived from him. There is no secular, only God and his will.

I believe the strength of Christianity is its diversity. If all of us have different experiences and a different perception of God, then we can slowly build a better picture of him. The purpose of the Church is for us to share our perception of Christ with others, which will help us all grow as Christians. The best way to minister to others, is to show them how they can find Christ and the salvation he offers for themselves. The message is there, but a one-size-fits-all process is not the best way to be effective.

Also...the practical aspect is something that RO is still developing. I've had discussions with proponents of it concerning how we can deal with disputes and divisions in the church that arise. I think Corinthians is great for that. This theology is still young.

God bless.
 
Tristin said:
The reason I found myself exploring RO is because I found that my beliefs and what it asserted were converging. I was looking for a way that I could explain my beliefs rationally to a nonbeliever, and I've found it. I've always found it tragic that the deep end of meaning has been ceded to secularism. God is in everything, not in an animistic or pantheistic sense, but in that everything is derived from him. There is no secular, only God and his will.

And I think this is a major flaw within "christianity". If we spent more time learning to be like Jesus... well... then we'd all just be Christians wouldn't we? .... Just saying.

That doesn't mean we loose the identity of our tribe, but we better understand who our King is as he rules over all the tribes.
 
But the key is...we really don't know what Jesus is. Each of us has a different piece of the puzzle, so only through collaboration do we truly begin to understand what Christ is like in order to emulate him.
 
I'm not sure if that's just poorly worded or if you intentionally meant we don't know what Jesus is. we know through the scriptures that Jesus is the Son of God and we know how he lived. there is enough documentation within the Scriptures to give us a clear picture of who he is, what his ministries were, and how he responded in different situations.

The combinend Gospel writers gave us a very clear picture who he was and what we are to emulate. when we combine that with the Old Testament teachings, especially the Torah a lot of it comes together quite nicely
 
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