"Seeing" the New Jerusalem

[Lehigh3]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Preterists believe Biblical eschatology is Covenantal. [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]

~Notice that Peter is following the same chronological order of John*s Revelation. Peter was “looking for†and “hastening†the coming new heavens/earth. Why was he looking for it? Because he knew that it was to come in his own days. That*s simple to understand. Yet, I have been told by Bible believing Christians that “cannot see†the new heavens and the new earth! I ask them if they can “see†the “righteousness of Christ†imputed to them, or the fact that they have been “born again,†or the fact that they are “seated with Christ.†Can you “see†these things with the eyes of the flesh?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Rather, in using the language that centers on Jesus Christ and the cross, the “righteousness†that Peter is referring to is that “righteousness in Christ,†wherein the believer, “dwelling†with God, being made one with the Father through Christ, is counted as worthy to enter into the kingdom. This is what John “sees†in Revelation 21 and 22. What began at the cross in Jerusalem, ended at the fiery destruction of the holy of holies in Jerusalem in AD 70.~
"Seeing" the New Jerusalem
[/FONT]

 

[Sam21]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Preterists believe Biblical eschatology is Covenantal. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]~Notice that Peter is following the same chronological order of John*s Revelation. Peter was “looking for†and “hastening†the coming new heavens/earth. Why was he looking for it? Because he knew that it was to come in his own days. That*s simple to understand. Yet, I have been told by Bible believing Christians that “cannot see†the new heavens and the new earth! I ask them if they can “see†the “righteousness of Christ†imputed to them, or the fact that they have been “born again,†or the fact that they are “seated with Christ.†Can you “see†these things with the eyes of the flesh?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Rather, in using the language that centers on Jesus Christ and the cross, the “righteousness†that Peter is referring to is that “righteousness in Christ,†wherein the believer, “dwelling†with God, being made one with the Father through Christ, is counted as worthy to enter into the kingdom. This is what John “sees†in Revelation 21 and 22. What began at the cross in Jerusalem, ended at the fiery destruction of the holy of holies in Jerusalem in AD 70.~[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"Seeing" the New Jerusalem[/FONT]

You said,"Peter knew that it(new heavens/earth)would come in his day"...NOT SO, Peter was told by the Lord Himself that he would DIE and not live to see the return of Christ.

 

[Lehigh3]

You said,"Peter knew that it(new heavens/earth)would come in his day"...NOT SO, Peter was told by the Lord Himself that he would DIE and not live to see the return of Christ.

The writer (Sam Frost) is merely directing our attention (& focus) to "audience relevance" in the scripture. Yes, Peter, was martyred before AD70- & Paul wasn't technically of those "we, who are alive and remain" either- for he was martyred even before Peter.
However, the audience relevance & the "generation" that would see God's wrath were the Jews after the flesh in that wicked generation.
Jesus declared in Matt.16:27-28- that "some" of His disciples would live to see the kingdom come in power.
27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

I'm sure Jesus wasn't boasting that some would live a year or 2 more, just to make it to Pentecost either! He is not referring to Pentecost, as some think.

 

[Hitch]

You said,"Peter knew that it(new heavens/earth)would come in his day"...NOT SO, Peter was told by the Lord Himself that he would DIE and not live to see the return of Christ.

Sam, do you think the 'heavens and earth, were unaffected by the resurrection of Christ?

 

[Sam21]

The writer (Sam Frost) is merely directing our attention (& focus) to "audience relevance" in the scripture. Yes, Peter, was martyred before AD70- & Paul wasn't technically of those "we, who are alive and remain" either- for he was martyred even before Peter.
However, the audience relevance & the "generation" that would see God's wrath were the Jews after the flesh in that wicked generation.
Jesus declared in Matt.16:27-28- that "some" of His disciples would live to see the kingdom come in power.
27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

I'm sure Jesus wasn't boasting that some would live a year or 2 more, just to make it to Pentecost either! He is not referring to Pentecost, as some think.

I simply noticed that you made a statement that was contrary to scripture and I pointed out that your statement was contrary to scripture. While I am on that subject,Peter was told that he would die, however John was not told that he would die which left the impression with many in the church that John would live to see the return of Christ because if Christ returned John would be gathered to Christ in the sky and would not die a physical death. This demonstrates that at the return of Christ the saints are actually gathered off the earth.

 

[Sam21]

Sam, do you think the 'heavens and earth, were unaffected by the resurrection of Christ?

I only know what is recorded in the bible.

 

[Hitch]

I only know what is recorded in the bible.

LOL Wow Sam Its nice to meet someone completely unaffected by any teaching,books or sermons, a pure 'biblical man'.


Funny though since you are so perfectly founded, that it was so easy to get you to run and hide.

 

[Lehigh3]

While I am on that subject,Peter was told that he would die, however John was not told that he would die which left the impression with many in the church that John would live to see the return of Christ because if Christ returned John would be gathered to Christ in the sky and would not die a physical death. This demonstrates that at the return of Christ the saints are actually gathered off the earth.

John 21:21-24 NKJV
21 Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, “But Lord, what about this man?â€
22 Jesus said to him, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.â€
23 Then this saying went out among the brethren that this disciple would not die. Yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you?â€
24 This is the disciple who testifies of these things, and wrote these things; and we know that his testimony is true.

I think you are mistaken. John even corrects his contemporaries' supposition!

 

[Sam21]

John 21:21-24 NKJV
21 Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, “But Lord, what about this man?â€
22 Jesus said to him, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.â€
23 Then this saying went out among the brethren that this disciple would not die. Yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you?â€
24 This is the disciple who testifies of these things, and wrote these things; and we know that his testimony is true.

I think you are mistaken. John even corrects his contemporaries' supposition!

Sigh! My point was that if the church believed that John would not die it was because they believed that Jesus would return physically to physically catch away the believers as described in Matt 24. In other words the first church was waiting for the same return of Christ that we are waiting for(I thought you were preterist?).

 

[Lehigh3]

Sigh! My point was that if the church believed that John would not die it was because they believed that Jesus would return physically to physically catch away the believers as described in Matt 24. In other words the first church was waiting for the same return of Christ that we are waiting for(I thought you were preterist?).

How do you know the church believed that? Didn't John state the truth, at least for some to understand? And they did. The return of the Lord had to occur in his lifetime. And perhaps the nature of His coming is misunderstood. And why do we need it to be strictly "physical" in Matthew 24?

Show me, pls, where in the scripture is the nature of Jesus' return in Matt.24 described as physical?

 

[Sam21]

The fact that Jesus told Peter that he would die is proof that Jesus return could not occur during the lifetime of Peter, because Jesus was not specific about the death of John(what if I let him tarry till I come)many in the church believed(falsely)that John would not die, however the truth of their belief was that IF Jesus did return during the lifetime of John that John,and therefore the entire church,would not die but be gathered as described by Jesus in Matt24. This is clear evidence that the church believed that when Christ returned it would be a physical catching away of the saints(no one would live out the rest of their lives and die).
Jesus went physically into heaven so that the disciples would understand that he would return physically(as you seen this Jesus go so shall he return). The first church was not waiting to die, they were waiting to be gathered by Jesus so they would not have to die...therefore the idea that John would not die(John would be gathered). If Jesus had returned in the first century we would not be here, it really is as simple as that.

 

[Lehigh3]

The fact that Jesus told Peter that he would die is proof that Jesus return could not occur during the lifetime of Peter, because Jesus was not specific about the death of John(what if I let him tarry till I come)many in the church believed(falsely)that John would not die, however the truth of their belief was that IF Jesus did return during the lifetime of John that John,and therefore the entire church,would not die but be gathered as described by Jesus in Matt24. This is clear evidence that the church believed that when Christ returned it would be a physical catching away of the saints(no one would live out the rest of their lives and die).
Jesus went physically into heaven so that the disciples would understand that he would return physically(as you seen this Jesus go so shall he return). The first church was not waiting to die, they were waiting to be gathered by Jesus so they would not have to die...therefore the idea that John would not die(John would be gathered). If Jesus had returned in the first century we would not be here, it really is as simple as that.

I thought John made sense. Can't decipher what you wrote there though.

I asked to describe Jesus' return in Matt.24.? How "physical" was it?

Matt 24:25 -- Jesus explicitly tells the apostles that these dire events will be experienced by them (as also in Matt 24:33-34). They will be the generation to see these things Jesus is describing come to pass (not some distant future generation). By comparing Matt 24:25 with similar statements in John 14:28, John 13:19 and John 16:4, we see that they all signal events in the apostles' near future. Christ always told his apostles things they would need to know beforehand, that it could be to their benefit when the things came to pass before their eyes.

Matt 24:26-28 -- Jesus forewarns them not to follow false messianic movements in the desert or in the Temple chambers, which had precise first-century relevance for them (Antiquities of the Jews, 20:8:6; Wars, 6:5:2). The desolation is like lightning over the whole land from east to west, and where the carcasses are strewn, there will be the Roman Eagles (i.e, the infamous Eagle Ensigns of the Roman armies that were planted all over Jerusalem during the Roman Jewish war). The Roman eagle ensigns served as a symbol of the Jews' defeat at the hand of their enemies. Most commentators believe this war and passage also was the fulfillment of Moses' predictions in Deuteronomy 28:49 and the verses following. All this came to pass in 66-70AD (see also: Josephus, Wars, 4:5:1; 5:1:2,3,5).


Matt 24:29-31 -- Christ speaks of the end signs. This passage hinges upon the apocalyptic language of the great prophets Isaiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, David, etc. in exactly the same way they used such language for God's judgments against nations and individuals in their own times. Compare Christ's words with God's coming to O.T. Babylon in 539BC (Isa 13:10-13, 13:1, and 13:17), God's coming to Edom in 703BC (Isa 34:3-5), God's coming to Egypt in 572BC (Ez 32:7-11), God's coming to Nineveh in 612BC (Nahum 1). So, in like manner, Jesus Christ is now also seen as coming in that same glory of the Father (cf. Matt 16:27; John 17:5). Jesus came to first-century Israel and demolished it in the same glory as the Father's cloud-comings in the OT era (cf. Isaiah 19:1-2). Thus, this passage speaks of Christ's full equality and oneness with Jehovah. The Parousia of Christ is signified by the fall of Jerusalem and the Holy Temple. Many cosmic signs were also witnessed in that period: the angels, voices, and glorious brightness of God are witnessed at the temple and around Jerusalem as recorded in Josephus, Tacitus, and the Midrash (Josephus, Wars, 6:5:3; 2:22:1-2; 4:4:5; 6:5:2-3; Tacitus, Histories, v. 13; Midrash, Lam 2:11). All torah-observing, Messiah-rejecting Jews were gathered into Jerusalem from all over the world at Passover Feast in 67AD and were shut in by the Zealot and Roman armies. Now, locked in the giant furnace of the city, millions were destroyed (see: Matt 13:40-43, Luke 19:40-44, Matt 23:33-38, Luke 23:28-31; Matt 21:40-45). It is no surprise that rabbis today call 70AD the "end of biblical Judaism." Indeed, the faithful and newly consummated Church-bride was gathered and spared God's desolations and wrath. The Church-nation of Christ, thus fully built and established, is never to be destroyed. The Church becomes the eternal Temple and Priesthood of God (2 Cor 6:16; Eph 2:19-22; 1 Peter 2:9). Christianity emerges distinct from Judaism and becomes the universal and one true Faith of the Living God and the Holy Nation. Christ's followers were destined to occupy all nations to gather the elect from all peoples into Abraham's blessing (Gal 3:7-9.14,16,26-29; Gen 12:1-3). The teachings and prophecies of Christ and the apostles are fully and historically vindicated by this historic destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 66-70.

 

[Alabaster]

How do you know the church believed that? Didn't John state the truth, at least for some to understand? And they did. The return of the Lord had to occur in his lifetime. And perhaps the nature of His coming is misunderstood. And why do we need it to be strictly "physical" in Matthew 24?

Show me, pls, where in the scripture is the nature of Jesus' return in Matt.24 described as physical?

I suppose 'clouds', 'shout', 'dead in Christ', 'graves', and 'sky' are all spiritual concepts.

 

[reba]

Gen 9:13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.

Exo 16:10 And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud.

Exo 14:19 And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:
Exo 14:20 And it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel; and it was a cloud and darkness to them, but it gave light by night to these: so that the one came not near the other all the night.

Exo 40:37 But if the cloud were not taken up, then they journeyed not till the day that it was taken up.

Num 9:17 And when the cloud was taken up from the tabernacle, then after that the children of Israel journeyed: and in the place where the cloud abode, there the children of Israel pitched their tents.

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.



The cloud/s of the Lord is/are interesting....

 

[Lehigh3]

I suppose 'clouds', 'shout', 'dead in Christ', 'graves', and 'sky' are all spiritual concepts.

The opposite of literal is not "spiritual." It is figurative. And the prophetic language used by the Holy Spirit needs to be discerned as such, since we have the OT background as a gauge for our studies.

Even the word "cloud" can have a prophetic meaning.
In my notes of prophetic symbols:
Cloud- is an emblem of prosperity & glory. To ride on clouds is to rule & conquer.
Daniel said "One like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven," To which our Lord adds an explanation of the symbol, "with power and great glory." (Matt.24)

So far I see a limited "physical" coming in the scripture. Similar to what Josephus described as cosmic thunderings, voices, & armies of angels in the sky, it is apparent that "as lightning is seen from east to west" that's about how "physical" the nature of His coming was.

 

[reba]

Joh 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.


I agree with you here Sam.... I dont read this as Jesus saying John will be alive i read this as Jesus saying it is not your business Peter, I am the potter you the clay.

 

[Lehigh3]

Back to the New heavens & earth.

Many think that Rev.21 &22 is a picture & time of a perfect heaven that came down from heaven (if it came down from heaven- what happened to God's heaven?!!)

Yet, proof in the this symbolic & hyperbolic book of a spiritual state on earth by God's words that include our material world & the fact that this is not a physical garden of Eden.

How do we know? Because for one, the gospel call for salvation is still going out to the unsaved!!

[FONT=ARIAL,HELVETICA,SANS-SERIF]"Now, Revelation 22:14 clearly teaches that through obeying His commandments (1 John 3:22-23), men would have right to the tree of life and enter into the gates of the city. In other words, through faith in Jesus Christ, we enter into the gates of the city. Well, if all was done and the city came, only to have all the elect in heaven and everyone else separated from God, then who are these coming into our perfect city, and from where are they coming? Well, the answer is in verse 15. This describes those who are outside the city. This seems to describe the natural man, does it not? Not only this, but this is very similar to what we already observed. [/FONT]
[FONT=ARIAL,HELVETICA,SANS-SERIF]If this is the New Heaven and the New Earth, and everything is supposed to be perfect as the literalist affirms, and there is no more death or disease or sorrow, then why would there need to be a river for the healing of nations? If the nations were perfect and all was well in this perfect physical planet, then why in the "world" would there need to be healing? Because that is the purpose of the Gospel-to heal the sin-sick soul. The Gospel is Christ, the river of life flowing through the saved body of Christ (the church) toward the lost and dying world reaching only those in whom God intended the Gospel to prosper (Ephesians 5:26). [/FONT]
[FONT=ARIAL,HELVETICA,SANS-SERIF]Read Ezekiel 47:1-12. This last verse sounds familiar, doesn't it. Actually, it not only reminds us of Revelation 22:2, the leaf never fading reminds us of Psalm 1:3. [/FONT]
[FONT=ARIAL,HELVETICA,SANS-SERIF]It has sometimes been asserted that if the Second Advent is past, it deprives us of our share in the Bible and in the promises of God. The statement is based on a curious misconception of the facts of the case. Is fulfilled prophecy worthless? Is not the past a great revelation of God and of human nature, and as such has it not deep and eternal significance? Or is history mere waste paper simply because it relates to the past and not to the future ? In reality the record which the Scriptures embody of God's dealings with His ancient people the Jews from the call of Abraham down to their destruction as a settled nation constitutes a stupendous object-lesson for all succeeding generations. It reveals a God who in His severity towards sin, His compassion to the sinner, and His mercy to the penitent, is the same yesterday, today and for ever. To the end of time it makes sure to the humblest believer the living presence and the undying sympathy and love of the risen and triumphant Christ. Need any man be spiritually poor and destitute, who by personal experiment can find out for himself the truth of this? Surely not."[/FONT]

The entire link here:
If all Prophecy has been fulfilled, then isn't the Bible Irrelevant?

 

[Lehigh3]

So with the eyes of the Spirit, can you yet see "the Revelation of Jesus Christ?"

Some partial-preterists will say that the New Jerusalem in the Bible, hasn't come yet. Is it bc they believe a literal interpretation of the Text? Do you think that is a description of heaven? OR heaven on earth? And how so then?

Rev.21:1,
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth.

With the destruction & abrogation of the typical system associated with the law of Mosses & the Mosaic age, John saw a new ordered system in its place- one where "righteousness dwells" (2Pet.3:13)......as distinguished from the iniquity& disbelief which marked the Jewish commonwealth in its last days.
The imagery of a new heavens & earth is poetic & descriptive language from Isaiah.
It had historical application for judgment on Israel & the nations - & immediate application in this verse - of God's rejection of national Israel & the destruction of the city & temple joined to the coming of Christ. (Isa.66:5,6,15,24)

Although the earthly city Jerusalem was to be razed & burned (AD70) God foretold of a new creation, a new heavens & earth, & a new Jerusalem. (the church universal)

The spiritual paradise lost in the garden would be restored in Christ. The new earth described by the prophet corresponds with the "regeneration" & "restitution of all things" spoken by Christ & the apostles. (Matt.19:28; Acts3:21).

It describes the spiritual regeneration of both Jew & Gentile when the creature itself was delivered from the bondage of corruption (sin & death) into the glorius liberty of the sons of God. (Rom. 8:19-23)

That is the new heavens & new earth that is shown to John in Rev.21. ;)