The Flip Side Of The Abortion Coin...

[Edward]

I was thinking about abortion recently, and a question formed in my mind. When girls have an abortion, the spirit of the one who would be born goes to heaven to be with God, and then God raises the child there, in heaven. But this child's destiny on earth has been thwarted. All of the child's (would be) children have their destiny's thwarted also. God must then reassign His plans to other living believers in order to bring them to fruition.

These children would be numerous. Multitudes perhaps. But is there a flip side to the coin? What about the men on earth, who have had vasectomies performed on them. If they had not had the vasectomy, then they would have had more children. Are these children in heaven also? Will these fathers get to meet all of their real children when they go to heaven also?

I had a vasectomy. We did have plans for a big family. Four kids we wanted. But after the second child was born, she freaked and said she was tired of losing her summers to pregnancy. They wouldn't let her on the good rides at the fair due to her pregnancy. She wanted to go get her tubes tied, but I'm aware of the potential complications of this procedure and the danger involved. So I figured that since she went through the pain of the childbirth, that maybe I should step up to the plate and get a vasectomy rather than her. The procedure is much safer for a man than for the woman, so that's what I did for her.

But how many kids would I have had if I had not gotten the vasectomy? Will they be in heaven? Are they really even kids, because even if life begins at conception, then that would not have taken place due to the vasectomy so maybe I wont have kids waiting for me that I didn't know about...

See what I mean? I'm not sure. What do you think?

 

[civilwarbuff]

I was thinking about abortion recently, and a question formed in my mind. When girls have an abortion, the spirit of the one who would be born goes to heaven to be with God, and then God raises the child there, in heaven. But this child's destiny on earth has been thwarted. All of the child's (would be) children have their destiny's thwarted also. God must then reassign His plans to other living believers in order to bring them to fruition.

God does not have Plan B. Nothing man has done can cause God to change His plans; you cannot take Him by surprise. You are, IMO, concerning yourself over nothing.

 

[Runner]

I decided when I was 12 years old that I would never have children, and I never did. Did I thwart some plan of God's? Should I now be concerned about imaginary children I never had but might have had? I don't think so.

An abortion kills a human life that has been conceived. There is nothing imaginary or merely "potential" about the fetus. When you are talking about a woman having her tubes tied or a man getting a vasectomy, in contrast, you are talking about imaginary children that might have been, not conceived life that clearly would have become a child if it had not been aborted.

The "kids you (or I) would have had" are not kids at all and are not in heaven; they simply have no existence. For your concern to be valid, you would have to believe (as I understand Mormons do) that there are multitudes of little child souls in heaven waiting to be born, that it is every man's and woman's obligation to bring as many of them to fruition as possible, and that to have a vasectomy frustrates God's plan. That's just not my theology at all.

 

[Edward]

God does not have Plan B. Nothing man has done can cause God to change His plans; you cannot take Him by surprise. You are, IMO, concerning yourself over nothing.

Well I'm not really worried about it. It is what it is at this point. Just curiosity.

I'm going to disagree with you about man not being able to make God change His plans. It's true that we can't take God by surprise, but scripture supports the notion that man can so talk to God and get Him to change His mind. Remember Abraham talking God into not destroying Sodom & Gomorrah if there were only 45 righteous people were found there. Then 40, 35, 30...all the way down to 5, wasn't it?
Lot got saved because of that too. Pretty sure. Plus think about how God instructs us to pray for others.

James 5:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.../

Availeth much, means will spur God to action. Although my answer is in a different context than of what you spoke, the precept is the same.

 

[jasonc]

Well I'm not really worried about it. It is what it is at this point. Just curiosity.

I'm going to disagree with you about man not being able to make God change His plans. It's true that we can't take God by surprise, but scripture supports the notion that man can so talk to God and get Him to change His mind. Remember Abraham talking God into not destroying Sodom & Gomorrah if there were only 45 righteous people were found there. Then 40, 35, 30...all the way down to 5, wasn't it?
Lot got saved because of that too. Pretty sure. Plus think about how God instructs us to pray for others.

James 5:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.../

Availeth much, means will spur God to action. Although my answer is in a different context than of what you spoke, the precept is the same.

All of which God foreknew,and planned.he foreknew those who will be saved while not forcing anyone.

 

[civilwarbuff]

If man can surprise God or make Him change His plans then He is not omniscient .......

 

[reba]

How does murder have a 'flip' side

 

[th1b.taylor]

Ed, the last two posts above mine answer your question. God knew she would freak before He created the world and He knew you would be clipped. You cannot fool God, He knows before you do.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Well I'm not really worried about it. It is what it is at this point. Just curiosity.

I'm going to disagree with you about man not being able to make God change His plans. It's true that we can't take God by surprise, but scripture supports the notion that man can so talk to God and get Him to change His mind. Remember Abraham talking God into not destroying Sodom & Gomorrah if there were only 45 righteous people were found there. Then 40, 35, 30...all the way down to 5, wasn't it?
Lot got saved because of that too. Pretty sure. Plus think about how God instructs us to pray for others.

James 5:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.../

Availeth much, means will spur God to action. Although my answer is in a different context than of what you spoke, the precept is the same.

hello Edward, dirtfarmer here

Did Noah change God's mind? God said that he was going to destroy the human race because it was always evil. We read in scripture that Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord; what does this mean? That God didn't know Noah and while he was scanning over the human race that Noah came across God's screen as a bleep and caused God to stop for a moment and look at Noah. We don't read of Noah's sons finding grace in God's eyes, but he spared them and their wives. According to scripture "all" are born sinners and destined for eternal damnation. Could it be that Noah understood when God said that water, in the form of rain, was going to fall out of the sky and then began to live for God, if so, then what would that look like since sin was not imputed at that time because there was no law.

Did Abraham really talk God out of destroying Sodom an Gomorrah? In my bible God only paused the destruction until Lot, his wife, which turned to a pillar of salt and Lot's 2 daughters could escape to Zoar.

 

[Edward]

I decided when I was 12 years old that I would never have children, and I never did. Did I thwart some plan of God's? Should I now be concerned about imaginary children I never had but might have had? I don't think so.

You're prolly right.

An abortion kills a human life that has been conceived. There is nothing imaginary or merely "potential" about the fetus. When you are talking about a woman having her tubes tied or a man getting a vasectomy, in contrast, you are talking about imaginary children that might have been, not conceived life that clearly would have become a child if it had not been aborted.

I know. But then I thought what about the guys? Lol

The "kids you (or I) would have had" are not kids at all and are not in heaven; they simply have no existence. For your concern to be valid, you would have to believe (as I understand Mormons do) that there are multitudes of little child souls in heaven waiting to be born, that it is every man's and woman's obligation to bring as many of them to fruition as possible, and that to have a vasectomy frustrates God's plan. That's just not my theology at all.

Lol, ok, sorry Brother. I didn't mean to do that to you. This was really more of a joke thread than anything. I suppose it is possible that God's plan for me in the beginning included more children than I would up with? But it's not like it's murder. It's just not comparable to a girls abortion. I don't know anything about mormons except they're a little wacked out in their theology. If my joke sounded like mormon theology, that's purely coincidental, lol.

 

[Edward]

hello Edward, dirtfarmer here

Did Noah change God's mind? God said that he was going to destroy the human race because it was always evil. We read in scripture that Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord; what does this mean? That God didn't know Noah and while he was scanning over the human race that Noah came across God's screen as a bleep and caused God to stop for a moment and look at Noah. We don't read of Noah's sons finding grace in God's eyes, but he spared them and their wives. According to scripture "all" are born sinners and destined for eternal damnation. Could it be that Noah understood when God said that water, in the form of rain, was going to fall out of the sky and then began to live for God, if so, then what would that look like since sin was not imputed at that time because there was no law.

Did Abraham really talk God out of destroying Sodom an Gomorrah? In my bible God only paused the destruction until Lot, his wife, which turned to a pillar of salt and Lot's 2 daughters could escape to Zoar.

I don't think that Noah could have changed God's mind about the flood, because man's bloodlines were mostly corrupted throughout the world and God was fixing that with the flood. Satan was trying to ensure that the Messiah could not be born. But Noah's generations (bloodline) were perfect and uncorrupted so it was able to be fixed.

Abraham did not talk God out of destroying S & G. But God reasoned with Abraham and compromised for Him. It's sort of irrelevant that God foreknew, and destroyed them anyway, because the point is more that, God did that for Abraham. If there had been the 5 righteous found there...God would have spared them, and He said so. So He did sorta change God's mind and had the back and forth going on, but by the terms 5 people, and sadly, 5 righteous could not be found so they were destroyed anyway.
Or so it seems to me...

 

[Edward]

Ed, the last two posts above mine answer your question. God knew she would freak before He created the world and He knew you would be clipped. You cannot fool God, He knows before you do.

I know, lol. Dangit, I thought I was doing a good thing at the time. But she jumped ship 20 some years later. If I'da known she was going to do that, I wouldn't have done it. I thought I was s'posed to get 'em back in the divorce, lol...

 

[th1b.taylor]

I don't think that Noah could have changed God's mind about the flood, because man's bloodlines were mostly corrupted throughout the world and God was fixing that with the flood. Satan was trying to ensure that the Messiah could not be born. But Noah's generations (bloodline) were perfect and uncorrupted so it was able to be fixed.

Abraham did not talk God out of destroying S & G. But God reasoned with Abraham and compromised for Him. It's sort of irrelevant that God foreknew, and destroyed them anyway, because the point is more that, God did that for Abraham. If there had been the 5 righteous found there...God would have spared them, and He said so. So He did sorta change God's mind and had the back and forth going on, but by the terms 5 people, and sadly, 5 righteous could not be found so they were destroyed anyway.
Or so it seems to me...

I seldom disagree with you but here you do err. God's foreknowledge is critical. The recorded conversation does map out that we are to fellowship with God on everything but God knew Abraham would make the requests before Abraham was a sparkle in his dad's or/and his mother's eyes. God knew before the Creation every single thought you and I would have because He transcends Time and He only created Time and Space for our benefit.

 

[Eugene]

What about the men on earth, who have had vasectomies performed on them. If they had not had the vasectomy, then they would have had more children.
How many kids would I have had if I had not gotten the vasectomy?

You might want to consider if God cares either way. There are many men incapable of producing children. and then there are those such as Daniel born or made eunuchs (Dan 1:7). God went on to use him mightily.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Well I'm not really worried about it. It is what it is at this point. Just curiosity.

I'm going to disagree with you about man not being able to make God change His plans. It's true that we can't take God by surprise, but scripture supports the notion that man can so talk to God and get Him to change His mind. Remember Abraham talking God into not destroying Sodom & Gomorrah if there were only 45 righteous people were found there. Then 40, 35, 30...all the way down to 5, wasn't it?
Lot got saved because of that too. Pretty sure. Plus think about how God instructs us to pray for others.

James 5:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.../

Availeth much, means will spur God to action. Although my answer is in a different context than of what you spoke, the precept is the same.

But you are ignoring Truth here.

As does my first Pastor, I have labeled myself a a Biblicist because my view is "If the Bible says it, I believe it! God inspired/wrote the entire book and in Deuteronomy 4:2 and at the end of chapter 22 of The Revelation we find God promising that not a single word will ever be added to nor subtracted from His Written Word. Oh, and there are no conflicting passages in the Bible to any man filled with the Holy Spirit for the Spirit teaches us how to reconcile them to one another.



So, in verses Jer. 23:24, Prov 15:3, 1Kings 8:27 we learn that God is Omnipresent. He is literally everywhere but wait a second, I really mean everywhere. The LORD is right this moment everywhere there is on the planet and He is still seated in the Throne Room. Where am I going? God created, out of nothing but His will, this Time/Space Continuum and every person, bird, animal, lake, just everything you see or touch is a product from the hand of God.




We find that a day in Heaven is like unto a thousand years of our time. So there is nothing here like God or Heaven. Our minds put our Omnipotent. Omniscient, and Omnipresent God all over the Earth and on the in Heaven at this moment but we must learn to cease putting God in some sort of container, there is not one He fits into anyway. No, God is, right now, in the past, in the present, and He is in the future right now!



In Rev. 17:8 and in thirteen we learn that the Book of Life is not being written but is finished and closed. How could men made like unto the image of God do that because they, like God, have a free will? God was there before it happened, He is Omnipotent and with no limits, He is Omnipresent!



I pray this helps.