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The Virgin Birth

  • Thread starter Thread starter DaScribe
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DaScribe

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I know that there are things in the New Testament that have been added. I am not aware as to whether or not some things were taken away. Nevertheless, I was in a discussion with someone who was saying that the earliest manuscripts of Mathew and Luke do not mention the virgin birth of Jesus. Does anyone know anything about this?
 
DaScribe said:
I know that there are things in the New Testament that have been added. I am not aware as to whether or not some things were taken away. Nevertheless, I was in a discussion with someone who was saying that the earliest manuscripts of Mathew and Luke do not mention the virgin birth of Jesus. Does anyone know anything about this?
From what I have heard, the virgin birth was added to appeal to pagans at the time that figured that a father for a God must mean the mother was a virgin. Just about every other hero had a virgin mother and it was almost an insult to be a great figure and not have a virgin mother.

A lot of the early birth stories appear copied from other pagan stories of the time. So secular scholars believe the virgin birth was added later. I am not sure if early manuscripts of Matthew and Luke had it or not. However, it it had been known, I would have thought that Mark would have mentioned it.
 
I don’t know about all the old manuscripts, since I am no scholar. But I do know many of them were rejected, because it was determined they had been corrupted.

But you can take the story of the virgin birth to the bank. It was necessary for Christ to have been borne of a virgin, to eliminate inherited sin. Any corruption of flesh in his birth, (as the possibility of a human father), would have not resulted in the spotless perfect sacrifice Christ offered. If Christ had of been borne of a man, anyone could have sacrificed themselves for sin. But that would not provide the forgiveness of sins for the world; Christ made. The sins of the world are passed from generation to generation by our human fathers, because that is the way the blood line is passed on, not through the mother.

So it was necessary that Christ had to be conceived of the spirit, not the flesh. This is what made Christ the Son of God, not his baptism, crucifixion, or resurrection, but his divine conception.
 
Wouldn't Jesus have inheriented sin from his mother? To go with your idea, God would need to create Jesus without a biological mother or father.
 
samuel said:
I don’t know about all the old manuscripts, since I am no scholar. But I do know many of them were rejected, because it was determined they had been corrupted.

But you can take the story of the virgin birth to the bank. It was necessary for Christ to have been borne of a virgin, to eliminate inherited sin. Any corruption of flesh in his birth, (as the possibility of a human father), would have not resulted in the spotless perfect sacrifice Christ offered. If Christ had of been borne of a man, anyone could have sacrificed themselves for sin. But that would not provide the forgiveness of sins for the world; Christ made. The sins of the world are passed from generation to generation by our human fathers, because that is the way the blood line is passed on, not through the mother.

So it was necessary that Christ had to be conceived of the spirit, not the flesh. This is what made Christ the Son of God, not his baptism, crucifixion, or resurrection, but his divine conception.

Yes - good post Samuel I agree.

. . . and Quath, Samuel is right about the blood being the means of inheritence from father to child. It is the seed by which we are born that determines the makeup of who or what we are - not the recipient of the seed.
 
Ahh, so you believe that Mary was a surrogate mother and not a biological mother. So why even involve Mary at all? Why not just create a baby? Or even simplier, God could have created Jesus as an adult, gave him a second to live and then killed him to forgive sin.

I just thing that if God is all-powerful, he could have created Jesus pure, even if he had the DNA and atoms of a regular human. So I really don't think you have to have the virgin birth to make this work.
 
Quath said:
Ahh, so you believe that Mary was a surrogate mother and not a biological mother. So why even involve Mary at all? Why not just create a baby? Or even simplier, God could have created Jesus as an adult, gave him a second to live and then killed him to forgive sin.

I just thing that if God is all-powerful, he could have created Jesus pure, even if he had the DNA and atoms of a regular human. So I really don't think you have to have the virgin birth to make this work.

No, of course you wouldn't. And that is the futility of human 'wisdom'.
 
Quath.

Of course God could have created Jesus out of absolutely nothing. But when we accept Jesus as our lord and Saviour, more than that happens. We also share in his life, death, and resurrection. All of these things are deposited into our Heavenly account. God does not look upon our old life but the life of Jesus within us.

So it was necessary that Jesus be born a baby, and grow into a man just as we do, but without sin. So his life could be credited as our life. A moment in time would not have made him an accatable sacrifice for our sin.

He grew, and faced the same problems in life as we do, and also the temptations. All of these things completed in his perfect, and sin free life is what saves us. It is not our life, or any amount of self righteouness that saves us but Jesus’ life.

As Isiah said: Isa 64:6
6: But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
KJV

But thanks be to our Lord Jesus we do not have to depend on our life, we can rest in his.
 
"No, of course you wouldn't. And that is the futility of human 'wisdom"

That's odd, since "human wisdom" is where the concept of a fatherless Jewish Messiah originates, not from G-d's prophets.
 
Well lets see.

Isa 7:14
14: Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel (God with us).
KJV

The mother was the prophetess who became Isaiah's wife within a short time after this prophecy was spoken. Therefore she was a virgin at the time this promise was given. She serves as a type of the Virgin Mary, who remained a virgin even after her miraculous conception by the Holy Spirit. The son of this prophetess, correspondingly, is a type of the Messianic Immanuel,


Matt 1:23-25
23: Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
24: Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
KJV

Now since a Virgin implies a young unmarried woman, it seems you are wrong. The virgin birth is not a product of mans wisdom, but is manifest in the wisdom of God that comes from faith.

Now just in case your Jesus has a human father, I'm sorry but that is another Jesus, one who cannot save.
 
Am I to understand that no one finds it concerning if the virgin birth was added to both gospels, but not by the original authors?
 
DaScribe said:
Am I to understand that no one finds it concerning if the virgin birth was added to both gospels, but not by the original authors?

How do you mean 'added'?
 
http://xiigates.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=240&start=0

That's the background of how the conversation began. This person is saying that the earliest/Hebrew version of Mathew and the earliest version of Luke did not have the virgin birth in them. I am not a biblical scholar of early church history and the formation of the gospels. I was hoping someone here could help me out so I don't have to enroll in a master's program to respond to this fellow :)

I have requested links to the documents he is referencing and I assume I'll get them shortly.
 
What I usually do in cases like this is to throw the burden of proof on the accuser. Then I would also contend, that he was referring to some corrupted manuscripts.

There are Bible haters, and unregenerate people who try to raise questions like this up all the time. Knowing that there are no provable answers. Such are people who write things like the Da Vinci code, and quote the Hammurabi scrolls. If you show me a text that doesn't have the Virgin birth, I will show you one that has. Where have we gotten.

You either believe that the Bible is the absolute uncorrupted word of God, or you don't. That separates the men of faith in God, from the children of Satan. By the way they refused believe God, even when he stood right in front of them. :)
 
I see that Samuel is the wise one on this point, and it is no wonder that I am in agreement with him. :-)
 
You either believe that the Bible is the absolute uncorrupted word of God, or you don't. That separates the men of faith in God, from the children of Satan. By the way they refused believe God, even when he stood right in front of them.

Ok, I am still waiting to see these documents related to the virgin birth, and based on the response I got, it sounds like they are not impressive.

However, the New Testament does have things added to it. That is undeniable. They even have brackets around the additions in some of the Bibles. Why would you pigeon hole yourself by calling it absolute and uncorrupted? There are clearly cross references that safe guard against tampering and the things that have been added do not contradict what is written as far as I know, but how can you say that it is uncorrupted, when we know that is was tampered with?

I am Christian and I do believe the Bible is Holy. But I do not think what we have as Bibles are flawless.
 
The Bibles that contain those brackets around certian verses, also cannot prove they are not correct. They only state these verses do not appear in some manuscripts. And this is usually refering to the later, and less reliable ones from the Alexandrian text.

Is it not possible these same afore mentioned men, had a hand in the translation of these new Bibles?.

The man who stands in faith is never condemned, but the one who stands in doubt is condemned already.
 
DaScribe, You might want to check out the following thread:
Mary and Joseph's "Senior Moment"

It does not deal with the manipulation of manuscripts regarding the virgin birth but deals with it in a different light of the inconsistency in how the story is told.

And welcome to the forums.
 
I know that there are things in the New Testament that have been added. I am not aware as to whether or not some things were taken away. Nevertheless, I was in a discussion with someone who was saying that the earliest manuscripts of Mathew and Luke do not mention the virgin birth of Jesus. Does anyone know anything about this?

In all my textual stidies I have never seen an omission of the virgin birth or any part of the nativity story. The only major debates for inclusion/omission are on such passages as the adulteress, the ending of Mark, and Johanine Comma. So no the story has been largely unaltered since it was written. No proof of embelishment is available.
 
DaScribe, You might want to check out the following thread:
Mary and Joseph's "Senior Moment"

It does not deal with the manipulation of manuscripts regarding the virgin birth but deals with it in a different light of the inconsistency in how the story is told.

And welcome to the forums.

First, thanks for the welcome. :D

RE: The link you posted.

My father is a local celebrity. He is on the radio. We forget about it all the time. It's only when I mention his name, which is my name, or I'm out with him and people recognize him by his voice, that I remember that he is a celebrity.

You may think there is a difference because of who Jesus is, but there really isn't. If you walk closely with God, you forget who He is all the time and have to be reminded. We tend to get comfortable with those we know best regardless of their status and sometimes forget their status as a result of proximity.

Maybe some of you will tell me that you never forget who God is. Well He's my friend and sometimes that happens with friends.
 
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