Revelation 12 -- is this tribulation for saints?

[Guest]

6. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.


13. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

YUP tribulation for saints

 

[DrFrank]

The word "saints" is used to refer to those who are saved and are in heaven.The verses above refer to those who will not granted a sainthood status because they will not be taken to heaven through the rapture and who therefore will have to go into hiding during the Tribulation.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

6. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.


13. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

At least she can leave if she wants.How would you like to be the remnant of her seed?
They are the ones who are going to be beheaded for thier testimony.

Read verse 17.

 

[David505]

Thanks $1meBermuda,

Chapter 12 is a prophetic tableau that exhibits multiple meanings. The implications are often subject to debate. John’s literal symbolism may picture Eve as the mother of all living (Gen. 3:20). Eve is maternal to the Jews, the Messiah, and the Gentile assembly. As a historical metaphor, the woman appears to personify Israel sheltered in the desert wilderness during the term of Antichrist's persecution.

 

[watchman F]

The word "saints" is used to refer to those who are saved and are in heaven.The verses above refer to those who will not granted a sainthood status because they will not be taken to heaven through the rapture and who therefore will have to go into hiding during the Tribulation.

You are way off base. First of all saints is a scriptural term for all true believers, and Revelation 12 has nothing to do with the rapture at all.

P.S. yes bermuda Rev 12 is referring to tribulational saints

 

[archangel_300]

Revelation 12 is referring to the entire New Testament church age.

 

[watchman F]

Revelation 12 is referring to the entire New Testament church age.

Should I ask? Na rather not

 

[archangel_300]

[quote="archangel_300":2qzrlyou]Revelation 12 is referring to the entire New Testament church age.

Should I ask? Na rather not[/quote:2qzrlyou]

I could always be wrong.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

I am NOT trying to open a can of worms here just something to think about :

The israelites were led by moses into the wilderness, tried there, their carcasses fell there and only their fruit escaped into the promsied land which they had to take back from their enemies

This was LITERALLY TRUE HAPPENINGS.- BUT it was also an example of the spiritual walk of a believer individually. How we are saved out of the world and power of darkness, go through the burial of baptism and leave our egyptian there under the water and the new spiritual man proceeds into the wilderness, led there by the SPIRIT to be tempted and proved so that there we can also walk in newness of life and fruitfullness and be sancritifed by the word of God and fiery trials which leave our old nature crucified and left there, so that after we are tried we can in our fruit only, in our gold silver and precious stones walk out into the promised land and take it back from enemies who want to intimidate us into beliving it is not ours etc...

Now when WE read this we are suppose to see it BOTH WAYS. We should know GOD DID THIS PHYSICALLY and THIS IS WHAT IT REPRESENTS TO US TODAY.

Why do we assume Rev 12 is differnt? In the same way These are ACTUAL EVENTS THAT WILL COME TO PASS in the tribulation before the Lord comes- AND they are the walk of the saints for the last 2,000 yrs BECAUSE history repeats and God always uses the same methods for the good of His people. This is how we can know if what we believe is happening is accurate- Does it fit the pattern?- Whenever numbers are involved we can know they will have a fulfillment. They are never ONLY just symbolic of " a larrge or small period of time" they mean a literal amoungt of time even when they are spoken of prophetically.( as in 1 day = one year or 1 week = 7 years etc..) So if we take prophetic times and account them to nothing more than general then we are missing the point. They will be fulfilled in the times given as we see from all of prophetic hisotry that happened that way. BUT that doesnt mean there is not a personal walk a spiritual walk that is also described by these prophcies and is less literal time wise. Such as moses was in the wilderness himself for 40 years then went to get them for 40 years. now for US we know 40 is the number of trial and tribulations.

So likewise 1,260 days will have a literal fulfillment but also for those before the literal, can have a spiritual representation in their personal lives. This never means the litearl wont be fulfilled so to pick that option misses the mark.

 

[veteran]

Our Lord compared the coming great tribulation to God leading Israel out of Egypt through Moses, compared it to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and to the destruction of the earth in Noah's day. In each of those Old Testament examples, there was a temptation and trial, with some falling away, while others stayed the course with God's help.

Our Lord Jesus showed in His Book of Revelation, and in His Olivet Discourse, just what the main temptation would be for the coming great tribulation, that of deception. That was His very first warning when His disciples asked what the signs of His coming would be.

That also is what the flood out of the dragon's mouth is about in the Revelation 12 chapter. The trials we're to go through in the tribulation is about that deception out of the dragon's mouth, and that's what God is doing in Rev.12 with protecting the woman. Not by removing her off the earth, but by protecting her from the flood that comes out of the dragon's mouth, protecting her from deception. This is why Apostle Paul specifically gave the warning in 2 Thess.2 about the "strong delusion" of a false one that's come playing God and doing great wonders on the earth. It's about deception.

Thus the wilderness of Rev.12 is not about going literally in a desert to hide. It's about a covering against the deception out of the dragon's mouth, a covering over one's mind and heart, The LORD Himself.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

The woman fleeing into the wilderness is exactly that.She is fleeing from the face of the beast.She is going away from his domain for 3 1/2 years untill he is destroyed.The book of revelation says he is given 42 months to continue from that point.

Rev 13;5
And there was given him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies,and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Simply put ,The beast doesnt rule the world as many of these self proclaimed scholars belive.He rules a very small area known as the promised land and that is where the woman shall flee from.Judea.

Mt 24;16
Then let them which are in Judea flee into the mountains.

My interpretation.-The Sanhedrin shall continue 3 1/2 years and the millitary sent to them shall kill the saints for them.The same amount of time Jesus peached the gospel in Judea ,so shall the remnant of the womans seed follow the Lamb of God and preach the everlasting gospel in Judea.They shall not have gone over all the cities of Israel till the Son of man is come.Truly.Do people read the gospel any more?

Mt 10;23
But when they persecute you in this city,flee ye into another;for verily I say unto you,Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel,till the Son of man be come.

Is there anyone on this board understands this?Is there anyone on this board who understand who Jesus is speaking to here?The woman flees from Judea as she is instructed to in the gospel.Then the beast goes to war with the remnant of her seed.These are they who keep the camandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus.In other words.They understand what you do not.While the beast is scourging those saints in thier synagogues ,you will still be waiting for the beast to appear.While those saints are being killed by the sanhedrin,you will still be waiting for your one world goverment to appear.

 

[veteran]

Rev 12:15-16
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
(KJV)

The flood out of the dragon's mouth is about lies of deception. And that's what the woman is being protected from there. To interpret the woman fleeing in a physical sense would mean we'd have to interpret that flood out of the dragon's mouth as literal waters of a flood. But literal waters of a flood is not our Lord's Message there, for He has already interpreted this 'flood' in the last days for us...

Isa 8:7-8
7 Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks:
8 And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.
(KJV)

Isa 28:2
2 Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand.
(KJV)

Isa 59:19-20
19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and His glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.
20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
(KJV)

Rev 9:17-19
17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
(KJV)

There's no such thing as monsters in God's Word, and when He speaks of the power out of mouths, it's about words. In this case, it's about lies that cause deception. Fleeing physically from lies is not the idea of Rev.12.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Veteran.You dont know who the woman is ,nor do you know who she is fleeing from.

The scripture says she flees and she does.

Rev 12;14
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle,that she might fly into the wilderness into her place,where she is nourished for a time,and times,and half a time from the face of the beast.

Mt 24;16
Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains.



Daniel 12;7
And I heard the man clothed in linen which was upon the waters of the river;when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven,and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time,times,and a half;and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people,all these things shall br finished.


You just dont want to believe the truth .
Smite the shepherd and the sheep shall scatter.

 

[veteran]

Veteran.You dont know who the woman is ,nor do you know who she is fleeing from.

Knowing who the "woman" of Rev.12 represents is very easy for those who stay in God's Word. The symbols for the woman given in verse 1 is hard-linked to the symbols shown in Joseph's dream of Genesis 37. It's about Israel. That's the woman in both Scripture examples, the main difference being in Rev.12, the woman represents the Church of God, all those who have become spiritual Israel, made up of both flesh born Israelites and Gentiles as one Body who have believed on The Saviour Jesus Christ.

The weapon by the dragon which God protects the woman from is lies out of the dragon's mouth. That's why we're told the flood in Rev.12 comes out of the MOUTH of the dragon after the woman. The woman fleeing into the wilderness is symbolic there, not physical, for it represents God's sealing of His servants to go through the tribulation per Rev.7. And you know, there were 11 Revelation chapters prior to Rev.12, so we were supposed to remember what was given in those earlier chapters. Rev.9 specifically covered the idea of the weapons the locust army uses coming out of their MOUTHS.

Those in Christ who are sealed with God's seal is for a purpose during the tribulation. It's in order to make a stand in the evil day for Christ, giving a Testimony for Him. Can't do that if we're trying to flee somewhere away from God's enemies, either by some secret rapture or by literally hiding in some desert land or forest. ANY doctrine that teaches Christ's servants to flee the coming tribulation is a doctrine of men, and not from our Heavenly Father and His Son.

Mark 13:11
11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
(KJV)

Matt 10:17-20
17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for My sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father Which speaketh in you.
(KJV)

Luke 21:12-19
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
(KJV)


That's what that "testimony" those in Christ of Rev.12:17 have is about.

And the one thing Christ's enemies fear most from those in Christ, is that Testimony they are able and willing to give for Christ Jesus by The Holy Spirit, even to the death of our flesh body. What percentage of doctrines are taught here on this Forum that tries to deceive fellow-Christians away from that Testimony duty to Christ? That's what the doctrines of men are about, for men's doctrines are controlled by Christ's enemies, attempting to make Christ's servants weak in their Faith so as to be scared to give that Testimony for Him during the coming tribulation. The mere idea of wanting to flee away from the tribulation is not from The Father and His Son. Instead, we're supposed to be preparing to make a stand for Christ in the evil day, having the Gospel Armour on (Eph.6).

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Veteran
The beast doesnt go to war with the woman.He goes to war with the remnant of her seed.
The remnant of her seed are those who dont flee into the wilderness.God does not swallow up the flood that comes out of the beasts mouth,the earth does and its not God who feeds the woman while she is in the wilderness,"THEY"do.
As for the verses you quoted.Those verse are for the remnant of the womans seed,not the woman.If you were of her seed ,you would have known this.These are they who the beast goes to war with.Not the woman.
The beast never goes to war with the woman.

Rev 12;17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman and went to make war with the remnant of her seed,which keeps the comandments of God,and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Dont overlook verses like this,they are very important to understanding who is the woman is and who the beast goes to war with.Its very imporatant to understanding who is told to do what .You cant go on thinking the beast makes war with the woman.It doesnt happen.


Think if you were in Egypt and pharoah would not let you go into the wilderness.You just have to stay there and wait till the plagues are over.Thats what the remnant of her seed go through.They also will be beaten by the taskmasters and some will be killed.

Rev 18;4
And I heard another voice from heaven,saying,Come out of her my people,that ye be not partakers of her sins,and recieve ye not of her plagues.

I recon since God isnt speaking to you ,it doesnt make any difference.But it doesnt help anyone that you have no clue as to who God is talking too.Your just causing more confusion.

 

[veteran]

Veteran
The beast doesnt go to war with the woman.He goes to war with the remnant of her seed.
The remnant of her seed are those who dont flee into the wilderness.God does not swallow up the flood that comes out of the beasts mouth,the earth does and its not God who feeds the woman while she is in the wilderness,"THEY"do.
As for the verses you quoted.Those verse are for the remnant of the womans seed,not the woman.If you were of her seed ,you would have known this.These are they who the beast goes to war with.Not the woman.
The beast never goes to war with the woman.

Rev 12;17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman and went to make war with the remnant of her seed,which keeps the comandments of God,and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Dont overlook verses like this,they are very important to understanding who is the woman is and who the beast goes to war with.Its very imporatant to understanding who is told to do what .You cant go on thinking the beast makes war with the woman.It doesnt happen....

That flood out of the dragon's mouth is a spiritual metaphor brother. And so is going into the wilderness. It's not a Dispensationalist diatribe.

The fact that all that is given just prior to the Rev.13 chapter about the ten horned, ten crowned, seven headed beast kingdom covering the earth, should tell you that. Our Lord Jesus even uses the old beast kingdom Satan first rebelled with that only had seven crowns as a comparison to what timing Rev.12:6 forward is, i.e., tribulation timing.

It's simple. The flood out of the dragon's mouth represents lies of deception. It's about God's sealing of His elect in prep for the tribulation, so they will be able to make a stand in Christ through it, and NOT fall away to worship the false messiah that comes first to play Christ.

That remnant represents Christ's elect that will be sealed with God's sealing, like those of Rev.7. The rest will be spiritually blinded by the "strong delusion" Paul taught, which is about the coming false messiah.

Many brethren are wrongly being taught to fly away to that false messiah who shows up first, working great signs and miracles on earth in the sight of men, all to deceive with. The majority of the whole world is going to think that false messiah is God and The Christ. It will be a supernatural working by that false messiah, and not some low meley-mouthed charlatan with gadgets hidden behind cloaks to work some magic show. He's coming in the role of our Lord Jesus Christ, and will do works on earth to make you believe it! That'll be a lot different than any spiritual manifestations seen on earth today. Even many atheists are going to believe on that false messiah-prophet when they see the miracles he will do ("And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image."(Rev.19:20).