The APOSTASIA in 2 Thes 2.3

[MisterE]

I have a question for those that take the APOSTASIA in 2 Thes 2.3 as an apostasy, rebellion, or a falling away. Paul tells them that they know they are not in the Day of the Lord because the APOSTASIA hasn't happened. But, how would a believer know what THE APOSTASIA looks like. A general religious apostasy is something that develops over time, not a specific event. How will we know when we see this APOSTASIA?

 

[electedbyHim]

There are at least three interpretations of "the apostasy":

(1) A falling away from the faith by professed believers, to such a degree that it is a definitely recognizable event.

(2) An apostasy associated with the Antichrist which would be a definitely recognizable event.

(3) Not a falling away from religion but a departure from the earth, i.e., the Rapture.

Note: David Dean actually lists 4 ways the apostasy has been interpreted - "What is meant by the apostasia and the “revealing of the man of lawlessness”? The term apostasia has generally been understood in one of four ways. (1) An appositive that refers to the man of lawlessness himself. (In this view only one event is in view: the “revealing of the man of lawlessness.” [Ed: View held by John MacArthur]) (2) A “falling away” from the truth, either by the professing Christian church rejecting the historic Christian faith or Jews rejecting the God of their fathers or non-Christians denying any claims of a superior being and instead proclaiming their own absolute supremacy. A wide range of termini a quo for these hypotheses is possible, reaching even before the opening of the seventieth week [Ed: Daniel's Seventieth Week]. (3) An active rebellion against God and the accompanying growth of ungodliness in the world at large. (4) The physical departure of the church in the rapture [Ed: See Thomas Ice below]. (Does 2 Thessalonians 2-1-3 Exclude The Pretribulational Rapture?)

INTERPRETATION #1​

Thomas Constable favors interpretation #1 writing that "Such a (religious) departure had begun in Paul's day (1Ti 4:1-3; 2Ti 4:3-4; Jas 5:1-8; 2Pe 2:1-3ff; 2Pe 3:3-6; Jude 1:1-25). However it had not yet reached the proportions predicted to characterize "the apostasy" about which Paul had instructed his readers when he was with them… When the Rapture (Ed: Referring to a Pre-Tribulation Rapture) takes place and all true Christians leave the earth, this apostasy will overwhelm the human race." (Expository Notes) (Constable also authored the commentary on Second Thessalonians in the Bible Knowledge Commentary).

Hiebert favors interpretation #1 - The crucial Day of the Lord will not come "until the rebellion occurs, and the man of lawlessness is revealed." Paul is thinking of two distinct although related events. The two designations do not refer to "a single phenomenon" as Moffatt suggests (Ed: This seems to be the interpretation MacArthur favors - see below). The two verbs, emphatic by position, serve to distinguish the events. The man of lawlessness is not the personal embodiment of the rebellion, nor is he simply the personal culmination of the apostasy. Although the two events are clearly related as expressions of enmity towards God, they are yet distinct. The rebellion, or apostasy, indicates a tragic movement within the sphere of professed Christendom, the treason of the avowed friends of Christ, whereas the public manifestation of the man of lawlessness in the arena of history marks the personal culmination of the hostility of the avowed enemies of Christ." (Ed: But see discussion below where Dr John MacArthur links the apostasy with the man of lawlessness, stating that the ultimate apostasy is when he carries out the "Abomination of Desolation" described by Jesus in Mt 24:15-note)… A common view (of "the apostasy") is that the reference is to "the apostasy of Christians from their faith to error and unrighteousness." Since the context clearly associates this apostasy with the time of Christ's second coming, the reference portrays the end time apostasy within Christendom. Then "conditions will be ripe for people, especially those who call themselves Christians but are not really such, to turn their backs on God in what they do as well as in what they already have in thought." In this scene of apostasy, some would also include, or restrict it to, the Jews at the beginning of the Great Tribulation who will turn from God's truth to worship the Antichrist. Whatever the precise identity of these apostates, "this worldwide anti-God movement will be so universal as to earn for itself a special designation: 'the apostasy'—i.e., the climax of the increasing apostate tendencies evident before the rapture of the church." (1 & 2 Thessalonians- D. Edmond Hiebert)

INTERPRETATION #2​

John MacArthur - Paul’s use of the definite article (ED: "the" in the Greek phrase "te ["the"] apostasia") reveals that he had in mind not a general flow or trend, but a specific, identifiable act of apostasy. The apostasy will be a blasphemous act of unprecedented magnitude. (ED: From what he says in the next sentence, MacArthur seems to be referring to the Abomination of Desolation standing in the Holy Place - which marks the midpoint of the Seven Year Tribulation [Daniel's Seventieth Week] - see notes on Mt 24:15) The apostle identified the apostasy by naming the key character connected with it: the man of lawlessness. Understanding who that key person is is a prerequisite to identifying the apostasy event. (1 & 2 Thessalonians Commentary)

Notice that if MacArthur's interpretation is correct, then the Antichrist's taking of his seat in the Temple (2Th 2:4+, Mt 24:15+) would seem to mark the beginning of the Day of the Lord and also the beginning of the last 3.5 year Great Tribulation.

INTERPRETATION #3​

Interpretation #3 is discussed below.

Comes first - First is the Greek proton which means first in time, order, place, rank, importance. In the present context it is reasonable to interpret proton as referring to that which is first in time or order. In other words, first "the apostasy" will occur, then the "man of lawlessness" is revealed, then the Day of the Lord.

John MacArthur notes that Paul "did not tell his readers that they would live to experience the apostasy and the unveiling of the man of lawlessness. Paul’s point was merely that the apostasy will precede the Day of the Lord. And since the apostasy has not yet taken place, the Day of the Lord could not have arrived." (1 & 2 Thessalonians Commentary)

Various translations of apostasy - falling away = KJV, NKJV; apostasy = NASB, Weymouth; revolt = Williams, JB; rebellion = Moffat, NEB, LB, RSV, NIV; rejection = Phillips.

Apostasy (646)(apostasia from aphistemi = depart derived from apo = separation + histemi = to stand) is a noun which literally describes a "stand off" (or "a standing off") and thus is a departure, a defection or falling away. In English apostasy means the abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief. The only other NT use of apostasia is where Paul was accused of "teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia) Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs." In the Septuagint (Lxx) apostasia is used in Joshua 22:22 (describes "an unfaithful act [apostasia] against the LORD"), 2Chr 29:19 (describes King Ahaz during "during his reign in his unfaithfulness [apostasia]") and Jer 2:19 ("Your [God speaking to unfaithful Judah] own wickedness will correct you, and your apostasies will reprove you").

Preceptaustin.org

 

[MisterE]

There are at least three interpretations of "the apostasy":

(1) A falling away from the faith by professed believers, to such a degree that it is a definitely recognizable event.

(2) An apostasy associated with the Antichrist which would be a definitely recognizable event.

(3) Not a falling away from religion but a departure from the earth, i.e., the Rapture.

Note: David Dean actually lists 4 ways the apostasy has been interpreted - "What is meant by the apostasia and the “revealing of the man of lawlessness”? The term apostasia has generally been understood in one of four ways. (1) An appositive that refers to the man of lawlessness himself. (In this view only one event is in view: the “revealing of the man of lawlessness.” [Ed: View held by John MacArthur]) (2) A “falling away” from the truth, either by the professing Christian church rejecting the historic Christian faith or Jews rejecting the God of their fathers or non-Christians denying any claims of a superior being and instead proclaiming their own absolute supremacy. A wide range of termini a quo for these hypotheses is possible, reaching even before the opening of the seventieth week [Ed: Daniel's Seventieth Week]. (3) An active rebellion against God and the accompanying growth of ungodliness in the world at large. (4) The physical departure of the church in the rapture [Ed: See Thomas Ice below]. (Does 2 Thessalonians 2-1-3 Exclude The Pretribulational Rapture?)

INTERPRETATION #1​

Thomas Constable favors interpretation #1 writing that "Such a (religious) departure had begun in Paul's day (1Ti 4:1-3; 2Ti 4:3-4; Jas 5:1-8; 2Pe 2:1-3ff; 2Pe 3:3-6; Jude 1:1-25). However it had not yet reached the proportions predicted to characterize "the apostasy" about which Paul had instructed his readers when he was with them… When the Rapture (Ed: Referring to a Pre-Tribulation Rapture) takes place and all true Christians leave the earth, this apostasy will overwhelm the human race." (Expository Notes) (Constable also authored the commentary on Second Thessalonians in the Bible Knowledge Commentary).

Hiebert favors interpretation #1 - The crucial Day of the Lord will not come "until the rebellion occurs, and the man of lawlessness is revealed." Paul is thinking of two distinct although related events. The two designations do not refer to "a single phenomenon" as Moffatt suggests (Ed: This seems to be the interpretation MacArthur favors - see below). The two verbs, emphatic by position, serve to distinguish the events. The man of lawlessness is not the personal embodiment of the rebellion, nor is he simply the personal culmination of the apostasy. Although the two events are clearly related as expressions of enmity towards God, they are yet distinct. The rebellion, or apostasy, indicates a tragic movement within the sphere of professed Christendom, the treason of the avowed friends of Christ, whereas the public manifestation of the man of lawlessness in the arena of history marks the personal culmination of the hostility of the avowed enemies of Christ." (Ed: But see discussion below where Dr John MacArthur links the apostasy with the man of lawlessness, stating that the ultimate apostasy is when he carries out the "Abomination of Desolation" described by Jesus in Mt 24:15-note)… A common view (of "the apostasy") is that the reference is to "the apostasy of Christians from their faith to error and unrighteousness." Since the context clearly associates this apostasy with the time of Christ's second coming, the reference portrays the end time apostasy within Christendom. Then "conditions will be ripe for people, especially those who call themselves Christians but are not really such, to turn their backs on God in what they do as well as in what they already have in thought." In this scene of apostasy, some would also include, or restrict it to, the Jews at the beginning of the Great Tribulation who will turn from God's truth to worship the Antichrist. Whatever the precise identity of these apostates, "this worldwide anti-God movement will be so universal as to earn for itself a special designation: 'the apostasy'—i.e., the climax of the increasing apostate tendencies evident before the rapture of the church." (1 & 2 Thessalonians- D. Edmond Hiebert)

INTERPRETATION #2​

John MacArthur - Paul’s use of the definite article (ED: "the" in the Greek phrase "te ["the"] apostasia") reveals that he had in mind not a general flow or trend, but a specific, identifiable act of apostasy. The apostasy will be a blasphemous act of unprecedented magnitude. (ED: From what he says in the next sentence, MacArthur seems to be referring to the Abomination of Desolation standing in the Holy Place - which marks the midpoint of the Seven Year Tribulation [Daniel's Seventieth Week] - see notes on Mt 24:15) The apostle identified the apostasy by naming the key character connected with it: the man of lawlessness. Understanding who that key person is is a prerequisite to identifying the apostasy event. (1 & 2 Thessalonians Commentary)

Notice that if MacArthur's interpretation is correct, then the Antichrist's taking of his seat in the Temple (2Th 2:4+, Mt 24:15+) would seem to mark the beginning of the Day of the Lord and also the beginning of the last 3.5 year Great Tribulation.

INTERPRETATION #3​

Interpretation #3 is discussed below.

Comes first - First is the Greek proton which means first in time, order, place, rank, importance. In the present context it is reasonable to interpret proton as referring to that which is first in time or order. In other words, first "the apostasy" will occur, then the "man of lawlessness" is revealed, then the Day of the Lord.

John MacArthur notes that Paul "did not tell his readers that they would live to experience the apostasy and the unveiling of the man of lawlessness. Paul’s point was merely that the apostasy will precede the Day of the Lord. And since the apostasy has not yet taken place, the Day of the Lord could not have arrived." (1 & 2 Thessalonians Commentary)

Various translations of apostasy - falling away = KJV, NKJV; apostasy = NASB, Weymouth; revolt = Williams, JB; rebellion = Moffat, NEB, LB, RSV, NIV; rejection = Phillips.

Apostasy (646)(apostasia from aphistemi = depart derived from apo = separation + histemi = to stand) is a noun which literally describes a "stand off" (or "a standing off") and thus is a departure, a defection or falling away. In English apostasy means the abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief. The only other NT use of apostasia is where Paul was accused of "teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia) Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs." In the Septuagint (Lxx) apostasia is used in Joshua 22:22 (describes "an unfaithful act [apostasia] against the LORD"), 2Chr 29:19 (describes King Ahaz during "during his reign in his unfaithfulness [apostasia]") and Jer 2:19 ("Your [God speaking to unfaithful Judah] own wickedness will correct you, and your apostasies will reprove you").

Preceptaustin.org

Thank you for such a thorough reply. I read it all and appreciate the explanation of the positions. I guess I still lean toward pre-trib because to me the APOSTASIA is an event, not a process. And, because unless I am mistaken, the subject listed in vs 1 is our gathering together with Christ. Thanks again for taking the time to replay.

 

[electedbyHim]

Thank you for such a thorough reply. I read it all and appreciate the explanation of the positions. I guess I still lean toward pre-trib because to me the APOSTASIA is an event, not a process. And, because unless I am mistaken, the subject listed in vs 1 is our gathering together with Christ. Thanks again for taking the time to replay.

Although I did not write the article, I agree with your position on pre-trib as an event.

Many will be along soon to correct this position.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[RandyK]

I have a question for those that take the APOSTASIA in 2 Thes 2.3 as an apostasy, rebellion, or a falling away. Paul tells them that they know they are not in the Day of the Lord because the APOSTASIA hasn't happened. But, how would a believer know what THE APOSTASIA looks like. A general religious apostasy is something that develops over time, not a specific event. How will we know when we see this APOSTASIA?

I trace Paul's thought to Dan 7, where the Man of Sin is viewed as "boasting against God." In Daniel, a dominant theme is Antiochus' 4's attempt to corrupt Israel's worship of the one true God. And this is sort of conflated with the Man of Sin in ch. 7.

So the Antichrist rebels against God by trying to boast over God, claiming to be God in His place among the former People of God. As Antiochus corrupted the temple worship, Antichrist takes his seat in God's Temple, perhaps a heavenly temple, to declare himself Deity, or possessing Divine powers.

There is *no way* apostasia here refers to a Pretrib Rapture. That would be absurd because the exact opposite is being said. We're told not to believe false claims of the Kingdom of Christ exist on earth through various cults because Christ will only return *from heaven* to destroy the Antichrist, just as Jesus told his Disciples in the Olivet Discourse.

 

[YeshuaGlory]

I trace Paul's thought to Dan 7, where the Man of Sin is viewed as "boasting against God." In Daniel, a dominant theme is Antiochus' 4's attempt to corrupt Israel's worship of the one true God. And this is sort of conflated with the Man of Sin in ch. 7.

So the Antichrist rebels against God by trying to boast over God, claiming to be God in His place among the former People of God. As Antiochus corrupted the temple worship, Antichrist takes his seat in God's Temple, perhaps a heavenly temple, to declare himself Deity, or possessing Divine powers.

There is *no way* apostasia here refers to a Pretrib Rapture. That would be absurd because the exact opposite is being said. We're told not to believe false claims of the Kingdom of Christ exist on earth through various cults because Christ will only return *from heaven* to destroy the Antichrist, just as Jesus told his Disciples in the Olivet Discourse.

Well you see I told you we might have some disagreements,,
'Yes you are spot on about Antiochus, very important figure in DAniel's prophesies.
PAST events = not future,, HOWEVER Antiochus can be seen as TYPE or FIGURE of such antichrists, Hitler Stalin, countless others throughout history.
I also debunk pre trib rapture, The rapture idea is completely distorted, Yes Yeshua does say 1 taken 1 left **BEHIND),, Rediculous.
No such thinga s group flying away meeting YEshua on the clouds.
But a falling away,, INDEED, This is no doctrine, no dogma,
It is reality.
Has been going on and will continue.
Has nothing to so with NOT going to a church building.,
well actually does have something to do with sunday groupings,, But i refrain and take the code of silence

 

[MisterE]

Well you see I told you we might have some disagreements,,
'Yes you are spot on about Antiochus, very important figure in DAniel's prophesies.
PAST events = not future,, HOWEVER Antiochus can be seen as TYPE or FIGURE of such antichrists, Hitler Stalin, countless others throughout history.
I also debunk pre trib rapture, The rapture idea is completely distorted, Yes Yeshua does say 1 taken 1 left **BEHIND),, Rediculous.
No such thinga s group flying away meeting YEshua on the clouds.
But a falling away,, INDEED, This is no doctrine, no dogma,
It is reality.
Has been going on and will continue.
Has nothing to so with NOT going to a church building.,
well actually does have something to do with sunday groupings,, But i refrain and take the code of silence

You wrote:

No such thinga s group flying away meeting YEshua on the clouds.

1 Thes 4.17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

What does this verse mean? We are caught up (flying away) and meeting YEshua on the clouds.

 

[electedbyHim]

Does Paul really describe a "rapture"? That seems to be the question of many skeptics and scoffers. They argue that the word "rapture" is no where to be found in Scripture. In addressing their argument, it behooves us to keep in mind that the Latin Vulgate was the primary Bible translation utilized for one thousand years preceding the Reformation. In short, the Latin Vulgate "reigned" as the primary Bible translation longer than any other translation. In the Latin Vulgate the Greek word harpazo was translated "rapiemur" which is clearly related to our English terms "Rapture" or "raptured". So those detractors who argue that the term Rapture does not appear in the Bible are only expressing their ignorance and are obviously unaware of the prominence of the Latin Vulgate translation in church history. Setting aside the argument that the word rapture (which is true) is not found in modern translations, the more important question is what does the original Greek word harpazo actually mean? Clearly it is a verb in the original Greek and verbs generally convey action. What is the picture conveyed by harpazo? (Gillian Welch & David Rawlings - I'll Fly Away)

Shall Be Caught up (726) (harpazo from haireô = take, in NT only in middle voice = haireomai = to take for oneself, to choose; akin to airo = to raise up) means to snatch up or way, to seize or seize upon, to steal (see comparison to klepto below), to catch away or up, to pluck, to pull.

Harpazo means to take suddenly and vehemently, often with violence and speed or quickly and without warning. The idea is to take by force with a sudden swoop and usually indicates a force which cannot be resisted. In eschatological terms (future events, prophetically related) as in the present verse, harpazo refers to what is often known as the "rapture" (Latin = raptura = seizing or Latin = rapio = seize, snatch)

Harpazo thus can be translated by the verb to rapture which describes the act of conveying or transporting a person from one place to another or from one sphere of existence to another. The English word rapture can also convey the idea of ecstasy as with one who is "carried out of" oneself with joy, but that is not the primary sense conveyed by the NT usage here in 1 Thessalonians.

Harpazo is future passive (so called "divine passive" in this context - the action is exerted by outside divine force) indicative (this is the mood of certainty which describes a real event, stating that this is a future fact which we can count on!) first person plural (implying in context not just individuals but many individuals, specifically the true church composed of all the believers of the church age).

The picture of individuals being snatched up and away is seen in four NT uses (see the verses below)…

(1) Of the act of the Spirit of the Lord snatching Phillip away (Acts 8:39)

(2) Of Paul being caught up to the third heaven (Paradise) (2Corinthians 12:2,4)

(3) Of believers being caught up to be with the Lord (1Th 4:17-note)

(4) Of the "child" (Jesus) being caught up to God (Re 12:5-note)

Harpazo conveys the idea of force suddenly exercised, and also well rendered by the English verb to snatch (to seize, take or grasp something {someone} abruptly or hastily with emphasis on the idea of suddenness or quickness)

The related word harpage (724) refers to robbery, plunder or seizing of one's possessions (Mt 23:25 = describing scribes and Pharisees who were "full of robbery" {greediness}, Lk 11:39, Heb 10:34). The adjective harpax (727) is used 6 times in the NT (Mt 7:15 = "ravenous {rapacious} wolves"; Lk 18:11 = "swindlers", "extortionists", "embezzlers"; 1Cor 5:10; 5:11; 6:10 = same meaning as in Lk 18:11)

The uses of harpazo in the Gospels refer to robbery or the unlawful snatching away of something or someone (see below - Jn 10:12, 28, 29; Mt 11:12; 12:29; 13:19).

Harpazo was used of rescuing one from a situation of threatening danger as in "snatching them out of the fire" (see Jude 1:23 below)

Harpazo in secular Greek was used to describe the action of a wolf which entered a flock of sheep and suddenly snatched up (harpazo) a lamb. (see John 10:12 below)

Moulton and Milligan note that harpazo was often found in secular Greek in petitions complaining of robbery.

Harpazo as noted can convey the sense of "to steal" but it differs from another Greek word klepto (English = kleptomania {from kleptes = thief} refers to a strong impulse to steal) referring to stealing secretly or with stealth whereas harpazo denotes robbing with a more violent action.

Harpazo is also used to mean forcibly to seize upon, snatch away, or take to oneself (see below Mt 11:12, John 6:15, Acts 23:10)

Harpazo is used 13 times in the NT.

Preceptaustin.org

 

[YeshuaGlory]

You wrote:

No such thinga s group flying away meeting YEshua on the clouds.

1 Thes 4.17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

What does this verse mean? We are caught up (flying away) and meeting YEshua on the clouds.

Then WEEEEEE who are alive??
Who is the WEEE
and at WHAT SPECIFIC EPOCH.
Paul should have left us a 10000 page commentary on that verse,
If God wants me to know the meaning He will reveal it to me. Frankly I am not at all interested in flying away OR even understanding this verse.
I have over 500 bks to read, vision going bad and poor health
I want to skip any so called rapture.
I'll take a rain ck please
Thanks

 

[YeshuaGlory]

OK a rapture like in Moses was raptured at death,, and Elijah raptured, many others lets not forget ENOCH at like 370 yrs of age.
Rapture is real. But I am not at all interested.
AS that idiot DARBY started that crazy idea, we should know its not tomorrow maybe not next yr, nor even in our lifetime
So why even worry about this idea????
I've seen the fallout from this idea,, Poor souls,,, they all now after 40 yrs have hangups = NOT connected to reality. Its like their spirits have died.
Go to Victory Fellowship Airline Hwy Metairie Louisiana to see what I mean. If you need proof