"The Antichrist" theory; a fable

[lenbache]

The Angel told Daniel in 12:4 to seal up the words of his book until the time of the end, meaning that, his prophecies could not be understood and properly interpreted until they had come to fruition during the end times.

If we believe that verse then we must also believe that "the Antichrist" theory and all the teachings which surround that theory is nothing more than a fable, which was created more than 400 years ago by our Protestant forefathers who had a venemous hatred for the Catholic Church and for the Pope.

Do you all believe that verse and the angel of God?, or do you believe our Protestant fathers?

 

[Agricola]

The Antichrist is not a theory or a fable. Yes it may be true that the Antichrist was used as a political weapon to attack ones enemies. If you have a proper look at Daniels prophecies, it is indeed true that most things he speaks of seems like a fantasy, especially to people who lived 400 years ago. In fact many things that Daniel writes of seemed like wild fantasy even 60 odd years ago.

It is only within living memory of the older generations of this world that we have actully progressed technologically enough to bring about a number of things, such as where the dead prophet lies for 3 days and then comes back to life again, which is seen by everyone around the world and the ability to destroy the world in a global war.

Then of course we have the creation of Israel. Another country also come into being recently, Jordon, which will play a part in prophecy. Everywhere you look the prophecies that are to come are beginning to make sense and to take shape, We live in exciting times as it is only now we see that a number of things Daniel speaks of can be achieved. Amazing to think thousands of years have past with people looking at that and scratching thier heads in bewilderment, then in our times it is clear. This must be a good indication to show we are extremely close to the return of the Messiah.


The rule of the Antichrist is very real and pivitol to Prophecy and the return of Christ. We know who the antichrist will be. The Antichrist will be the person who will bring peace to the world, with a global solution which will see all nations surrender power to him. He will allow the Jews to build the Temple and allow sacrifices, but then after about 3 and half years he will set himself up as God and demand to be worshiped.

Why should this be a myth? Yes it can and often is used incorrectly and wrongly, but its still going to happen and is not a myth or fable or a lie made up to attack Catholic church.

 

[Vic C.]

I won't dare say it is or isn't a myth, but I do know this:

We have Dispensational Premillennialism, Historic Premillennialism, Postmillennialism, etc. Within the beliefs we have, Pre Trib, Mid Trib, Post Trib, Pre Wrath "raptures" and those who believe in no physical rapture at all. We have historicists, futurists, preterists; those who believe antichrist is a person and those who believe it is a "system".

We have those who believe in one rapture, multiple raptures, etc. We all have different views on who the Restrainer is; some believe the 70th. week is in the future and label it as the "tribulation week". Some say it has nothing to do with a future seven year tribulation period. ... and so on.

All of them say they do have one thing on common; they all say their beliefs are derived from the Word of God.

 

[lenbache]

The traditional teaching of the church says that, Sometime in the future, (whether pre, mid, or post trib), a strongman called "the Antichrist" will arise, and will sit in a rebuilt "temple in Jerusalem", claiming to be God. And that, he will take away the daily "animal sacrifices", and will go after "the Jews" to persecute them."

This is not a new theory. It was created hundreds of years ago by the Protestant Reformers of Europe, and brought to America by our Founding fathers and the English settlers.

Aside from the fact that the Antichrist theory is not scriptural, the question remains, "Is the theory correct given the scripture in Daniel which says that the prophetic scriptures are sealed until the time of the end?

 

[Vic C.]

The traditional teaching of the church says that, Sometime in the future, (whether pre, mid, or post trib), a strongman called "the Antichrist" will arise, and will sit in a rebuilt "temple in Jerusalem", claiming to be God. And that, he will take away the daily "animal sacrifices", and will go after "the Jews" to persecute them."

This is not a new theory. It was created hundreds of years ago by the Protestant Reformers of Europe, and brought to America by our Founding fathers and the English settlers.

Aside from the fact that the Antichrist theory is not scriptural, the question remains, "Is the theory correct given the scripture in Daniel which says that the prophetic scriptures are sealed until the time of the end?

Full understanding of the prophecy? Absolutely not... but be careful about ripping out portions of verses and using it as prooftext.

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Right up until the times of the end, there will be people diligently searching the scripture (run to and fro) and an increasing knowledge of prophecy will be given to them. As a matter of fact, Newton was convinced that time was during his lifetime and believed God chose him to interpret Daniel and Revelation. He actually did a decent job.

Which brings me to my next point; the above belief, which I underlined, was not the view of the Reformers. They were Amillennial . They basically believed much of what Augustine believed, except for their belief that the Papacy was antichrist. This belief wasn't even unique to the Reformation. It can be found as far back as 12th. century.

http://www.christiantrumpetsounding.com ... _views.htm

For a decent site on Reformation views see http://www.historicist.com

The above underlined position is called Dispensational Premillennialism and does not have it's roots in Reformed Theology. This position is newer then you think. Though it proposed by a couple Jesuit Priests in the late 16th. century, it became widely known and refined due to the teachings of John Nelson Darby (1800-1882). The Reformation started in the 1500's.

 

[lenbache]

The traditional teaching of the church says that, Sometime in the future, (whether pre, mid, or post trib), a strongman called "the Antichrist" will arise, and will sit in a rebuilt "temple in Jerusalem", claiming to be God. And that, he will take away the daily "animal sacrifices", and will go after "the Jews" to persecute them."

This is not a new theory. It was created hundreds of years ago by the Protestant Reformers of Europe, and brought to America by our Founding fathers and the English settlers.

Aside from the fact that the Antichrist theory is not scriptural, the question remains, "Is the theory correct given the scripture in Daniel which says that the prophetic scriptures are sealed until the time of the end?

Full understanding of the prophecy? Absolutely not... but be careful about ripping out portions of verses and using it as prooftext.

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Right up until the times of the end, there will be people diligently searching the scripture (run to and fro) and an increasing knowledge of prophecy will be given to them. As a matter of fact, Newton was convinced that time was during his lifetime and believed God chose him to interpret Daniel and Revelation. He actually did a decent job.

Which brings me to my next point; the above belief, which I underlined, was not the view of the Reformers. They were Amillennial . They basically believed much of what Augustine believed, except for their belief that the Papacy was antichrist. This belief wasn't even unique to the Reformation. It can be found as far back as 12th. century.

http://www.christiantrumpetsounding.com ... _views.htm

For a decent site on Reformation views see http://www.historicist.com

The above underlined position is called Dispensational Premillennialism and does not have it's roots in Reformed Theology. This position is newer then you think. Though it proposed by a couple Jesuit Priests in the late 16th. century, it became widely known and refined due to the teachings of John Nelson Darby (1800-1882). The Reformation started in the 1500's.

The fact remains that, "the Antichrist" teaching was created hundreds of years ago. That alone should give us cause to look at the teaching with suspician if we are to believe the scripture in Daniel which says the prophetic scriptures cannot be understood until the time of the end.

The angel of the Lord said CLEARLY that the words of Daniel's prophecies would be sealed until the time of the end, meaning that no one would be able to understand their meaning until those prophecies had come to pass in the end times.

AND YET, partly because of ignorance of the scriptures, but mainly because of their dislike for the Pope and Catholicism, John Darby and the creators of the Antichrist teaching did what God warned against, and that is, they added to the words of the prophetic scriptures, thus creating their own version of end-time events.

Sadly it is the version which most, if not all have come to believe.

 

[Vic C.]

I think I'm not following your thoughts all the way through. Do you not believe there is an antichrist (false messiah) of some sort or are you just against the most popular view of the day?

Do you realize John wrote about antichrist over 1,900 years ago?

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
1 John 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Maybe it would be best for our understanding if you were to briefly explain to us what you believe about eschatology. It would be be better than telling us what you don't believe. Thanks.

 

[lenbache]

I think I'm not following your thoughts all the way through. Do you not believe there is an antichrist (false messiah) of some sort or are you just against the most popular view of the day?

Do you realize John wrote about antichrist over 1,900 years ago?

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
1 John 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Maybe it would be best for our understanding if you were to briefly explain to us what you believe about eschatology. It would be be better than telling us what you don't believe. Thanks.

I believe that the traditional teaching about a coming false messiah called "the Antichrist" is a myth, and is not Biblical.

I believe that all end-time scriptures; Daniel, parts of Revelation, 2nd Thes.2, etc, are references to AMERICA.

I believe that God has sent strong delusion to the churches of America because they will not believe the truth of these matters.

 

[lenbache]

[

quote="Agricola"]The Antichrist is not a theory or a fable. Yes it may be true that the Antichrist was used as a political weapon to attack ones enemies. If you have a proper look at Daniels prophecies, it is indeed true that most things he speaks of seems like a fantasy, especially to people who lived 400 years ago. In fact many things that Daniel writes of seemed like wild fantasy even 60 odd years ago.

The rule of the Antichrist is very real and pivitol to Prophecy and the return of Christ. We know who the antichrist will be. The Antichrist will be the person who will bring peace to the world, with a global solution which will see all nations surrender power to him. He will allow the Jews to build the Temple and allow sacrifices, but then after about 3 and half years he will set himself up as God and demand to be worshiped.

[/quote]

If the creators of the Antichrist fable had actually studied the book of Daniel as well as the book of Revelation they would have known that the man of lawlessness could not possibly be an individual, but rather "a people".
In Daniel 9:26 they are in fact referred to as "the people of the prince", meaning the people of the devil.

These are the people which are depicted as "the ten horns" in both Daniel and Revelation.

In their visions of the end, Daniel saw them as the ten horns within the little horn or mighty horn. John likewise saw them as the ten horns upon Babylon.

"Count the number of the beast", John said in Rev.18:18, "for it is the number of a man, (meaning a nationality of man) and his number is 600, 60, and 6."

The only way one can arrive at those numbers is to multiply "the ten horns" by 6, and "the ten horns" by 60, and "the ten horns" by 600, and so on, and so forth.

Does anyone here wanna argue that the ten horns are NOT the man of sin; son of perdition?

 

[KenEOTE]

This is interesting so are you saying that America in the Antichrist? I am just curious. I am trying to see where you are going with this.

 

[lenbache]

This is interesting so are you saying that America in the Antichrist? I am just curious. I am trying to see where you are going with this.

"Antichrist" is another term for the "man of sin", commonly referred to as "man of lawlessness". Therefore, no, America is not the man of lawlessness.
It is however the nation which has the man of lawlessness.

It's the nation which has fallen away and has exalted the man of lawlesssness above God.

America is the "fourth kingdom" in Daniel 7:23. And, also described as a "little horn" that waxed exceeding great" in chapter 8.

It's "Babylon the Great" in Revelation.

It's "the holy place" of which Jesus spoke in Matt.24:15.

And it's "the temple of God" which Paul referred to in 11Thes.2.

America is at the center of ALL end-time scriptures.

 

[KenEOTE]

I just don't see how you can come to all those conclusions that America is all those things at the same time. I think some are refering to Israel. Granted the theories would have made more sense if Israel wasn't around, But it is.

 

[lenbache]

I just don't see how you can come to all those conclusions that America is all those things at the same time. I think some are refering to Israel. Granted the theories would have made more sense if Israel wasn't around, But it is.

End-time events spoken of in the prophetic scriptures occur within one specific nation. It's a great and mighty CHRISTIAN nation; "kingdom" which came out of Europe.

In DANIEL 7:23-26 and again in 8:9 the prophet describes quite well that nation, and the 2 peoples (the "ten kings" and "ten horns") within that nation who are involved in those end-time events.

That nation is the same "Babylon" of Revelation.
It's the same "holy place" of which Jesus spoke in Matt.24:15, AND "the temple of God" spoken of by Paul in 11Thes.2.

 

[KenEOTE]

But how do you get it to be the USA? That is my question.

 

[KenEOTE]

My question would be.. What part does Israel play in these prophecies and what about the fact that Babylon Exists today? The real city. My friend is in Iraq and has been there. So we have a real city called Babylon, we have a real state of Israel. Do we throw all that out and say it all has to do with America. That is what I am wondering.

 

[lenbache]

My question would be.. What part does Israel play in these prophecies and what about the fact that Babylon Exists today? The real city. My friend is in Iraq and has been there. So we have a real city called Babylon, we have a real state of Israel. Do we throw all that out and say it all has to do with America. That is what I am wondering.

Ken,
The prophetic scriptures are about that CHRISTIAN nation which falls away from God in the latter years, and exalts the man of lawlessness. It's as simple as that.

 

[KenEOTE]

So you say God is done with Israel. Daniel, Ezekiel and the other OT prophets are not Christian Prophets they were Jewish. The word Christian is not used in any of those prophecies.

In fact one prophecy that was fulfilled happened in 1948. Israel came back into existence what do we do about that?

 

[lenbache]

So you say God is done with Israel. Daniel, Ezekiel and the other OT prophets are not Christian Prophets they were Jewish. The word Christian is not used in any of those prophecies.

In fact one prophecy that was fulfilled happened in 1948. Israel came back into existence what do we do about that?

The prophetic scripture in Dan.9:25 about the reestablishment of the nation of Israel in 1948 is simply given as the starting point for the "last days" or 70 year timeline for Christ's return to this earth. That's the subject of verses 24 and 25.

Verses 26 and 27 and about AMERICA.

 

[KenEOTE]

Well i disagree. I think America is not what is referred to in Daniel. He was speaking to the people of Israel.

 

[Vic C.]

The prophetic scripture in Dan.9:25 about the reestablishment of the nation of Israel in 1948 is simply given as the starting point for the "last days" or 70 year timeline for Christ's return to this earth. That's the subject of verses 24 and 25.

Verses 26 and 27 and about AMERICA.

May I ask how yo came up this? If you are looking at Daniel and thinking he is talking about some "in our future" third Temple, you are way off.

Dan 9:25 isn't about the reestablishment of the Nation of Israel in 1948. It is about rebuilding Jerusalem and the Temple that was destroyed by the Babylonians. The decree to rebuild was given about 536-538 BC, most likely by Cyrus. The actual rebuilding began about 20 years later. Read the book of Ezra; it gives a general account of the rebuilding and by doing so, dates it's completion.

From somewhere around this point in time is where the 490 year prophesy is calculated.

Verses 9:26-27 are Messianic verses. Vs. 26 is describing the final destruction of the physical Temple in 70 AD. Vs. 27 is about Jesus establishing His new Covenant with the Jewish people and His death on the Cross effectively makes null all Temple the sacrifices and the oblations.

Remember, the veil torn in half represents the exposing of the most inner part of the Temple, The Holiest of Holies, making it available to all. The Bible speaks of a raising up of a new Temple, but He was talking about Himself. HE is the new Temple!

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
John 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
John 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

Remember in Mark, it said:

Mark 14:58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.

Peace,
Vic