Resting in God's Sovereignty

[electedbyhim]

January 15

Resting in God's Sovereignty​

"[God] made known the mystery of His will according to His kind intention which He purposed in [Christ] with a view to an administration suitable to the fulness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things upon the earth" (Eph. 1:9-10).


God is intimately involved in the flow of human history and is directing its course toward a specific, predetermined climax.


For centuries men of various philosophical schools have debated the cause, course, and climax of human history. Some deny God and therefore deny any divine involvement in history. Others believe that God set everything in motion, then withdrew to let it progress on its own. Still others believe that God is intimately involved in the flow of human history and is directing its course toward a specific, predetermined climax.


In Ephesians 1:9-10 Paul settles that debate by reminding us that Jesus Himself is the goal of human history. In Him all things will be summed up—all human history will be resolved and united to the Father through the work of the Son.


As Paul said elsewhere, "It was the Father's good pleasure for all the fulness [of deity] to dwell in [Christ], and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross" (Col. 1:19-20). The culmination of Christ's reconciling work will come during His millennial kingdom (Rev. 20). Following that, He will usher in the eternal state with a new heaven and earth (Rev. 21).


Despite the political uncertainty and military unrest in the world today, be assured that God is in control. He governs the world (Isa. 40:22-24), the nations (Isa. 40:15- 17), and individuals as well (Prov. 16:9). God's timetable is right on schedule. Nothing takes Him by surprise and nothing thwarts His purposes. Ultimately He will vanquish evil and make everything right in Christ.


Suggestions for Prayer

• Thank God for the wisdom and insight He gives you to see beyond your temporal circumstances to His eternal purposes.
• Live today with that perspective in mind.

For Further Study
Read Revelation 20.

• What happens to Satan prior to the millennial kingdom?
• How does Satan meet his final doom?
• What happens at the great white throne judgment?

From Drawing Near by John MacArthur

 

[Tenchi]

God is intimately involved in the flow of human history and is directing its course toward a specific, predetermined climax.

What this means, exactly, varies pretty widely among believers holding to Reformed doctrines. MacArthur has migrated toward hyper-Calvinism and the belief that God meticulously ordains everything - including a person resting, or not resting, in His sovereignty. According to Reformed thinking, if a person is not so resting, it is because God, as the Meticulous Ordainer of Everything, has ordained that the person will not rest in His sovereignty. To encourage this non-resting person to rest, then, is to resist what God has ordained, which is essentially an act of rebellion toward God. Thus, within a Reformed systematic (at least, of a "high" sort), you are rebelling against God, electedbyhim, by urging those whom God has ordained should not rest in His sovereignty to do so.

I do agree entirely that God has an overarching plan and purpose for the world that nothing can thwart. I don't subscribe, however, to the notion that this necessitates that God meticulously ordains everything, which is what "divine sovereignty" among Reformed believers often amounts to. Part of why is illustrated above. God is powerful enough that He doesn't require strict control over everything in order to fulfill His will just as He wants to. It is a weaker view of God, in my opinion, that requires that He order every little thing in order accomplish His will. In such a God I find I cannot rest fully, for He is the One who has ordained the rapist who rapes, and the murderer who murders, and the thief who thieves.

 

[electedbyhim]

What this means, exactly, varies pretty widely among believers holding to Reformed doctrines. MacArthur has migrated toward hyper-Calvinism and the belief that God meticulously ordains everything - including a person resting, or not resting, in His sovereignty. According to Reformed thinking, if a person is not so resting, it is because God, as the Meticulous Ordainer of Everything, has ordained that the person will not rest in His sovereignty. To encourage this non-resting person to rest, then, is to resist what God has ordained, which is essentially an act of rebellion toward God. Thus, within a Reformed systematic (at least, of a "high" sort), you are rebelling against God, electedbyhim, by urging those whom God has ordained should not rest in His sovereignty to do so.

I do agree entirely that God has an overarching plan and purpose for the world that nothing can thwart. I don't subscribe, however, to the notion that this necessitates that God meticulously ordains everything, which is what "divine sovereignty" among Reformed believers often amounts to. Part of why is illustrated above. God is powerful enough that He doesn't require strict control over everything in order to fulfill His will just as He wants to. It is a weaker view of God, in my opinion, that requires that He order every little thing in order accomplish His will. In such a God I find I cannot rest fully, for He is the One who has ordained the rapist who rapes, and the murderer who murders, and the thief who thieves.

Macarthur is certainly not a hyper Calvinist.

you are rebelling against God, electedbyhim, by urging those whom God has ordained should not rest in His sovereignty to do so.

What does that even mean? The greatest comfort a Christian can have is the Sovereignty of God. What are you talking about?

I don't subscribe, however, to the notion that this necessitates that God meticulously ordains everything

You sure about that?

The Bible does not say what you believe.

Just a sample how the Lord meticulously ordains everything. There is many more.

Men and their actions

Proverbs 16:1 The preparations of the heart belong to man, But the answer of the tongue is from the LORD.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the LORD.

Proverbs 19:21 There are many plans in a man's heart, Nevertheless the Lord's counsel; that will stand.

Proverbs 20:24 A man's steps are of the LORD; How then can a man understand his own way?

Job 12:6 The tents of robbers prosper, And those who provoke God are secure; In what God provides by His hand.

Isaiah 22:11 You also made a reservoir between the two walls For the water of the old pool. But you did not look to its Maker, Nor did you have respect for Him who fashioned it long ago.

Psalms 139:16-17 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them. 17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God! How great is the sum of them!


All things

Colossians 1:16-17 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

Revelation 4:11 "You are worthy, O Lord, To receive glory and honor and power; For You created all things, And by Your will they exist and were created."


Grace and peace to you.

 

[Tenchi]

You sure about that?

Yup. Quite.

The Bible does not say what you believe.

Just a sample how the Lord meticulously ordains everything. There is many more.

Men and their actions

Proverbs 16:1 The preparations of the heart belong to man, But the answer of the tongue is from the LORD.

Hmmm... A bit of eisegesis here, brother. I don't see any mention of the divine, meticulous ordination of everything in this verse. And what, exactly, is the "answer of the tongue"? The hyper-Calvinist would say that the man who curses men and God, speaking vile things, is made to do so by God. Is this what you think this verse is indicating? Are all "answers of the tongue" ordained by God, as the hyper-Calvinist thinks? This would be a pretty awkward belief in the instance, say, of a false prophet who, in the OT, was to be killed for falsely prophesying. If God had ordained that the false prophet should speak false prophecies, why should the false prophet be blamed for doing so? It is God's will that he do so, is it not, since the false prophet was ordained - that is, compelled - by God to say things that were false? We don't condemn the radio when, through it, we hear bad news, do we? It is simply doing what it was made and programmed to do. So, too, the false prophet, if God meticulously ordains every word he speaks, every "answer of his tongue," as you seem to be suggesting.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Again, it appears you're forcing into this verse what you already have assumed is the case. The verse does not say that God meticulously ordains everything, only that God has made the universe for His purposes - including the person who chooses a wicked life, living in rebellion to God, and finds, as God has promised, doom at the end of that life. This verse says something about the fundamental purpose of Creation, but it offers nothing on which to ground the idea that God meticulously orders everything. A guy who builds a shed from scratch for his own particular purposes doesn't necessarily, therefore, order everything that happens in connection with that shed. He may not want the weather to deteriorate the shed, or intend for a spider to take up residence in its rafters, or mice to skitter about within its walls, and so on. This isn't the best analogy, but it does draw out that having purposes for something one has made doesn't necessarily entail that everything that happens with or to that thing that one has made is ordered by oneself. That God made the universe does not necessarily entail that He therefore dictates each and every event that occurs within it.

Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

I don't see in this verse, either, any statement to the effect that God meticulously ordains everything. God may direct (some) of a man's steps, as the verse says, but the verse does not say God directs all the steps of every man. Such a conclusion you must impose upon the verse, not draw out of it. And we have verses like this one that throw a wrench into the God-ordains-everything belief:

Jeremiah 32:34-35 (NASB)
34 "But they put their detestable things in the house which is called by My name, to defile it.
35 "They built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Through Jeremiah, God indicated that he neither commanded, nor even thought about, the murder of children on the red-hot arms of Molech. God was in no way whatever directly involved in such terrible evil. But your reading of the verses (not the verses themselves) you've offered contradicts this statement quite flatly.

Proverbs 20:24 A man's steps are of the LORD; How then can a man understand his own way?

All of the verses you've offered suffer badly from eisegesis. But this one in particular gives the Reformed believer some amusing problems of the sort I've noted above already. No Reformed believer - especially of the "high" or "hyper" sort, which a meticulous-divine-ordination-of-everything-view characterizes - can point at an unconverted sinner and say to them, "Repent, accept the Gospel, and be converted!" Why should he? If every step of every man (and woman) is ordered by God, they are, in their unconverted condition, exactly where God has ordained that they should be. They don't need to understand the Gospel and their lost state; they are precisely where God wants them to be, if God meticulously ordains everything.

And so on.

Perhaps you can see now why your charge that "the Bible doesn't say what you believe" doesn't phase me at all. From what you've offered so far, the one to whom your charge applies is you, not me.

Brother, there are better, more rational and biblical, ways to understand things-soteriological than the Reformed systematic. Give those videos I linked to in your other thread a serious look-see and discover one of those ways.

 

[electedbyhim]

Yup. Quite.



Hmmm... A bit of eisegesis here, brother. I don't see any mention of the divine, meticulous ordination of everything in this verse. And what, exactly, is the "answer of the tongue"? The hyper-Calvinist would say that the man who curses men and God, speaking vile things, is made to do so by God. Is this what you think this verse is indicating? Are all "answers of the tongue" ordained by God, as the hyper-Calvinist thinks? This would be a pretty awkward belief in the instance, say, of a false prophet who, in the OT, was to be killed for falsely prophesying. If God had ordained that the false prophet should speak false prophecies, why should the false prophet be blamed for doing so? It is God's will that he do so, is it not, since the false prophet was ordained - that is, compelled - by God to say things that were false? We don't condemn the radio when, through it, we hear bad news, do we? It is simply doing what it was made and programmed to do. So, too, the false prophet, if God meticulously ordains every word he speaks, every "answer of his tongue," as you seem to be suggesting.



Again, it appears you're forcing into this verse what you already have assumed is the case. The verse does not say that God meticulously ordains everything, only that God has made the universe for His purposes - including the person who chooses a wicked life, living in rebellion to God, and finds, as God has promised, doom at the end of that life. This verse says something about the fundamental purpose of Creation, but it offers nothing on which to ground the idea that God meticulously orders everything. A guy who builds a shed from scratch for his own particular purposes doesn't necessarily, therefore, order everything that happens in connection with that shed. He may not want the weather to deteriorate the shed, or intend for a spider to take up residence in its rafters, or mice to skitter about within its walls, and so on. This isn't the best analogy, but it does draw out that having purposes for something one has made doesn't necessarily entail that everything that happens with or to that thing that one has made is ordered by oneself. That God made the universe does not necessarily entail that He therefore dictates each and every event that occurs within it.



I don't see in this verse, either, any statement to the effect that God meticulously ordains everything. God may direct (some) of a man's steps, as the verse says, but the verse does not say God directs all the steps of every man. Such a conclusion you must impose upon the verse, not draw out of it. And we have verses like this one that throw a wrench into the God-ordains-everything belief:

Jeremiah 32:34-35 (NASB)
34 "But they put their detestable things in the house which is called by My name, to defile it.
35 "They built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Through Jeremiah, God indicated that he neither commanded, nor even thought about, the murder of children on the red-hot arms of Molech. God was in no way whatever directly involved in such terrible evil. But your reading of the verses (not the verses themselves) you've offered contradicts this statement quite flatly.



All of the verses you've offered suffer badly from eisegesis. But this one in particular gives the Reformed believer some amusing problems of the sort I've noted above already. No Reformed believer - especially of the "high" or "hyper" sort, which a meticulous-divine-ordination-of-everything-view characterizes - can point at an unconverted sinner and say to them, "Repent, accept the Gospel, and be converted!" Why should he? If every step of every man (and woman) is ordered by God, they are, in their unconverted condition, exactly where God has ordained that they should be. They don't need to understand the Gospel and their lost state; they are precisely where God wants them to be, if God meticulously ordains everything.

And so on.

Perhaps you can see now why your charge that "the Bible doesn't say what you believe" doesn't phase me at all. From what you've offered so far, the one to whom your charge applies is you, not me.

Brother, there are better, more rational and biblical, ways to understand things-soteriological than the Reformed systematic. Give those videos I linked to in your other thread a serious look-see and discover one of those ways.

Your pride blinds you. I understand that you do not like the Lord to be completely sovereign in everything.

You interpretations of those verses are flawed.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Tenchi]

Your pride blinds you. I understand that you do not like the Lord to be completely sovereign in everything.

Do you know what an ad hominem attack is? You just made one here. It's a form of fallacious arguing that signals a lack of good ground for one's views (and/or insecurity in them). I'm not proud, but I am confident in what I believe - as I should be after fifty years of walking with God and studying His word.

I reject the idea that God is the Source of all moral evil, which is what your notion of sovereignty requires. And, as I showed you from the verse in Jeremiah, God in His word denies that He is.

God has sovereignly decreed that human beings have the freedom to choose to love and obey Him, or not. I don't see this as undercutting God's sovereignty but elevating it; for a God who can see His will done despite the free agency of His creatures, is a far more impressive God than One who can only accomplish His will provided He is in direct, personal control of every, single thing. My view of divine sovereignty, then, seems higher than yours.

 

[Tenchi]

You interpretations of those verses are flawed.

Well, just saying so doesn't make it so. Can you demonstrate that I've misinterpreted the verses I commented on? I took the time to explain why I think you've got things awry. Your response simply asserts without justification that I'm in error. That's not a very...effective rebuttal of my remarks. At all.

 

[electedbyhim]

Do you know what an ad hominem attack is? You just made one here. It's a form of fallacious arguing that signals a lack of good ground for one's views (and/or insecurity in them). I'm not proud, but I am confident in what I believe - as I should be after fifty years of walking with God and studying His word.

I reject the idea that God is the Source of all moral evil, which is what your notion of sovereignty requires. And, as I showed you from the verse in Jeremiah, God in His word denies that He is.

God has sovereignly decreed that human beings have the freedom to choose to love and obey Him, or not. I don't see this as undercutting God's sovereignty but elevating it; for a God who can see His will done despite the free agency of His creatures, is a far more impressive God than One who can only accomplish His will provided He is in direct, personal control of every, single thing. My view of divine sovereignty, then, seems higher than yours.

So you appeal to your 50 years of walking with God as your authority, interesting.

Let me ask you this, who is your Pastor, what Christian material do you read, or are you one of those who believe you only need the Holy Spirit to teach you all things?

Who said God is the source of all evil? I never said that.

Thank you for your opinions.

I will stick to what the Lords word teaches.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[electedbyhim]

Well, just saying so doesn't make it so. Can you demonstrate that I've misinterpreted the verses I commented on? I took the time to explain why I think you've got things awry. Your response simply asserts without justification that I'm in error. That's not a very...effective rebuttal of my remarks. At all.

Actually all you gave was your opinion of those verses and opinion of Macarthur as a hyper Calvinist and his devotional is wrong.

Fair enough, you are entitled to you own beliefs, it does not make you right.

I will keep my faith in Gods Sovereignty in all things.

I understand that you Arminians do not believe any of the Doctrines of Grace.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Tenchi]

So you appeal to your 50 years of walking with God as your authority, interesting.

Appeal? But in support of what? My confidence, nothing more.

Let me ask you this, who is your Pastor, what Christian material do you read, or are you one of those who believe you only need the Holy Spirit to teach you all things?

More ad hominem. You really DO feel insecure about your views. Let me ask you this in return: What does the name of my pastor or the material I read have to do with whether or not I'm right (and you're wrong) in my understanding of the verses you offered? So far, you've offered nothing in effective rebuttal of what I wrote. Instead, you've deflected to personal attack.

Who said God is the source of all evil? I never said that.

It is an unavoidable consequence of divine determinism, or meticulous divine ordination of all things (which is the same thing).

I will stick to what the Lords word teaches.

I wish you would. You could abandon Reformed theology, if you did.

I understand that you Arminians do not believe any of the Doctrines of Grace.

Not an Arminianist. A Provisionist (and some Molinism, too). Check out those links!

 

[jasonc]

Actually all you gave was your opinion of those verses and opinion of Macarthur as a hyper Calvinist and his devotional is wrong.

Fair enough, you are entitled to you own beliefs, it does not make you right.

I will keep my faith in Gods Sovereignty in all things.

I understand that you Arminians do not believe any of the Doctrines of Grace.

Grace and peace to you.

I disagree with that .I may attend a reformed church .

I'm not reformed .the five solas are informally accepted by many arminists and even my hardcore free will brother has agreed with the basics of the doctrines if grace as described by spurgeon .

He didn't mention sovereignty in that list on the devotion my brother read and posted on his fb page . Spurgeon I hardly arminist

 

[electedbyhim]

Appeal? But in support of what? My confidence, nothing more.




More ad hominem. You really DO feel insecure about your views. Let me ask you this in return: What does the name of my pastor or the material I read have to do with whether or not I'm right (and you're wrong) in my understanding of the verses you offered? So far, you've offered nothing in effective rebuttal of what I wrote. Instead, you've deflected to personal attack.




It is an unavoidable consequence of divine determinism, or meticulous divine ordination of all things (which is the same thing).

Again, thank you for your opinions.

If you believe I "feel' insecure in my beliefs, you have a right to your opinion. Is that not a personal attack?

I am extremely confident in what the Lord has shown me in His word and through the men that He as ordained as Pastors and Teachers. I understand that in your eyes and others on this forum all those men are wrong and I am under heretical and false teaching. I probably am not saved as well.

Of course I believe the Lord has called and chosen me to salvation as one of His elect and I have eternal security and will persevere until the end.

I wish you would. You could abandon Reformed theology, if you did.

I have been on that side of the fence. I never bought into free will. The only free will I ever had was to choose to sin as an unregenerate. Anything good I did was nothing but filthy rags. Anything I do good as a Christian is because of the work of the Lords Spirit within me. There is nothing good in this flesh.

Not an Arminianist. A Provisionist (and some Molinism, too). Check out those links!

Provisionist is of the Arminian theology

So far, you've offered nothing in effective rebuttal of what I wrote. Instead, you've deflected to personal attack.

But I did. I gave you Biblical verses that you cannot accept, in fact you gave your own interpretation of those verses.

I have said this multiple times, that it is very difficult to debate anything online, I think you can understand that. We do trade our preferred beliefs and that is fine. I have no hard feelings over anything.

I think everyone can agree that frustration comes in when we want someone to understand a doctrine or point of view.

One thing is for certain, we will find out when we are with the Lord, and by then, will it really even matter?

I know that my words do not convey my many thoughts, I am not an educated man, but only understand what the Lord wants me to understand. In the eyes of the world, I am a fool.

1 Corinthians 1:27-29 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, 28 and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may abolish the things that are, 29 so that no flesh may boast before God.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Tenchi]

Again, thank you for your opinions.

What a handy word "opinion" is! With it, one can dismiss everything another person has said.

If you believe I "feel' insecure in my beliefs, you have a right to your opinion. Is that not a personal attack?

It's not a comment on you personally, on your character, only on the strength of your confidence in your beliefs.

I am extremely confident in what the Lord has shown me in His word and through the men that He as ordained as Pastors and Teachers. I understand that in your eyes and others on this forum all those men are wrong and I am under heretical and false teaching. I probably am not saved as well.

We are of a kind in our confidence in what we know, then. I don't begrudge you your confidence, nor do I mistake it for pride. I just think that, in the case of TULIP, you are in serious error. This by no means indicates that you are a heretic, or in error across-the-board, or a vainly puffed-up person.

I have never suggested you aren't saved. In fact, I've called you "brother" at least twice in our exchange.

Not everything MacArthur has taught is wrong. Far from it. Much of his teaching is excellent - just not regarding his soteriological systematic. It's a...dangerous thing to come to believe that one man has a lock on all truth. We are all of us always in a continuum of growth in our understanding of God's truth - even John MacArthur.

Of course I believe the Lord has called and chosen me to salvation as one of His elect and I have eternal security and will persevere until the end.

Yes, I'd expect no less of one who has bought-in to Reform doctrines.

You are chosen, but in Christ, as Ephesians 1 makes abundantly clear. Only if you are in him are you chosen of God, holy and blameless, blessed with all spiritual blessings, etc.. A man who is in a train traveling from one city to another is, because of being in the train, certain to arrive at its predetermined destination, blessed with the speed, and comforts, and ease of travel the train affords. In the same way, a man who is in Christ by faith in him as Savior and Lord is, as a result, chosen in him by God to be an adopted child, which God determined should be the case before the world began for any who received Jesus by faith. "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them who believed on his name." (John 1:12) The key to election isn't divine determinism but a person's free exercise of faith in Jesus Christ. All who are elect are all who have freely trusted in Christ as Savior and Lord and become, thereby, adopted, elect children of God. In other words, election is the result of saving faith in Jesus who is the "train of salvation" in whom all believers "ride" spiritually; election isn't the prerequisite to such faith.

I have been on that side of the fence. I never bought into free will. The only free will I ever had was to choose to sin as an unregenerate. Anything good I did was nothing but filthy rags. Anything I do good as a Christian is because of the work of the Lords Spirit within me. There is nothing good in this flesh.

Well, according to Reformed doctrine, you couldn't buy into free will, could you? Not having free will, you were unable to believe anything other than what God determined you should believe. I believe in free will for the same reason: because God has determined that I should do so (according to Reformed thinking). Though we have opposite views, we are both acting in our views according to God's will. Isn't Reformed thinking dizzying? It undercuts itself in very dramatic fashion!

You do realize, I hope, that the "filthy rags" (menstruous cloth) description is a reference to the spiritual uselessness of righteousness done apart from God and love for Him, not the moral quality of that righteousness? A filthy rag is useless: You can't use it for cleaning, or as a patch on clothing, or as a hanky. Being filthy, it cannot be used for anything; but this doesn't mean the rag isn't a rag. In the same way, a good deed is a good deed, even if it is stained by the curse of sin and made useless spiritually. An unsaved firefighter who risks his life to retrieve a child from a burning building has done a morally good thing even though, spiritually-speaking, his good deed is useless. The unsaved sex-slave rescuer who removes a little girl from her pimps has done a morally-good thing even if his doing so has no spiritual benefit. To say otherwise, to assert that these good deeds were "filthy" or, in other words, "evil," would be to turn morality on its head and to make doing good meaningless among the unsaved. But, Isaiah 64:6 calls the "filthy rags" righteousness and not wickedness, acknowledging the moral goodness of the deeds in question while depicting their spiritual useless.

In any case, I agree with Paul that "in me (that is, in my flesh) dwells no good thing" (Romans 7:18), but this is speaking to the intrinsic nature of the flesh, not to the moral quality of our deeds.

Provisionist is of the Arminian theology

Here, you reveal the myopia of Reformed thinking. There are more options on the spectrum of soteriological belief than what Reformed teachers want you to think there are. Arminianism and Calvinism (or Reformed doctrine) are by no means all that exist on the spectrum. As a Provisionist/Molinist I can tell you that both these views are sufficiently distinct from Arminianism that the Arminian calls them Calvinist! Myopia afflicts both soteriological extremes, you see.

But I did. I gave you Biblical verses that you cannot accept, in fact you gave your own interpretation of those verses.

No, what you did was reveal how deeply you have eisegetically-embedded your Reformed thinking into various verses. You are so sure the verses reveal Reformed doctrine, you didn't even bother to explain how. In response, I pointed out that several of the verses you offered did not actually indicate what you are so blindly-confident that they do indicate. In contrast, I accept the verses as they are, without Reformed spin upon them.

I have said this multiple times, that it is very difficult to debate anything online, I think you can understand that. We do trade our preferred beliefs and that is fine. I have no hard feelings over anything.

I don't think online debate is difficult. It's actually much easier online to say what one wants to say, free of confusing body language and voice-tone, with time to consider one's words before they are offered in a post.

In any case, I don't harbor any hard feelings toward you, either. You don't answer to me, in the end, right? Only to God. I certainly don't think anyone is obliged to change their thinking just because I've challenged their views.

I think everyone can agree that frustration comes in when we want someone to understand a doctrine or point of view.

That depends upon one's ability to think and communicate well, in large part, and one's willingness to let God persuade a person to the Truth in His own good time and way.

One thing is for certain, we will find out when we are with the Lord, and by then, will it really even matter?

Yes, I think it will. See 1 Corinthians 3:10-15.

I know that my words do not convey my many thoughts, I am not an educated man, but only understand what the Lord wants me to understand. In the eyes of the world, I am a fool.

Well, I am an educated man who is often in the company of other educated folk and I can tell you that education does not always equate to wisdom. In fact, some of the greatest fools I know are highly-educated.

Grace and peace to you.

And to you.

 

[electedbyhim]

What a handy word "opinion" is! With it, one can dismiss everything another person has said.



It's not a comment on you personally, on your character, only on the strength of your confidence in your beliefs.



We are of a kind in our confidence in what we know, then. I don't begrudge you your confidence, nor do I mistake it for pride. I just think that, in the case of TULIP, you are in serious error. This by no means indicates that you are a heretic, or in error across-the-board, or a vainly puffed-up person.

I have never suggested you aren't saved. In fact, I've called you "brother" at least twice in our exchange.

Not everything MacArthur has taught is wrong. Far from it. Much of his teaching is excellent - just not regarding his soteriological systematic. It's a...dangerous thing to come to believe that one man has a lock on all truth. We are all of us always in a continuum of growth in our understanding of God's truth - even John MacArthur.



Yes, I'd expect no less of one who has bought-in to Reform doctrines.

You are chosen, but in Christ, as Ephesians 1 makes abundantly clear. Only if you are in him are you chosen of God, holy and blameless, blessed with all spiritual blessings, etc.. A man who is in a train traveling from one city to another is, because of being in the train, certain to arrive at its predetermined destination, blessed with the speed, and comforts, and ease of travel the train affords. In the same way, a man who is in Christ by faith in him as Savior and Lord is, as a result, chosen in him by God to be an adopted child, which God determined should be the case before the world began for any who received Jesus by faith. "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them who believed on his name." (John 1:12) The key to election isn't divine determinism but a person's free exercise of faith in Jesus Christ. All who are elect are all who have freely trusted in Christ as Savior and Lord and become, thereby, adopted, elect children of God. In other words, election is the result of saving faith in Jesus who is the "train of salvation" in whom all believers "ride" spiritually; election isn't the prerequisite to such faith.



Well, according to Reformed doctrine, you couldn't buy into free will, could you? Not having free will, you were unable to believe anything other than what God determined you should believe. I believe in free will for the same reason: because God has determined that I should do so (according to Reformed thinking). Though we have opposite views, we are both acting in our views according to God's will. Isn't Reformed thinking dizzying? It undercuts itself in very dramatic fashion!

You do realize, I hope, that the "filthy rags" (menstruous cloth) description is a reference to the spiritual uselessness of righteousness done apart from God and love for Him, not the moral quality of that righteousness? A filthy rag is useless: You can't use it for cleaning, or as a patch on clothing, or as a hanky. Being filthy, it cannot be used for anything; but this doesn't mean the rag isn't a rag. In the same way, a good deed is a good deed, even if it is stained by the curse of sin and made useless spiritually. An unsaved firefighter who risks his life to retrieve a child from a burning building has done a morally good thing even though, spiritually-speaking, his good deed is useless. The unsaved sex-slave rescuer who removes a little girl from her pimps has done a morally-good thing even if his doing so has no spiritual benefit. To say otherwise, to assert that these good deeds were "filthy" or, in other words, "evil," would be to turn morality on its head and to make doing good meaningless among the unsaved. But, Isaiah 64:6 calls the "filthy rags" righteousness and not wickedness, acknowledging the moral goodness of the deeds in question while depicting their spiritual useless.

In any case, I agree with Paul that "in me (that is, in my flesh) dwells no good thing" (Romans 7:18), but this is speaking to the intrinsic nature of the flesh, not to the moral quality of our deeds.



Here, you reveal the myopia of Reformed thinking. There are more options on the spectrum of soteriological belief than what Reformed teachers want you to think there are. Arminianism and Calvinism (or Reformed doctrine) are by no means all that exist on the spectrum. As a Provisionist/Molinist I can tell you that both these views are sufficiently distinct from Arminianism that the Arminian calls them Calvinist! Myopia afflicts both soteriological extremes, you see.




No, what you did was reveal how deeply you have eisegetically-embedded your Reformed thinking into various verses. You are so sure the verses reveal Reformed doctrine, you didn't even bother to explain how. In response, I pointed out that several of the verses you offered did not actually indicate what you are so blindly-confident that they do indicate. In contrast, I accept the verses as they are, without Reformed spin upon them.



I don't think online debate is difficult. It's actually much easier online to say what one wants to say, free of confusing body language and voice-tone, with time to consider one's words before they are offered in a post.

In any case, I don't harbor any hard feelings toward you, either. You don't answer to me, in the end, right? Only to God. I certainly don't think anyone is obliged to change their thinking just because I've challenged their views.



That depends upon one's ability to think and communicate well, in large part, and one's willingness to let God persuade a person to the Truth in His own good time and way.



Yes, I think it will. See 1 Corinthians 3:10-15.



Well, I am an educated man who is often in the company of other educated folk and I can tell you that education does not always equate to wisdom. In fact, some of the greatest fools I know are highly-educated.



And to you.

Thank you for you reply.

I have always prayed to the Lord to show me if I am wrong about a doctrine. I typically study both sides of a doctrine and then make a prayerful conclusion. I never base my beliefs on my emotions and feelings.

I do not believe I am in any error with what I believe. I do think that people who believe in free will, do not understand how totally depraved they are per the Bible. Each doctrine of TULIP go hand in hand and cannot be separated.

Thank you again because I can come off as rough, I suppose one would call it.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Tenchi]

I have always prayed to the Lord to show me if I am wrong about a doctrine. I typically study both sides of a doctrine and then make a prayerful conclusion. I never base my beliefs on my emotions and feelings.

Well, I don't mean to be a jerk here, but why pray for anything when God meticulously ordains whatsoever shall come to pass? Whether you pray or not, if God wants you to know that you are in error, He will compel you to see that you are - just as He will me (if Reformed doctrine is true).

I do not believe I am in any error with what I believe.

But according to Reformed doctrine, you believe whatever God wills for you to believe, what He has ordained that you will believe. And He's done the same to me, right? I believe exactly the opposite of what you do concerning the freedom of the will of Man. Who's right? We both believe what God has ordained we should believe. Can we say to each other, "You should believe otherwise!" if what we believe God has ordained that we should believe, as Reformed doctrine proposes? Surely, you can see why this sort of thinking makes the non-Reformed person shake their head in wonder at the confusion of the Reformed systematic.

I do think that people who believe in free will, do not understand how totally depraved they are per the Bible.

Brother, if there is one thing God is determined His children should understand well, Reformed or not, it is the depth of their sinfulness. The more I understand God's holiness, rather than the depths of my depravity, the more clearly I see just how far from God I am in my righteousness. Thank God that He imputes Christ's righteousness to me! How my need of Him crowds me to Him! But I see all of this without subscribing to TULIP.

Thank you again because I can come off as rough, I suppose one would call it.

Nah, you just talk like a guy. No worries!

 

[electedbyhim]

Well, I don't mean to be a jerk here, but why pray for anything when God meticulously ordains whatsoever shall come to pass? Whether you pray or not, if God wants you to know that you are in error, He will compel you to see that you are - just as He will me (if Reformed doctrine is true).



But according to Reformed doctrine, you believe whatever God wills for you to believe, what He has ordained that you will believe. And He's done the same to me, right? I believe exactly the opposite of what you do concerning the freedom of the will of Man. Who's right? We both believe what God has ordained we should believe. Can we say to each other, "You should believe otherwise!" if what we believe God has ordained that we should believe, as Reformed doctrine proposes? Surely, you can see why this sort of thinking makes the non-Reformed person shake their head in wonder at the confusion of the Reformed systematic.



Brother, if there is one thing God is determined His children should understand well, Reformed or not, it is the depth of their sinfulness. The more I understand God's holiness, rather than the depths of my depravity, the more clearly I see just how far from God I am in my righteousness. Thank God that He imputes Christ's righteousness to me! How my need of Him crowds me to Him! But I see all of this without subscribing to TULIP.



Nah, you just talk like a guy. No worries!

Well, I don't mean to be a jerk here, but why pray for anything when God meticulously ordains whatsoever shall come to pass? Whether you pray or not, if God wants you to know that you are in error, He will compel you to see that you are - just as He will me (if Reformed doctrine is true).

Not a jerk.

I agree with this. He did change my view of free will and also of losing my salvation. I always end my prayers with Gods will be done. the Spirit teaches us to pray.

But according to Reformed doctrine, you believe whatever God wills for you to believe, what He has ordained that you will believe. And He's done the same to me, right? I believe exactly the opposite of what you do concerning the freedom of the will of Man. Who's right? We both believe what God has ordained we should believe. Can we say to each other, "You should believe otherwise!" if what we believe God has ordained that we should believe, as Reformed doctrine proposes? Surely, you can see why this sort of thinking makes the non-Reformed person shake their head in wonder at the confusion of the Reformed systematic.

I truly find no confusion in the Reformed Doctrine.

Brother, if there is one thing God is determined His children should understand well, Reformed or not, it is the depth of their sinfulness. The more I understand God's holiness, rather than the depths of my depravity, the more clearly I see just how far from God I am in my righteousness. Thank God that He imputes Christ's righteousness to me! How my need of Him crowds me to Him! But I see all of this without subscribing to TULIP.

There are many who do not believe this. The more I study Scripture, the more I see the ugliness and evil that is inside.

I rightfully agree and live Romans 7:14-25

Grace and peace to you.