The Empty Graves

[Quath]

I recently heard a preacher on the radio talk about Matthew 27:50-53 - And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

It got me to wondering. Why is Jesus suppose to be so special in his resurrection? After all, this passage says a lot of other people beat Jesus to it. It implies that Jesus's resurrection was not really that special since it had been done a lot before he got his chance.

The preacher agreed that this would mean that Jesus's resurrection would not be that special and he decided that this is a metaphor. I was wondering what other think. Do you think this really happened or is it a metaphor?

 

[dancing queen]

I don't think it makes Jesus' resurection less special. Yes people had come back to life before like Lazarus, but he would still die one day. When Jesus rose again he had beaten death and would not live to die again. As at the resurection at end times, when we are given heavenly bodies.

 

[Veritas]

nice answer dancing queen. Jesus completely conquered death!

I think Matthew 27:50-53 means exactly what it says too. People raised from the dead.

Quath, also, remember the whole bit about Jesus being the sacrificial Lamb. There is significance in the shedding of His blood and death as well as rising again.

 

[Quath]

I don't think it makes Jesus' resurection less special. Yes people had come back to life before like Lazarus, but he would still die one day. When Jesus rose again he had beaten death and would not live to die again. As at the resurection at end times, when we are given heavenly bodies.

I guess I don't understand this. Isn't Jesus in heaven now along with those saints that were resurrected? I guess I am not seeing the difference like you are seeing it.

I think Matthew 27:50-53 means exactly what it says too. People raised from the dead.

I can't quite remember what radio show I heard this from. I think it may have been some Bible answer guy or something. Anyway, he was saying that it could not have really happened because people rising from the dead should have been mentioned in a lot of historical books and would not have gone unnoticed. So he said it was a metaphor to apocolyptical times that would come in the future.

I don't think it would surprise anyone that I don't think it happened. But it sounded like some Christians had a hard time with this passage. I was just curious as to hom much difficulity that it gives people.

Quath, also, remember the whole bit about Jesus being the sacrificial Lamb. There is significance in the shedding of His blood and death as well as rising again.

Yeah, if the shedding of the blood is the important part, then why did he have to die? He could have just bled some. The probably answer is "that is just the way it is." But I am curious as to how the whole story flows as well.

 

[Drew]

I guess I don't understand this. Isn't Jesus in heaven now along with those saints that were resurrected? I guess I am not seeing the difference like you are seeing it.

Hello there Quath, long time, no talkie......

Anyhoo, if you have been following any of the debates in the theology section, you may know that I have gone over to the dark side - those who believe that the dead sleep in their graves until Jesus returns. We are only following the teachings of the Scriptures, though - numerous texts which clearly state that the dead sleep as well as the following from 1 Cor 15:

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

So I actually believe that there are precisely zero "non-GodHead persons" in Heaven at this very moment. Human beings who have died in the past rest in their graves and will be called forth when Jesus returns again.

So what about the Matthew passage you quoted? I think that those people were indeed raised from death but then died again at some point. Interesting fate - to die two times. The text you quote is arguably somewhat problematic for the position that the "dead sleep", since this small subset were roused from their sleep "early". I think that the Matt text you quote only appears to contradict my take on the 1 Cor text - I think that being "made alive" (as per the 1 Cor text) refers to being given a resurrection body. And I do not think the people from the Matt text were given resurrection bodies - they were merely "ressucitated" in their "plain old" bodies.

The distinction between these people and Jesus is this: Jesus, unlike the others, was given a "new and improved" resurrection body - He is truly the firstfruits in the sense of getting such a body. The others were not given resurrection bodies but died again. Of course, I am giving my opinion - I assume that the Scriptures are silent on what happened to these people after they were raised again.

But to claim that they, or anyone else for that matter (except Jesus and God) are in Heaven at this time is to misread the Scriptures in my view.

I await the retaliatory strikes (and I am not referring to you, Quath).

 

[Quath]

I always enjoy your posts, Drew. Your version of death is pretty much what it sounded like in the Bible to me as well. It would be one way to make Jesus's resurrection special compared to the others coming back to life.

But I have a strong feeling that many will not agree with you on this.

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

Well, Quath what event was so special that they raised? More than likely they weren't physical bodies but ones that could be seen, like Jesus was seen on the road with the 2 travelers. I'm also sure many of these people were seen up until Christ departed from the Earth back to the Father in Heaven some 40 days later around Pentecost. The Bible also says he preached to the departed. Futhermore, wherever Christ is, so Anti-Christ is there also. Whether it be heaven or earth.

 

[destiny]

I recently heard a preacher on the radio talk about Matthew 27:50-53 - And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

It got me to wondering. Why is Jesus suppose to be so special in his resurrection? After all, this passage says a lot of other people beat Jesus to it. It implies that Jesus's resurrection was not really that special since it had been done a lot before he got his chance.

Notice the parts I highlighted above; wouldn't this indicate that everything hinged upon Jesus' death and resurrection? Nothing happened apart from or ahead of Him.
John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

 

[jgredline]

Hey. its one thing to raise someone from the dead....Doctors ''claim'' to have done it :wink: ...But it is entirely different to raise ''yourself'' from the dead after three days....I would like to see a doctor or Chris Angel do that....

Usher in his book the annals of the world shows in other folks chronicles through out the world of a day when the earth shook and there was a complete darkness for three hours...This is even chronicled in old Mayan writings

 

[Guest]

Hello there Quath, long time, no talkie......

Anyhoo, if you have been following any of the debates in the theology section, you may know that I have gone over to the dark side - those who believe that the dead sleep in their graves until Jesus returns. We are only following the teachings of the Scriptures, though - numerous texts which clearly state that the dead sleep as well as the following from 1 Cor 15:

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

So I actually believe that there are precisely zero "non-GodHead persons" in Heaven at this very moment. Human beings who have died in the past rest in their graves and will be called forth when Jesus returns again.

So what about the Matthew passage you quoted? I think that those people were indeed raised from death but then died again at some point. Interesting fate - to die two times. The text you quote is arguably somewhat problematic for the position that the "dead sleep", since this small subset were roused from their sleep "early". I think that the Matt text you quote only appears to contradict my take on the 1 Cor text - I think that being "made alive" (as per the 1 Cor text) refers to being given a resurrection body. And I do not think the people from the Matt text were given resurrection bodies - they were merely "ressucitated" in their "plain old" bodies.

The distinction between these people and Jesus is this: Jesus, unlike the others, was given a "new and improved" resurrection body - He is truly the firstfruits in the sense of getting such a body. The others were not given resurrection bodies but died again. Of course, I am giving my opinion - I assume that the Scriptures are silent on what happened to these people after they were raised again.

But to claim that they, or anyone else for that matter (except Jesus and God) are in Heaven at this time is to misread the Scriptures in my view.

I await the retaliatory strikes (and I am not referring to you, Quath).

It would seem your position of them dying again has a problem with:

26Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

Hebrews 9:26-28

 

[Veritas]

I don't think it would surprise anyone that I don't think it happened. But it sounded like some Christians had a hard time with this passage. I was just curious as to hom much difficulity that it gives people.

Oh. Well, count me for one of those Christians that don't have a hard time with the passage!

Quath, also, remember the whole bit about Jesus being the sacrificial Lamb. There is significance in the shedding of His blood and death as well as rising again.

Yeah, if the shedding of the blood is the important part, then why did he have to die? He could have just bled some. The probably answer is "that is just the way it is." But I am curious as to how the whole story flows as well.

Going back to the start of the story, it is highly likely God killed an animal or animals to cover Adam and Eve up. In a sense, covering their shame and sin.

The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. Genesis 3:21

Moving on we learn that life is in our blood:

For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life. Leviticus 17:11

(I think doctors should have read the Bible more in the past... the whole blood-letting idea was not quite a good one) Another interesting side note is the fact that word life in the original language, more specifically means breath of life. And now in modern times we know that indeed, the blood carries our breath.

So, yes. It is the blood that makes atonement for one's sins. And no, Jesus did not just bleed some and give up part of His life - He loved us so much He gave up all of His life for us. I think the central idea that ties the story together is God's love for us and the extent He will go to illustrate it for us and build a relationship for us. God really is reaching all the way down to us. We certainly cannot reach Him.

 

[Lewis]

I recently heard a preacher on the radio talk about Matthew 27:50-53 - And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

It got me to wondering. Why is Jesus suppose to be so special in his resurrection? After all, this passage says a lot of other people beat Jesus to it. It implies that Jesus's resurrection was not really that special since it had been done a lot before he got his chance.

The preacher agreed that this would mean that Jesus's resurrection would not be that special and he decided that this is a metaphor. I was wondering what other think. Do you think this really happened or is it a metaphor?

The other people died again' but Jesus did not. That is what makes Him special.

 

[Quath]

The other people died again' but Jesus did not. That is what makes Him special.

I guess that is something I don't entirely get. Is Jesus in heaven now? If so, isn't he the equivalent of being dead? If not how is he different from anyone else that died right now? Is it that he will come back to life once more? (But then again some prophets are also suppose to come back to life again also.)

He loved us so much He gave up all of His life for us

But it seems he didn't. He regained his life. So he gave up nothing. Right?

 

[Rick W]

Sounds like foolishness doesn't it?
:silly:

 

[Orion]

But it seems he didn't. He regained his life. So he gave up nothing. Right?

This is something that I've struggled with as well. Knowing that you won't spend an eternity in hell, and returning to the existence you had before coming to earth as a human, . . . . . . . . . I have to scratch my head on that too, as to how it was "giving up his life". :-?

 

[Rick W]

Isa 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

 

[Veritas]

Quath, this is just an observation - You seem to change your position simply to find ways to reject all possibilities

You asked about shedding of blood:

Yeah, if the shedding of the blood is the important part, then why did he have to die? He could have just bled some.

How can you be critical by basically taking the position that all He should have to do is shed blood -- then when I say He wanted to reach down to us in a big way by going to the extent of dieing for us.

He loved us so much He gave up all of His life for us

...you answer:

But it seems he didn't. He regained his life. So he gave up nothing. Right?

You immediately switch your position. Alluding to that fact that now that's not enough.

You just thought a little blood should have been enough a second ago.

The only consistent position you have is any position you can possibly come up with to reject Christ.

Do you realize what you are doing? I find this interesting... but I'm saddened by the stubborness.

 

[Lewis]

Quath, this is just an observation - You seem to change your position simply to find ways to reject all possibilities

Veritas' I could not have said that better myself. You were right on the mark' with that one.

 

[Drew]

I expressed the view in an earlier post that those who were raised as per Matthew 27:50-53 then died a second time.

It was then asserted that the text from Hebrew -"it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment" undermines this position.

I think I can make a case that it does not.

I think other Biblical evidence forces us to conclude that the Hebrews text cannot be taken strictly literally - there are exceptions.

Consider Lazarus and the little girl, both of whom were raised from death by Jesus.

If we take the Hebrews text in a strict literal fashion, we run into major problems.

If the Hebrews text determines that we all die once, then Lazarus and the little girl could not have died after they were each raised.

Are they still walking around? I highly doubt it. Where else could they possibly be except heaven?

Are they really in heaven? If so, they are either there in bodily form or in "spiritual" form (as most of you know, I do not believe in the existence of an immortal Spirit, but I assume the possibility here just for the sake of argument).

If they are in Heaven in bodily form, two possibilities exist:

1. They are in heaven in redeemed bodies.
2. They are in heavein in the kind of bodies you and I have - fallen, unredeemed bodies.

Option 1 conflicts with 1 Cor 15:22-23:

"For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him."

This text shows that it is only when Christ returns that we will be given redeemed bodies. So this option is ruled out.

Are they in heaven in bodies like you and I have right now? If so, they must be pretty darned gamey by now - our bodies decay and they have been there about 2000 years by now. So they cannot possibly be in heaven in "regular old bodies".

Many of you will suggest that they are in Heaven in spirit. If this is so, what happened to their bodies? They had to have been destroyed. Well guess what, that is what death is (to those of you who believe in an immortal soul / spirit). So they would have to have died a second time to be in Heaven is "spiritual" form. And that would violate a strict literal reading of the Hebrews text about only dying once.

For these reasons, I believe that we have no choice but to see the Hebrews "men die only once" text as a generalization that does not apply in the case of Lazarus, the little girl, and those people mentioned in Matt 27:50-53. They all died twice.

 

[Quath]

Quath, this is just an observation - You seem to change your position simply to find ways to reject all possibilities.

Well, my position on this is that it never happened. But I figured I didn't need to emphasize that. I am interesting in seeing how people who do believe that it happened reconcile this with other parts of theology and history.

I am mostly looking for logical consistency. So if death is such a sacrifice, is a 3 day death (similar to a coma) really a sacrifice? If Jesus conquored the grave, then why is he in the same state that other dead people are in?

Someone could say that the death was symbolic and wasnt truely a sacrifice in terms of a loss, but just a ceremonial sacrifoce. They could say that Jesus conquored death because he can arise whenever he wants, unlike the other dead people in heaven. But these are some quick answers I cooked up. I wanted to know what a believer thinks.

For example, Drew gave a statement that was self consistent. I don't believe what he says is true, but I understand how he logically arrives at his belief.

So I am not trying to prove anyone right or wrong, I am just trying to understand the logic of belief.