-
-
-
-
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join Hidden in Him and For His Glory for discussions on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/become-a-vessel-of-honor-part-2.112306/
-
-
-
-
Seeing and hearing ?
- Thread starter twinc
- Start date
Obadiah
Member
- Dec 14, 2012
- 6,568
- 1,488
I have a real problem and get very cautious when someone starts a sentence with something like "God told me...".
God has told us the principles of what we need to know in scripture, so if what they mean is they were "told" something through scripture, that's great. Or if they talk about how they have a leading from the Lord in some matter, and that leading agrees with scripture, well that's great too. But all too often I run into the people who have their own personal ideas but claim it was "God" who gave them this revelation. Way too many times what they are really doing is telling you that you better not disagree with their idea because if you do you are disagreeing with God himself. That is simply false, unfair, and extremely arrogant for someone to equate their personal ideas to the word of God Himself!
God has told us the principles of what we need to know in scripture, so if what they mean is they were "told" something through scripture, that's great. Or if they talk about how they have a leading from the Lord in some matter, and that leading agrees with scripture, well that's great too. But all too often I run into the people who have their own personal ideas but claim it was "God" who gave them this revelation. Way too many times what they are really doing is telling you that you better not disagree with their idea because if you do you are disagreeing with God himself. That is simply false, unfair, and extremely arrogant for someone to equate their personal ideas to the word of God Himself!
Last edited:
"And the Lord came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth." 1 Samuel 3:10 KJV
The Lord has spoken to many people in the Bible. Anything genuine will agree with the Bible. Discernment is required.
The Lord has spoken to many people in the Bible. Anything genuine will agree with the Bible. Discernment is required.
- May 22, 2012
- 13,128
- 4,333
Believers have a relationship with God, so I wouldn't consider it out of the ordinary. There are times God has spoken to me. If someone says God spoke to them, I tend to take their word for it...they'd know better than anyone else.
When it becomes problematic is when this is used to manipulate others. We are told to test the spirits, too. If what was said to you doesn't line up with scripture, it's not from God.
When it becomes problematic is when this is used to manipulate others. We are told to test the spirits, too. If what was said to you doesn't line up with scripture, it's not from God.
- Jul 3, 2014
- 5,268
- 1,707
To be honest, we have to admit it is not much different from someone claiming they "discerned" something...... (and if you'll notice, what is supposedly "discerned" is seldom positive or uplifting... he he.)
Obadiah
Member
- Dec 14, 2012
- 6,568
- 1,488
I've found those who use this to be manipulative will many times use "discern" just so they don't look quite as audacious as those who flat out say "God told me..."
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." Galatians 5:22-23 KJV
Jesus told us we would know His people by their love. Genuine prophets will exhibit the fruits of the Spirit in their lives, what they say will agree with the Bible, and what they say will come true.
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them." Matthew 7:15-20 KJV
Jesus told us we would know His people by their love. Genuine prophets will exhibit the fruits of the Spirit in their lives, what they say will agree with the Bible, and what they say will come true.
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them." Matthew 7:15-20 KJV
- Jul 3, 2014
- 5,268
- 1,707
A friend forwarded me this article by John Piper this morning. He does a great job of explaining the difference between prophecy in the OT and NT… something so few people seem to understand today.
NT Prophecy differs from OT Prophecy…..John Piper
John Piper contends along the same lines as Wayne Grudem that NT prophecy was of a different character than OT prophecy. I appreciate how Piper acknowledges and concedes why people would have a hang-up over such a declaration. He also argues that the NT gift of teaching is fallible and a good analogy of how NT prophecy works:
Spirit-Prompted yet No Intrinsic, Divine Authority
Now ask yourself this question: Did Joel and Peter and Luke think that all the men and women—old and young, menservants and maidservants—would become prophets in the same sense that Moses and Isaiah and Jeremiah were prophets, that is, people who spoke with verbal inspiration and with the very authority of God and who could write infallible Scripture? Is the prophesying of Acts 2:17 that sort of prophecy? Or is there a difference?
I believe there is a difference. I don’t think the gift of prophecy today has the authority of the Old Testament prophets or the authority of Jesus and the apostles. Or, to put it more positively, this sort of prophecy is prompted and sustained by the Spirit and yet does not carry intrinsic, divine authority.
One of the reasons that this kind of prophecy is so hard to get a handle on today is that most of us do not have categories in our thinking for a Spirit-prompted statement that doesn’t have intrinsic, divine authority. That sounds like a contradiction. We stumble over a kind of speech that is prompted and sustained by the Holy Spirit and yet is fallible. But I am going to try to show this morning and this evening that this is what the gift of prophecy is in the New Testament and today. It is a Spirit-prompted, Spirit-sustained utterance that does not carry intrinsic, divine authority and may be mixed with error. Now if that makes the gift of prophecy seem insignificant and unedifying, consider the analogy of the gift of teaching.
The Analogy of the Gift of Teaching
Would you not say that, when the spiritual gift of teaching is being exercised, teaching is prompted and sustained by the Spirit and is rooted in an infallible, divine revelation, namely, the Bible? The gift of teaching is the Spirit-prompted, Spirit-sustained act of explaining biblical truth for the edification of the church. And all of us would say it is tremendously valuable in the life of the church. But would any of us say that the speech of a teacher, when he is exercising the gift of teaching, is infallible? No. Would we say it has divine authority? Only in a very secondary sense would we say so. Not in itself, not intrinsically, but in its source, Bible.
Why is it that a gift that is Spirit-prompted and Spirit-sustained and rooted in an infallible revelation (the Bible) is nevertheless fallible, mixed with imperfection, and only has secondary, derivative authority? The answer is this: A teacher’s perception of biblical truth is fallible; his analysis of biblical truth is fallible; his explanation of biblical truth is fallible. There is no guarantee that the link between an infallible Bible and the church will be an infallible link. The gift of teaching does not guarantee infallible teaching. And yet, even though the gift of teaching is fallible and even though it lacks intrinsic, divine authority, we know it is of immense value to the church. We are all edified and built up by gifted teachers. God is in it. He does use it. It is a spiritual gift.
Now compare this to the gift of prophecy. It is prompted by the Spirit and sustained by the Spirit and based on a revelation from God. God reveals something to the mind of the prophet (in some way beyond ordinary sense perception), and since God never makes a mistake, we know that his revelation is true. It has no error in it. But the gift of prophecy does not guarantee the infallible transmission of that revelation. The prophet may perceive the revelation imperfectly, he may understand it imperfectly, and he may deliver it imperfectly. That’s why Paul says we see in a mirror dimly (1 Corinthians 13:12). The gift of prophecy results in fallible prophecy just like the gift of teaching results in fallible teaching. So I would ask, “If teaching can be good for the edification of the church, could not prophecy be good for edifying as well, just as Paul says it is (1 Corinthians 14:3, 12, 26)—even though both of them are fallible, mixed with human imperfection, and in need of testing?
Creating a New Category in Our Thinking
The point of what I have been saying is this: we need to create a category in our thinking for a kind of speech that is Spirit-prompted, Spirit-sustained, revelation-rooted, and yet in need of testing and sifting. We need another category of prophet besides the one of true prophet, on the one hand, who spoke with infallible, verbal inspiration (the prophetic biblical authors and Jesus and the apostles), and false prophet, on the other hand, who is condemned in Deuteronomy 13:3; 18:20 (cf. Jeremiah 23:16). The teaching that we find in the Bible about prophecy is simply not exhausted by these two categories. We need a third category for the “spiritual gift of prophecy”—Spirit-prompted, Spirit-sustained, revelation-rooted, but mixed with human imperfection and fallibility and therefore in need of sifting.
I say sifting because in 1 Thessalonians 5:19–22 that is what happens. It is not the prophet who is being tested as true or false. It is the prophecies that are being sifted for what is good and bad. “Do not quench the Spirit, do not despise prophecies, but test everything; hold fast to what is good, abstain from every form of evil.” This is not an either/or situation where you either have a true, infallible prophet or a false, presumptuous prophet. It is a situation in which some of the prophecy is good and some is not.
Paul says that if we despise it because of this imperfection, we quench the Spirit. I hope you want to avoid that with all your heart. How shall we do that? There is so much more to say. I will pick it up here tonight, give additional reasons, and practical implications. May the Lord himself teach us even this afternoon.
NT Prophecy differs from OT Prophecy…..John Piper
John Piper contends along the same lines as Wayne Grudem that NT prophecy was of a different character than OT prophecy. I appreciate how Piper acknowledges and concedes why people would have a hang-up over such a declaration. He also argues that the NT gift of teaching is fallible and a good analogy of how NT prophecy works:
Spirit-Prompted yet No Intrinsic, Divine Authority
Now ask yourself this question: Did Joel and Peter and Luke think that all the men and women—old and young, menservants and maidservants—would become prophets in the same sense that Moses and Isaiah and Jeremiah were prophets, that is, people who spoke with verbal inspiration and with the very authority of God and who could write infallible Scripture? Is the prophesying of Acts 2:17 that sort of prophecy? Or is there a difference?
I believe there is a difference. I don’t think the gift of prophecy today has the authority of the Old Testament prophets or the authority of Jesus and the apostles. Or, to put it more positively, this sort of prophecy is prompted and sustained by the Spirit and yet does not carry intrinsic, divine authority.
One of the reasons that this kind of prophecy is so hard to get a handle on today is that most of us do not have categories in our thinking for a Spirit-prompted statement that doesn’t have intrinsic, divine authority. That sounds like a contradiction. We stumble over a kind of speech that is prompted and sustained by the Holy Spirit and yet is fallible. But I am going to try to show this morning and this evening that this is what the gift of prophecy is in the New Testament and today. It is a Spirit-prompted, Spirit-sustained utterance that does not carry intrinsic, divine authority and may be mixed with error. Now if that makes the gift of prophecy seem insignificant and unedifying, consider the analogy of the gift of teaching.
The Analogy of the Gift of Teaching
Would you not say that, when the spiritual gift of teaching is being exercised, teaching is prompted and sustained by the Spirit and is rooted in an infallible, divine revelation, namely, the Bible? The gift of teaching is the Spirit-prompted, Spirit-sustained act of explaining biblical truth for the edification of the church. And all of us would say it is tremendously valuable in the life of the church. But would any of us say that the speech of a teacher, when he is exercising the gift of teaching, is infallible? No. Would we say it has divine authority? Only in a very secondary sense would we say so. Not in itself, not intrinsically, but in its source, Bible.
Why is it that a gift that is Spirit-prompted and Spirit-sustained and rooted in an infallible revelation (the Bible) is nevertheless fallible, mixed with imperfection, and only has secondary, derivative authority? The answer is this: A teacher’s perception of biblical truth is fallible; his analysis of biblical truth is fallible; his explanation of biblical truth is fallible. There is no guarantee that the link between an infallible Bible and the church will be an infallible link. The gift of teaching does not guarantee infallible teaching. And yet, even though the gift of teaching is fallible and even though it lacks intrinsic, divine authority, we know it is of immense value to the church. We are all edified and built up by gifted teachers. God is in it. He does use it. It is a spiritual gift.
Now compare this to the gift of prophecy. It is prompted by the Spirit and sustained by the Spirit and based on a revelation from God. God reveals something to the mind of the prophet (in some way beyond ordinary sense perception), and since God never makes a mistake, we know that his revelation is true. It has no error in it. But the gift of prophecy does not guarantee the infallible transmission of that revelation. The prophet may perceive the revelation imperfectly, he may understand it imperfectly, and he may deliver it imperfectly. That’s why Paul says we see in a mirror dimly (1 Corinthians 13:12). The gift of prophecy results in fallible prophecy just like the gift of teaching results in fallible teaching. So I would ask, “If teaching can be good for the edification of the church, could not prophecy be good for edifying as well, just as Paul says it is (1 Corinthians 14:3, 12, 26)—even though both of them are fallible, mixed with human imperfection, and in need of testing?
Creating a New Category in Our Thinking
The point of what I have been saying is this: we need to create a category in our thinking for a kind of speech that is Spirit-prompted, Spirit-sustained, revelation-rooted, and yet in need of testing and sifting. We need another category of prophet besides the one of true prophet, on the one hand, who spoke with infallible, verbal inspiration (the prophetic biblical authors and Jesus and the apostles), and false prophet, on the other hand, who is condemned in Deuteronomy 13:3; 18:20 (cf. Jeremiah 23:16). The teaching that we find in the Bible about prophecy is simply not exhausted by these two categories. We need a third category for the “spiritual gift of prophecy”—Spirit-prompted, Spirit-sustained, revelation-rooted, but mixed with human imperfection and fallibility and therefore in need of sifting.
I say sifting because in 1 Thessalonians 5:19–22 that is what happens. It is not the prophet who is being tested as true or false. It is the prophecies that are being sifted for what is good and bad. “Do not quench the Spirit, do not despise prophecies, but test everything; hold fast to what is good, abstain from every form of evil.” This is not an either/or situation where you either have a true, infallible prophet or a false, presumptuous prophet. It is a situation in which some of the prophecy is good and some is not.
Paul says that if we despise it because of this imperfection, we quench the Spirit. I hope you want to avoid that with all your heart. How shall we do that? There is so much more to say. I will pick it up here tonight, give additional reasons, and practical implications. May the Lord himself teach us even this afternoon.
Last edited:
Jethro Bodine
Member
- Oct 31, 2011
- 23,344
- 5,951
Some things God speaks to a person don't fall in the category of Biblical knowledge.
I've been a Christian for 29 years this coming January 26th and God has spoken clearly to my spirit things that could not be referenced in the Bible as being either in agreement or out of agreement with the Bible. One of them was he said I would make my living from Bryant air conditioning equipment. It was a shot out of the dark, and it was utterly absurd (I'll spare you the details) but it ended up being as true as the chair I'm sitting on.
I mention the 29 years because in all that time I can count on one hand (maybe two) the number of times God has pushed his voice into my heart. I cringe at people who say this happens all the time. But, who am I to doubt another person's experience?
Jethro Bodine
Member
- Oct 31, 2011
- 23,344
- 5,951
But that's the playground of the true prophet....the lonely life of the messenger of hard truth.
Jethro Bodine
Member
- Oct 31, 2011
- 23,344
- 5,951
Piper's a smart cookie. I'll have to give this a good read when I have time. Hope he doesn't let me down, lol.
Jethro Bodine
Member
- Oct 31, 2011
- 23,344
- 5,951
I've seen the Holy Spirit descend on a congregation.
It was like the shimmering heat at the end of a long road on a hot summer day. I didn't make the connection between that and the tongues of fire on Pentacost until prolly fifteen years later. I think God let me see it (he told me to open my eyes when I had them closed during praise and worship) because I had started to doubt the truth of tongues. The moment the Spirit hit the tops of the heads of the people--who all had their eyes closed--they exploded into their personal tongues gifts in unscripted unison.
Apart from one time I shared it with a brother in that congregation, it took me years to share that story with people.
Last edited:
Jethro Bodine
Member
- Oct 31, 2011
- 23,344
- 5,951
Depends on if God attaches some kind of condition on it.
Blake
Member
- Oct 7, 2014
- 1,000
- 611
I have never seen a vision of God nor have I had any sort of burning bush experience, but I have been spoken to by the Lord... not extremely often... but there have been a few times, in the form of a thought which was not my own (hard to explain unless you've had it happen), in the form of spiritual confirmations (the same Bible verse coming to me from many different sources, frequently), and in manifestations of otherworldly joy and peace, often accompanied by uncontrollable tears. Maybe being in the presence of God is not the same as hearing from Him, but it is very communicative.
I think my favorite is when God speaks through song. You might have heard a song hundreds of times before, but one day you're listening to it, and the Spirit gets involved, and suddenly the Lord is speaking directly to your heart and moving mountains therein.
I think my favorite is when God speaks through song. You might have heard a song hundreds of times before, but one day you're listening to it, and the Spirit gets involved, and suddenly the Lord is speaking directly to your heart and moving mountains therein.
Blake
Member
- Oct 7, 2014
- 1,000
- 611
One of the times I mentioned happened on New Years Eve. I had been going through a little bit of a rough patch, dealing with self-condemnation, putting myself through the ringer (and I'm sure the adversary might have been speeding it along in some way) -- the meditation of my heart had been "discipleship" for a couple of weeks and I was feeling terribly down and out. I have betrayed Christ more than Judas, denied Him more than Peter, what place is there for me as a disciple, when will I ever love the Lord like I desire to, in action and not just in thought?
At a service we had at church, the Spirit was moving strongly. There have only been a handful of church experiences I've had in my life where the atmosphere permeated with holiness, you could hear the sobs of the saints all around the church, a divine sweetness had come to dwell with us, and to equip us for the year to come.
As I was there on my knees basically bawling my eyes out and pouring out to God, He spoke to me. "Here is my disciple." And there I was. Not a disciple because of mighty deeds of evangelism or personal purity or advancement, but because I poured out my love and my heart and my soul to Him and begged only that He bring me ever nearer unto Him.
I am not so hard on myself anymore. I offer up my brokenness to Abba and move forward in His love and grace.
At a service we had at church, the Spirit was moving strongly. There have only been a handful of church experiences I've had in my life where the atmosphere permeated with holiness, you could hear the sobs of the saints all around the church, a divine sweetness had come to dwell with us, and to equip us for the year to come.
As I was there on my knees basically bawling my eyes out and pouring out to God, He spoke to me. "Here is my disciple." And there I was. Not a disciple because of mighty deeds of evangelism or personal purity or advancement, but because I poured out my love and my heart and my soul to Him and begged only that He bring me ever nearer unto Him.
I am not so hard on myself anymore. I offer up my brokenness to Abba and move forward in His love and grace.
Je'di-Benjamin
Member
- Dec 29, 2014
- 86
- 12
Grate question, I have some scripture for you=) of cores be cautious with what people say and We are given rules through Paul the Apostle prophet to how we are to prophecy and pray generally. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+14:26-40&version=ESV
Then this is what Rabbi Yeshua has to say He sends the "advocate" The Holy Spirit. Itz LONGish https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+14&version=KJV