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Theologians Again

  • Thread starter Thread starter Asyncritus
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Asyncritus

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On Sunday, I looked at a commentary on Mark's gospel by some theologian or the other: and in common with several others on my friend's bookshelf, THE INTRODUCTION WAS LONGER THAN THE GOSPEL.

In fact, one of the other books was ENTIRELY AN INTRODUCTION OF SOME KIND!!!

What's with these people?

And I couldn't really see any remarks about how one should live one's life in it (which is the purpose of scripture, isn't it?).

There, isn't that wonderful?
 
On Sunday, I looked at a commentary on Mark's gospel by some theologian or the other: and in common with several others on my friend's bookshelf, THE INTRODUCTION WAS LONGER THAN THE GOSPEL.

In fact, one of the other books was ENTIRELY AN INTRODUCTION OF SOME KIND!!!

What's with these people?

And I couldn't really see any remarks about how one should live one's life in it (which is the purpose of scripture, isn't it?).

There, isn't that wonderful?

Thousands of Theologians will not be in heaven. Being a Theologian doesn't save you.

Many Theologians know about Jesus, but they never knew Him personally
.

Jesus said to some people in Bible that they knew the Scripture well but they were still not saved.
 
Asyncritus

Christian Biblical commentaries are written by Biblical expositors, Biblical explainers, Biblical interpreters. They are written from the viewpoint of a Christian denomination. Some can be useful. Most are not due to obvious bias. They are theologians. Because a theologian is “a person who engages or is an expert in theology”, which is “the study of the nature of God and religious belief... religious beliefs and theory when systematically developed.” (Oxford Dictionary) Christian theologians produce Christian systematic theologies and studies on Biblical grammar and Biblical translation from a Christian viewpoint as well Christian Biblical commentaries. Biblical commentaries and Systematic Theologies are nothing more nor less than forms of Creeds that explain denominational viewpoints in a more extensive form.

But a true theologian is one who studies theology, without bias to Creed or religion. Theologians that present theology from one perspective aren’t true theologians. They’re just people who interpret the writings of their religion. Christian theologians, through their generally denominationally educated knowledge, are simply interpreters of their own Christian denomination.

Is it possible to understand the Bible apart from the practice of interpretation? That question is pretty much agreed upon in Christianity with a no answer. Including those who claim the help of an outside supernatural being. And there is some truth in that since everyone uses resources that are outside of the Bible to help them to understand the Bible.

As one who knows Biblical Greek, I use what I learned from Christian grammarians in the form of instruction and lexicons to help me understand the New Testament. It leads me to a believing position that’s totally unlike any Christian denomination. Simply because I decided on a course of open mindedness in an attempt to know what the Bible is saying apart from what are interpretations of the Bible. And it led me to a Biblical understanding so that I no longer consider myself a Christian nor a part of Christianity.

A person in my position usually follows one of two answers to that dilemma.

They simply start another community that agrees with their own understanding of the Bible. In Protestantism, this is the most common way. Most Protestant denominations, including Protestantism itself began in this way. One can make a good argument, that wouldn’t be agreed with by either denomination, that Orthodoxy and Catholicism began in this way.

The other way is to adhere to a particular denomination. Is adhering to a particular denomination the answer to this dilemma? The Orthodox, RCC, Churches of Christ, Jehovah’s Witnesses, indeed all who have their own Creedal statements or writings that define who they are, oral or written, are among the many Christian denominations that believe that by adhering to their denomination, the dilemma is solved. To me, all that solves is to have a belief based on a compromise with a denomination.

Thus I continue to believe what I believe is true apart from a Christian denomination and apart from Christianity itself. And I have a different solution to my dilemma. I attend the Church of a Christian denomination because it is the only way I can practice what I believe to be the communal nature of Biblical reality. I can’t reveal to the members of that denomination what I believe, because if I did, they would practice their form of closed communion against me. A practice common to all denominations that believe they are the true expression of the Bible. Practiced in some form by every Christian denomination showing they all believe they are according to their own distinctions the true expression of Biblical reality.

Theologians Again? I know you’re referring to educated apologists of denominational viewpoints. But consider the denomination you belong to and your own apology for the viewpoint of that denomination. Consider that I, as one considered a denomination in my own right, though I think more than one constitutes a true denomination, and that in order to be a true Christian denomination I must be a part of or at least consider myself a part of Christianity. Consider that I am considered an apologist for what is considered a denominational viewpoint.

Consider my belief that includes doctrinal relativism and doctrinal tolerance toward all Biblical doctrinal beliefs. A keeping of the unity of the Spirit, instead of a keeping of the unity of a denominational doctrinal standard. Being a conservative that would be against homosexuality and abortion, surely Christian conservatives would at least consider such a thing. But they can’t because it would mean giving up their own denominational distinctions that they consider to be the true expression of Biblical reality. So they continue in their disobedience of their own claimed Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. Not realizing that they are as much their own Lord and Saviour as they consider me to be my own Lord and Saviour, simply because I decided that what I believe is true is at least as true as what anyone else believes.

FC
 
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On Sunday, I looked at a commentary on Mark's gospel by some theologian or the other: and in common with several others on my friend's bookshelf, THE INTRODUCTION WAS LONGER THAN THE GOSPEL.

In fact, one of the other books was ENTIRELY AN INTRODUCTION OF SOME KIND!!!

What's with these people?

And I couldn't really see any remarks about how one should live one's life in it (which is the purpose of scripture, isn't it?).

There, isn't that wonderful?

Remember what Jesus said about it being better for some if a millstone was tied around their neck and them dropped into the sea? Pick any theologian. Ya can't miss.
 
Remember what Jesus said about it being better for some if a millstone was tied around their neck and them dropped into the sea? Pick any theologian. Ya can't miss.

Wasn't that in relation to those who abused children? :chin
 
Wasn't that in relation to those who abused children? :chin
No. Teaching anyone to disobey any of his commands. The outcome for those who do is the millstone syndrome. You might note that a disciple of Jesus can only be produced by "teaching them to obey what I've commanded". You got any other problems with what he says, sport?
 
No. Teaching anyone to disobey any of his commands. The outcome for those who do is the millstone syndrome. You might note that a disciple of Jesus can only be produced by "teaching them to obey what I've commanded". You got any other problems with what he says, sport?

I will need you to show me in Scripture where Bible and Jesus taught that, (besides about causing a child to sin), about a millstone was tied around their neck and them dropped into the sea.

Can you please show me all the verses that says it? Thank you.
 
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I will need you to show me in Scripture where Bible and Jesus taught that, (besides about causing a child to sin), about a millstone was tied around their neck and them dropped into the sea.

Can you please show me all the verses that says it? Thank you.

Begin with Gen. ch 1 and end with Revelation ch. 22:21. I am not going to be drawn into another wizzing contest with you.
 
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Asyncritus

Christian Biblical commentaries are written by Biblical expositors, Biblical explainers, Biblical interpreters. They are written from the viewpoint of a Christian denomination. Some can be useful. Most are not due to obvious bias. They are theologians. Because a theologian is “a person who engages or is an expert in theologyâ€, which is “the study of the nature of God and religious belief... religious beliefs and theory when systematically developed.†(Oxford Dictionary) Christian theologians produce Christian systematic theologies and studies on Biblical grammar and Biblical translation from a Christian viewpoint as well Christian Biblical commentaries. Biblical commentaries and Systematic Theologies are nothing more nor less than forms of Creeds that explain denominational viewpoints in a more extensive form.

But a true theologian is one who studies theology, without bias to Creed or religion. Theologians that present theology from one perspective aren’t true theologians. They’re just people who interpret the writings of their religion. Christian theologians, through their generally denominationally educated knowledge, are simply interpreters of their own Christian denomination.

Is it possible to understand the Bible apart from the practice of interpretation? That question is pretty much agreed upon in Christianity with a no answer. Including those who claim the help of an outside supernatural being. And there is some truth in that since everyone uses resources that are outside of the Bible to help them to understand the Bible.

As one who knows Biblical Greek, I use what I learned from Christian grammarians in the form of instruction and lexicons to help me understand the New Testament. It leads me to a believing position that’s totally unlike any Christian denomination. Simply because I decided on a course of open mindedness in an attempt to know what the Bible is saying apart from what are interpretations of the Bible. And it led me to a Biblical understanding so that I no longer consider myself a Christian nor a part of Christianity.

A person in my position usually follows one of two answers to that dilemma.

They simply start another community that agrees with their own understanding of the Bible. In Protestantism, this is the most common way. Most Protestant denominations, including Protestantism itself began in this way. One can make a good argument, that wouldn’t be agreed with by either denomination, that Orthodoxy and Catholicism began in this way.

The other way is to adhere to a particular denomination. Is adhering to a particular denomination the answer to this dilemma? The Orthodox, RCC, Churches of Christ, Jehovah’s Witnesses, indeed all who have their own Creedal statements or writings that define who they are, oral or written, are among the many Christian denominations that believe that by adhering to their denomination, the dilemma is solved. To me, all that solves is to have a belief based on a compromise with a denomination.

Thus I continue to believe what I believe is true apart from a Christian denomination and apart from Christianity itself. And I have a different solution to my dilemma. I attend the Church of a Christian denomination because it is the only way I can practice what I believe to be the communal nature of Biblical reality. I can’t reveal to the members of that denomination what I believe, because if I did, they would practice their form of closed communion against me. A practice common to all denominations that believe they are the true expression of the Bible. Practiced in some form by every Christian denomination showing they all believe they are according to their own distinctions the true expression of Biblical reality.

Theologians Again? I know you’re referring to educated apologists of denominational viewpoints. But consider the denomination you belong to and your own apology for the viewpoint of that denomination. Consider that I, as one considered a denomination in my own right, though I think more than one constitutes a true denomination, and that in order to be a true Christian denomination I must be a part of or at least consider myself a part of Christianity. Consider that I am considered an apologist for what is considered a denominational viewpoint.

Consider my belief that includes doctrinal relativism and doctrinal tolerance toward all Biblical doctrinal beliefs. A keeping of the unity of the Spirit, instead of a keeping of the unity of a denominational doctrinal standard. Being a conservative that would be against homosexuality and abortion, surely Christian conservatives would at least consider such a thing. But they can’t because it would mean giving up their own denominational distinctions that they consider to be the true expression of Biblical reality. So they continue in their disobedience of their own claimed Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. Not realizing that they are as much their own Lord and Saviour as they consider me to be my own Lord and Saviour, simply because I decided that what I believe is true is at least as true as what anyone else believes.

FC

A synopsis of your belief system is, as to 1, 2, 3, 4, etc.?
 
Hello Former Christian,

This portion of your statement caught my attention: Consider my belief that includes doctrinal relativism and doctrinal tolerance toward all Biblical doctrinal beliefs. A keeping of the unity of the Spirit, instead of a keeping of the unity of a denominational doctrinal standard.

Re doctrinal relativism - constantly within the New Testament & the writings of Paul in particular a battle between truth & error is revealed.Paul continually encourages Christian to hold to the truth & not be swayed by believing error Eph4:11-15.

So how can doctrinal relativism (which basically says per postmodernism teachings that you have your truth & I have my truth even if they contradict each other) be legitimate for a Christian?

The Bible makes it quite clear that doctrinal error can destroy your faith (1Tim4:1).
 
Saltwater

Are you saying that if I don’t agree with your interpretation of the Bible, I believe in doctrines of demons?

FC
 
Saltwater

Are you saying that if I don’t agree with your interpretation of the Bible, I believe in doctrines of demons?

FC

My apologies Former Christian as no offense was intended,

That was no at all my intent!! I find your comments pretty informative & well thought out & clearly written.

My interest is in your doctrinal relativism statement so I will repeat that porion of my statement & would appreciate an answer so that I do not misunderstand your beliefs/understanding.

"Re doctrinal relativism - constantly within the New Testament & the writings of Paul in particular a battle between truth & error is revealed.Paul continually encourages Christian to hold to the truth & not be swayed by believing error Eph4:11-15.

So how can doctrinal relativism (which basically says per postmodernism teachings that you have your truth & I have my truth even if they contradict each other) be legitimate for a Christian?"

What I am asking you as well as other readers to comment on is where doctrinal relativism fits into our CHristian beliefs - if at all as there is truh & there are false teachings per 1Tim4:1 (+ other verses). :study

Looking forward to an informative reply. :study
 
Saltwater

No offence taken. I was questioning whether or not you were under denominationalist thinking. Denominationalists consider their own understanding of doctrine to be THE understanding of doctrine. They mistakenly equate their own understanding of truth with objective truth.


Christianity.

I don’t agree with the interpretation of Acts 11:26 that says “the disciples first called themselves Christians in Antioch”. The term Christian is associated with those who call themselves Christians, who are in turn associated with Christianity, rather, some denomination thereof.

Christianity is human in nature, a man-made religion. Its nature is evidenced chiefly by it denominationalism. It doesn’t follow Christ who explicitly desires those who believe to be one. It doesn’t follow Paul who explicitly taught those who believe to keep the unity of the Spirit and to grow in doctrine. The exact opposite of the practice in Christianity.

I don’t believe in the Historic Christian Faith, or the Protestant version of it, The Historic Biblical (or Biblical Historic) Christian Faith.

So be aware. I’m not a follower of Christianity or any of its denominations. I’m NOT a Christian.


The Bible

The Bible is full of discrepancies. But the Bible, with all its flaws, is the written word of God. That is still my belief.

The Bible is not the written word of God in the sense of Protestant Sola Scriptura. Sola Scriptura refers to the authority of a Book considered by all to have a Divine source, the “Bible alone”....replacing the authority of interpretations of the Bible by a particular human leadership, centered in the Pope of Rome. That was the original meaning in the sixteenth century. Some Protestants have tried to expand on that original meaning, and even change it to some degree. But Sola Scriptura still refers to the authority of the Bible alone.

The Bible alone is just letters, the words of men, the words of long dead men, that must be interpreted to have any kind of understanding at all. But Protestantism continued a practice it inherited from what eventually became the Catholic Church. The practice of Bible interpretation. Protestantism merely replaced one Bible interpreter with another. In time, with many Biblical interpreters. This led to the extreme doctrinal diversity that one sees today. This led to the many authoritative Churches that one sees today. Protestantism came into existence to show one thing. Christianity is denominational as part of its human nature.

Christianity understands the Bible through the practice of Biblical interpretation. Even if they claim the help of the Holy Spirit, they in practicality are understanding the Bible by their own mind when they practice Biblical interpretation. Because that’s what interpretation is. It’s “the action of explaining the meaning of something, an explanation or way of explaining” (Oxford Dictionary). This is a secular definition. It doesn’t include the source of interpretation. It assumes that the source is the human mind. As does this definition of explain, “make (an idea, situation, or problem) clear to someone by describing it in more detail or revealing relevant facts or ideas” (Oxford Dictionary). The practice of Biblical interpretation is an exercise of the human mind alone. If one does gain insight through an outside source, and then one interprets what has been gained, the result is that the product is a human interpretation of what was gained. The interpretation is still an exercise of the human mind alone.

I favor the practice of interpretation in relation to a writing that where the author is absent or dead. Such a writing can only be understood by this means. I oppose the practice of Biblical interpretation because it is a human practice of understanding that which has a supernatural source through natural means. It is understanding a writing the author of which continues to be present and alive. I believe, indeed, I must believe, that my understanding of the Bible is through the teaching of Jesus Christ through the Spirit. Because I not only believe in a living personal God, but I also believe in a living Jesus Christ who teaches those who walk by the Spirit in a personal way.

And I must believe that this is the same manner in which all who are in Christ are intended to understand the Bible. I can believe nothing more nor less without reverting to Atheism. For obvious reasons, I can NOT believe that any denomination of Christianity or any particular Christian interpreter of the Bible is the source of understanding the Bible.


Reversionism

There those who have taken Protestant Reformational thinking to it’s logical conclusion. They believe that the Bible is the written word of God that reveals the first century practice. They desire to return to that first century practice. But they attempt to do so through a practice they inherited through Protestantism, the practice of Biblical interpretation. Thus they are divided. Thus they have Creeds. Thus they follow a specific interpretation. Some Creeds are written. Some Creeds are quite extensive as in the Recovery Churches (referring to a recovery of Christianity) who follow the writings of Witness Lee. Some Creeds are oral, as in the Creed of the Restoration Churches (referring to the restoration of Christianity) and followed conservatively today by the Churches of Christ. Their mistake is they never left the denominational thinking of Christianity, particularly of Protestantism. Thus they are expressions of denominational Christianity.

The believers in the first century were referred to as disciples in the Gospels and in Acts. But when they wrote the letters, including the Revelation of John, they referred to themselves as neither disciples nor Christians. So, when asked what I am, I merely say that I am in Christ. Brother to all who are in Christ. Those who are in Christ today refer to themselves as Christian. But not all who call themselves Christian are in Christ.

I have only one Creed, the Bible, as I understand it through what I believe to be the teaching of Jesus Christ, the Living Lord and Saviour of all who are in Christ. This is truth to me. And this is not a stagnant truth as in a Tradition. Nor an interpreted truth. It is a growing understanding of truth. As I perceive personal understandings of truth that are the result of personal interpretation, I replace them with the truth as taught by Jesus Christ. This is an ongoing process as I am being transformed by the renewing of my mind. As I am being conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.

I have no desire for any followers other than those who follow me as I follow Christ. I have no desire to force what I believe on anyone else. But I do desire with Jesus and Paul the oneness of all who are in Christ.

More to follow.

FC
 
Saltwater

Doctrinal Relativism

You must understand my view of doctrinal relativism in the context of former post, with that background in mind.

And you must have an open mind to understand my view of doctrinal relativism. Those who are under the influence of Christian denominational thinking do not have an open mind, no matter how courteous they may be, no matter how much they try to understand views other than their own. Those who care enough to try to understand, they can only understand according to what they know, according to their own experience. This is reasonable. But it’s also a limitation. Denominational thinking limits any desired discussion to defending one’s own position against what amounts to a straw man. When Atheists refer to Christians as being narrow minded, they aren’t always referring to their system of belief.

Objective truth on matters supernatural is only found in the Bible. How we understand that truth may or may not be objective truth. A firm belief is insufficient to transform personally or Traditionally understood truth into objective truth.

Those who are in Christ are associated with Christianity. They have different doctrinal beliefs according to the denomination of Christianity they are associated with. Some have different doctrinal beliefs according to personal studies of the Bible that have led to personal interpretations, simply because they believe in the validity of the practice of Biblical interpretation.

My own understanding of Biblel doctrine agrees with the doctrinal standard of no known Christian denomination. Nor does it agree with such an understanding of any one individual who is in Christ or calls himself a Christian. I do not consider myself a believer in the doctrines of any one except Jesus Christ.

Paul clearly taught that we are to keep the unity of the Spirit, and grow in the knowledge of doctrine. Peter clearly taught we are to grow in grace and in the knowledge of Jesus Christ.

What I refer to as doctrinal relativism includes tolerance for the doctrinal beliefs of others while keeping the unity of the Spirit. It in no way nullifies anyone’s understanding of truth as it is in its current state of growth (or lack thereof).

But doctrinal relativism does exclude the various forms of closed communion that are based on keeping the doctrinal unity of distinctive denominations or the denominational thinking of an individual. Any practice of closed communion should only be reserved for obvious and open sinful behaviour that is disruptive to the community. And this includes the sin of divisional thinking and its behaviour.

What about the example of open homosexual Christians that are becoming so numerous in Christianity? Believe it or not they have interpretations for their own position that are often as reasonable as any interpretations that are against. But interpretation isn’t the issue. The issue is what the Bible actually says. And the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin in rather obvious terms.

I personally have no understanding of the plight of the homosexual, having always been strictly butter side up. But there are those who are in Christ who do understand. And I leave the matter of helping the homosexual to them. I think they are better able to discern the difference between getting close enough to help and being in danger of getting too close to a sinful situation.

My personal opinion concerning the influx of openly homosexual Christians into Christianity is that it is another piece of evidence of the human nature of Christianity. I have more non-Christian friends than Christian friends. And I’ve had non-Christian homosexual friends, who are a part of the Gay Pride Movement, tell me that the influx of Christian homosexuals into Christianity has its purpose, it’s included in the gay agenda. It is in reaction to the vociferousness of those who are Christian and openly against the gay agenda in secular society. So they just promote the gay agenda within Christianity itself. It’s a tactic of infiltration. Just as the New Atheists are a reaction toward the same Christians. And it is my opinion that these vociferous Christians are bringing persecution upon themselves for no good reason. They are suffering for their own noisiness. To be against open homosexuality in Christianity is different than being against homosexuality in secular society. Secular society is NOT Christian, nor is it intended to be. The only purpose of the one who is in Christ in relation to secular society is to preach the Gospel. Not to bash any member of that society. Most Atheists and homosexuals don’t mind an opinion in the market place of ideas in secular society. But when the opinion become more than opinion, that’s when they react with more than opinions of their own.

One could say that American society is unique in that it claims to demand the participation of each member of that society. But we have the example of Jesus and the Apostles who never became involved with the politics of the existing governments of the time. They continued to be foreigners in a foreign land, yet honest and upright citizens of the land in which they lived.

To say that Jesus was persecuted for what he believed to be true is not precisely the situation. Jesus was persecuted for disruption of a Tradition. To say that the Apostles were persecuted for what they believed is not quite true either. They were persecuted for being followers of a Jew who disrupted a Tradition. The Romans certainly, and most Jews at that time didn’t understand the teaching of Christ or the Apostles at all. That is what Peter was saying. If you suffer as a Christian or follower of a disrupter of Tradition, then don’t be concerned, but count it glorious. But if you suffer for a wrong doing, then count it miserable and a stain on the name of Christ.

FC
 
Hello Former Christian,

Thank you for the in depth & very personal reply which reveals the doctrine/beliefs that drive you.

There is a fair bit in there for me to ponder so I think I will take a few days to wander thru your comments.

If you don't mind I may then ask some further questions in order to clarify your beliefs & my (mis)understanding of them.

Some points that have caught my eye are: Bible interpretation & denominalisation issues and of course this comment:

"My own understanding of Bible doctrine agrees with the doctrinal standard of no known Christian denomination. Nor does it agree with such an understanding of any one individual who is in Christ or calls himself a Christian. I do not consider myself a believer in the doctrines of any one except Jesus Christ.

Paul clearly taught that we are to keep the unity of the Spirit, and grow in the knowledge of doctrine. Peter clearly taught we are to grow in grace and in the knowledge of Jesus Christ."

There is plenty I would like to see unpacked from the bold type phrase.

Now a bit about my doctrinal/beliefs foundation so you can have a clearer understanding of what drives my comments.

Former Christian, if you have read some of my posts it is obvious that I do not hesitate to let readers know that my feet are planted within the Arminian camp as I have found it to be the closest to the theology that I discover when I read & study my Bible.

I do this for several reasons: by their repeated comments & threads I see that many Christians (yes I do see them as Christian per having the same salvation gospel message etc.) who are planted within the Reformed/Calvinist camp do not really know the teachings of Arminianism especially with regards to the free will issue & total depravity (God's sovereigny issues) along with Christians being able to lose their salvation thru believing false teaching & living according to the flesh.

The urban myths that I constantly encounter about the above points annoys me. However my greatest concern with regards to Christians within the Calvinist/Reformed camp are those who live according to the flesh & believe that all their sins past, present & future are forgiven. Heb12:14 is totally ignored. I fear for such Christians who treat sin lightly in their lives & unfortunately over the last two decades I have encountered many within Christianity who live this way. I do not want to see any Christians I meet end up in the lake of fire due to them accpeting false teaching.

Any way, enough for now. Again, thank you for your two replies & I look forward to further discussion with you. :):study
 
Saltwater

“my feet are planted within the Arminian campâ€

Arminianism is more than one line of thought. For example, RCC, Wesleyanism, Freewill Baptist, Mennonite, Jehovah’s Witness. Which line are you?


“However my greatest concern with regards to Christians within the Calvinist/Reformed camp are those who live according to the flesh & believe that all their sins past, present & future are forgiven.â€

Not your usual Calvinist. If anything, they’re usually overly moralistic and expect others to be also. But then, as in every Christian community, there’s the good, the bad, and the ugly.

It all depends on whether you think you have the ability to discern who is and who isn’t what they’re suppose to be. Some Christians would look at my lifestyle and deny me salvation. Others would look at the same lifestyle and call me a Saint. We need to be careful of judging others too much. Taking into consideration that we don’t have the ability to read hearts. We might be able to discern what they do, but not what they are.


“Heb12:14 is totally ignored.â€

As you are an Arminian, I’m assuming you’re talking about the interpretation of losing one’s salvation. Read those verses in context. You’ll see that if they’re referring to salvation, they’re also referring to a one time loss. There’s no coming back no matter how many times 1 John 1:9 is evoked. There’s no more sacrifice for sin.

Humanity in Christ is as fallen as humanity out of Christ. Not much assurance to be had if there isn’t something to keep us better than we can. The one Calvinistic doctrine I agree with is eternal security. Just not for the same reasons as a Calvinist. I figure that if we have no eternal security, then there isn’t much sense in being a Christian. Eternity is a long time. No reason to believe we’re not going to fall at some point during that long eternity. Satan fell while perfect. Adam and Eve fell while perfect. What’s to keep us from doing the same thing eventually? Or are the Mormons right and we become little tin gods in heaven?

It all depends on whether one considers salvation to be in Christ or whether being in Christ is for some other purpose. And whether one believes being in Christ is our doing or God’s doing. Like being baptized into Christ by the Spirit. And whether the one keeping us is God or ourselves.

Personally, if those verses refer to loss of salvation, then I lost it long ago. I’m one of those you termed wanting to be saved, but not one of the chosen click. There is a chosen click in Calvinism and one in Arminianism. Only the names have been changed. Don’t know who they’re protecting?

There’s a lot of “Christian†words that I don’t believe accurately translates the Greek. One of those words is “holiness†understood as sinlessness. If the Greek word hagiasmos, meaning purity, is referring to sinless purity, there’s going to be a lot fewer in heaven than either the Arminians or the Calvinists think. Maybe none at all. I’ve yet to meet or hear about the Christian who’s pure from sin. I’ve met some who thought they were. I’ve met Christians who have a sense of their sin and fight against the sin within all the time.

Since I’m one who believes we aren’t Justified by our own faith or works, fighting against the sin within just seems like the right thing to do in relation to being conformed to the image of Christ. The outcome of the fight doesn’t affect our salvation because salvation is in Christ, not ourselves.

Nevertheless, this verse refers to “following afterâ€. That doesn’t imply that the end, goal, or ultimate expression of following after is ever reached in this lifetime. And I believe that “without which†is referring to the pursuing, including both peace and holiness, not just holiness alone.


“I do not want to see any Christians I meet end up in the lake of fire due to them accepting false teaching.â€

The desire is commendable. But then, you have to ask yourself, “false teaching according to whoâ€? If you say the Bible, then you have to ask yourself, “according to whose interpretationâ€? Since I’m not even a Christian, it won’t be mine, because as a non-Christian, my€œinterpretation†is, or should be, false teaching to Christians. And as a Christian yourself, you have to ask yourself, “why am I involving myself with the false teaching of this hereticâ€?

FC
 
Hello Former Christian,

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post. I have spent a much interrupted evening replying to a few of your comments which I hope you will find thought provoking.

“And as a Christian yourself, you have to ask yourself, “why am I involving myself with the false teaching of this heretic�
Maybe I could turn this around & ask as a self confessed heretic why are you bothering to post on this Christian forum? What is your motivation? Is it to seek the truth & to test your beliefs ? (no offence meant by this question). From your earlier posts it appears that you have at least at one stage in your life fulfilled Acts 20:21 along with 1Cor15:1-8 & were born again? But it sounds like something has happened?

“Which line are you?â€
It appears to me that classical Armininaism is the closest line (at the moment!!)

“Some Christians would look at my lifestyle and deny me salvation. Others would look at the same lifestyle and call me a Saint.â€
One group will be correct with regards to their assessment of your salvation. The true state of your salvation is knowable. Are the others you refer to also Christians?

“Taking into consideration that we don’t have the ability to read hearts. We might be able to discern what they do, but not what they are.â€
1Cor4:1-5 makes it pretty clear that we are not to try & discern the intentions of a person’s heart. But what we can do is draw a conclusion based on their behaviour -Gal5:19-21, 1John2:3-11, James 4:4 (list not exhaustive). From these verses we can discern what they are by what they do.

“As you are an Arminian, I’m assuming you’re talking about the interpretation of losing one’s salvation. Read those verses in context. You’ll see that if they’re referring to salvation, they’re also referring to a one time loss. There’s no coming back no matter how many times 1 John 1:9 is evoked. There’s no more sacrifice for sin.â€
There are three sets of verses that show a Christian who is lost can come back to being saved again – James5:19-21, Rom11:17-24 noting v20-23, Luke 15:11-32 noting v30, 18 &21, 24&32 & yes there are verses in Hebrews which state one can not come back.

"Humanity in Christ is as fallen as humanity out of Christ."
Not so per 2Cor5:17 linked with Rom6 especially v6 – 14 (list not exhaustive – have a look in just about any book of the NT). If your comment is true then what did Jesus death on the cross achieve that makes His death more beneficial for us than the Jewish animal sacrifices?

There’s a lot of “Christian†words that I don’t believe accurately translates the Greek. One of those words is “holiness†understood as sinlessness. If the Greek word hagiasmos, meaning purity, is referring to sinless purity, there’s going to be a lot fewer in heaven than either the Arminians or the Calvinists think. Maybe none at all.
1Pet1:13-16 tells Christians to be holy because God is holy. How about some other readers answer this one – what does it mean to be holy? Why do we need to be holy?

The desire is commendable. But then, you have to ask yourself, “false teaching according to who� If you say the Bible, then you have to ask yourself, “according to whose interpretation�
A few simple rules I follow:
1. The correct interpretation will follow the rules of grammar otherwise you can make the Bible say whatever you want (usually by ignoring the context)
2. Scripture interprets scripture
3. The presence of the Holy Spirit with me (guides me into all truth idea)

Over the years I have studied the Bible with JWs, Mormons, Bahais (attending their study groups) & New Agers. In every instance their use of scripture for their key doctrines has consistently violated points 1 & 2.

“I figure that if we have no eternal security, then there isn’t much sense in being a Christian. Eternity is a long time. No reason to believe we’re not going to fall at some point during that long eternity. Satan fell while perfect. Adam and Eve fell while perfect. What’s to keep us from doing the same thing eventually?â€
This is a very thought provoking comment. Run out of time tonight so will get back to this one after checking out a few verses tomorrow. (internet is capped for the rest of the month so replies will be very slow!1)

Hope you find my viewpoints intriguing at the very least!!
 
Saltwater

““And as a Christian yourself, you have to ask yourself, “why am I involving myself with the false teaching of this heretic�
Maybe I could turn this around & ask as a self confessed heretic why are you bothering to post on this Christian forum? What is your motivation? Is it to seek the truth & to test your beliefs ? (no offence meant by this question). From your earlier posts it appears that you have at least at one stage in your life fulfilled Acts 20:21 along with 1Cor15:1-8 & were born again? But it sounds like something has happened?â€

I lost faith in Christianity as being representative of the supernatural. It’s just a man-made religion as far as I’m concerned. Nothing more, nothing less. I can’t remember if I mentioned the fact that Christianity being denominational follows neither Jesus as Lord, nor Paul. The only Lord of Christianity, which seems to be obvious only to non-Christians, are the human denominational lords themselves.

The only tangible reason to believe in the Biblical God I have left is the Bible itself. If the Bible is the actual source of Christianity, rather than man, then the Bible is no more supernatural in its own source than the writings of Aristotle.

I’m not a self-confessed heretic. I’m a heretic in the eyes of Christians, in the eyes of Christianity. I’m not a heretic to myself. As one who still refers to himself as a Christian, you are still an adherent of Christianity. So to you I’m a heretic. It was with that understanding that I asked the question.

Why am I here? Mainly to see if what I have left is worth preserving. Most regard Christianity and the Bible as a single unit. Reject one and one rejects the other automatically. When I realized the human nature of Christianity, for some reason I didn’t also see the Bible in the same light. So I still have faith in the Bible as having a supernatural source.

And it’s interesting to see the reactions to what I believe. A couple of those reactions have even managed to change what I believe. Not toward Christianity, but further away from it. But not, as yet, further away from the Bible.

I bring up my understanding of doctrinal relativism to see if there are any Christians who believe in the Bible more than their own interpretations of the Bible, more than in the doctrines of the Christian denomination with which they are associated. For me, there is something that transcends doctrinal unity as it is perceived in Christianity. My idea of doctrinal relativism is an attempt to explain the transcendental.

As far as 1 Cor 15:1-8, I still believe it is true. Acts 20:21 deserves it’s own post because it goes to how I understand salvation.


“It appears to me that classical Armininaism is the closest line (at the moment!!)â€

A follower of the Protestant Jacob Arminius. Or so classical Arminianism is described on Wikipedia. I would have thought that the RCC view would be the classical Arminian perspective historically speaking. But since it predates Arminius, perhaps it’s view is called something else.

In regard to my own view in comparison:

Total Depravity... Humanity not totally deprived. Adam was never nor became totally depraved.

Atonement universal...Atonement universal, but conditionally effectual through being in Christ.

Grace is resistible...Grace is resistible through the sovereignty of God.

Election is conditional... Only Jesus is elect, those who are in Christ are elect in him, initially conditional by faith in God (faith into Christ) and Baptism into Christ by the Spirit. No one is elect to death. Death is the consequence of Adam’s sin.

Eternal security is conditional...Being in Christ is conditional as said above. Once in Christ, eternal security is not conditional on anything other than the righteousness of Christ. Being conformed to the image of Christ is conditional, on walking by the Spirit.


““Some Christians would look at my lifestyle and deny me salvation. Others would look at the same lifestyle and call me a Saint.â€
One group will be correct with regards to their assessment of your salvation. The true state of your salvation is knowable. Are the others you refer to also Christians?â€

Both groups call themselves Christian. Which group would you side with?


1Cor4:1-5 makes it pretty clear that we are not to try & discern the intentions of a person’s heart. But what we can do is draw a conclusion based on their behaviour -Gal5:19-21, 1John2:3-11, James 4:4 (list not exhaustive). From these verses we can discern what they are by what they do.â€

1Cor 3 makes it clear we can’t discern a persons status by their behaviour. Sometimes the ones who are in Christ walk like men. Paul only derides the Corinthians for being in the ekklesia and walking like men. He doesn’t refer to them as non-believers in the whole letter. But you are an Arminian. So from that view if they walk like men, it’s because their state is unsaved men.

1 Cor 4:1-5 refers to Paul and the apostles as special servants of Christ, having nothing to do with judgment of the state of others. Gal 5:19-21, Jas 4:4, 1 John 2:3-11 refers to how we are to discern our own state, not the state of others.

When I was asked to leave by the first Church I was associated with, it was for doctrinal differences. In some Churches, I would be asked to leave for behavioral differences, as well as doctrinal differences. Doesn’t matter to me since the outcome is the same, the judgment being from a human source.


“There are three sets of verses that show a Christian who is lost can come back to being saved again – James5:19-21, Rom11:17-24 noting v20-23, Luke 15:11-32 noting v30, 18 &21, 24&32 & yes there are verses in Hebrews which state one can not come back.â€

Perhaps there’s something wrong with the interpretation in view of the discrepancy. I suggest perhaps interpreting the Hebrews accounts as referring to salvation is the faulty aspect.


“"Humanity in Christ is as fallen as humanity out of Christ."
Not so per 2Cor5:17 linked with Rom6 especially v6 – 14 (list not exhaustive – have a look in just about any book of the NT). If your comment is true then what did Jesus death on the cross achieve that makes His death more beneficial for us than the Jewish animal sacrifices?â€

2 Cor 5:17 only says that the ones who are in Christ are part of a new creation. It doesn’t say they no longer have the sin nature within. Nor does Rom 6 in context with Rom 7. Nor does 1 John 3 in context of 1 John 1.

The benefit in Christ is in the once for all sacrifice, not possible through animal sacrifices. The animal sacrifices saved no one. But what the tabernacle ritual looked forward to, saved all the Jews who followed the ritual, their faith being counted unto them as righteousness. Like Abraham, they believed God and their faith was accredited to them as righteousness,


“1Pet1:13-16 tells Christians to be holy because God is holy. How about some other readers answer this one – what does it mean to be holy? Why do we need to be holy?â€

Needs a new thread. Consider that in Christianity, holiness and sanctification is denominationally, and thus diversely, understood.


“A few simple rules I follow:
1. The correct interpretation will follow the rules of grammar otherwise you can make the Bible say whatever you want (usually by ignoring the context)
2. Scripture interprets scripture
3. The presence of the Holy Spirit with me (guides me into all truth idea)â€

Like I said, who’s interpretation will you follow? The one you agree with of course. Be aware that I oppose the practice of Biblical interpretation, in favor of letting Jesus instruct us through the Spirit. I use non-Biblical resources only according to his leading. Such as in relation to the NT Greek. Something considered a form of interpretation by interpreters. There are many rationalizations for the practice of Biblical interpretation. Some appearing quite reasonable, but rationalizations nevertheless.


“Over the years I have studied the Bible with JWs, Mormons, Bahais (attending their study groups) & New Agers. In every instance their use of scripture for their key doctrines has consistently violated points 1 & 2.â€

Of course, from their view, that’s your opinion.


“Hope you find my viewpoints intriguing at the very least!!â€

More typically Christian than intriguing. Strange how Christians are able to achieve a level of unity in their typical Christian responses and reactions, but still practice closed communion against one another regarding their denominational beliefs. But that’s what I expect from Christians.

I could at this point yell, “Repent. You’re following a false religionâ€. LOL But that would be against my own understanding of metanoia/repent and my own belief in doctrinal relativity.


“Over the years I have studied the Bible with....Bahais (attending their study groups) & New Agers.â€

This however is intriguing. That you would bother to study Baha'ism, which is an offshoot of Islam. And with New Agers, in which the philosophy is so diverse individually as to be hard put to know for sure what is being studied. Neither of which refers to itself as Christian in any way. In my opinion, the early Councils of Christianity were the first attempt at a one world religion, the Baha’is changed the idea a little in a new attempt, and the New Agers are the most recent attempt. All natural attempts. But in order to be possible to deceive the elect if that were possible, it would have to have a supernatural element.


“(internet is capped for the rest of the month so replies will be very slow!1)â€

Why not just take a break for a few days? This thread doesn’t appear to be going anywhere, so it’s not like we have to hurry with our answers so as not to be left behind.

One more to follow.

FC
 
Saltwater

Be aware that I don’t believe in the Protestant idea of Sola Fides. James clearly says that faith and the works that express that faith are inseparable. Thus faith alone is an impossibility, no matter what faith is in relation to. Faith unexpressed doesn’t exist.


Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
(KJV)

There’s a little difference in this verse between the Byzantine and Alexandrian compilations, but not enough to change the meaning.

According to the Christian interpretation, I haven’t fulfilled this verse and have thus never been saved. But I understand this verse differently than Christianity.

First, is my understanding of the Greek word mentanoia that is translated as repentance. The Greek word means nothing more than to agree with. The English word repentance means to “feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one's wrongdoing or sin†(Oxford Dictionary). The English word doesn’t convey the meaning of the Greek word. The Christian interpretation of the Greek word is that it refers to a turning to God and turning away from one’s sin. Which doesn’t convey the meaning of either the Greek word or the English word used to translate it.

I am one who still sins. I am very conscious of when I do. And I ask forgiveness of the God whom I have sinned against. But one who still sins, no matter how often, by no stretch of the imagination has turned away from sin. Thus I haven’t fulfilled that part of the interpretation. But I do agree with God concerning that sin. And that’s all that the Greek word means.

Second, is my disagreement with the way Greek prepositions are translated in English Bibles.

One Greek preposition is in this verse twice, but translated by two English words that have two entirely different meanings. In both cases, the phrase is in the Accusative, so that has no bearingon the differences in translation. And the two English words used to translate the preposition isn’t even the meaning of the Greek word. It is interpretive translation. The practice of interpretation amounts to an opinion. No way to translate or understand the Bible. That is, if it’s a Divine book.

There are two Greek prepositions that mean two different things. Eis means into. En means in. One would think by the translation that at least the Greek preposition used is en, so that at least one translation is accurate. But that’s not the case. The Greek preposition used is eis.

Third, Eis doesn’t mean toward. Pros means toward. When one goes eis Jerusalem, one goes into the city of Jerusalem, not toward it. The first Greek phrase means literally, “ to agree with into Godâ€. Christians see no sense in the phrase, having no experience of it. They have to interpret the meaning to accommodate their own experience. The only interpretation that makes sense to them changes both the meaning of the Greek word metanoia into repentance and the Greek preposition into toward. And Christianity even changes the meaning of the English word repentance into turn to God from sin.

When I was converted, I knew nothing of the diversity in Christian philosophy. I only learned something of one of those philosophies after I became associated with a Calvinistic Baptist Church. So when I was converted I simply believed what I knew to be true from the Bible as made real to me from within. I agreed with God concerning my state as one who needed saving. I agreed with God that he sent his Son to save me from my state. So I turned to God, and in doing so, I agreed with that part of the Christian interpretation, even though it isn’t part of the meaning of the word metanoia. But I didn’t turn away from sin. As I read the Bible, I only gradually became aware of sin, what it is, and that I’m committing it. And gradually I have been turning away from sin ever since. Not in the total sense of the Christian interpretation of metanoia. And not always successfully according to the total sense of the Christian interpretation of that word. So my hope is in God and in his Son as my Saviour. Not in my turning from sin, my ability to turn from sin even with the grace of God, or the sinless perfection (one of the many interpretations of holiness without which I won’t see the Lord) I won’t attain in my lifetime.

Fourth, Eis doesn’t mean in. The Greek preposition en means in. This has to do with the second phrase that literally means, “faith into our Lord Jesus Christâ€. Again, apart from the experience, or an understanding of the experience if they’ve had it, meaningless to Christians.

Paul, on many occasions, refers to being in Christ. How does one become in Christ? To understand that we first go back to something Jesus said, a commonly known verse,

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(KJV)

The translation “believes IN him†is followed by every English translator. Yet the Greek preposition used here is eis, not en. The ones gaining eternal life are the ones who believe INTO the Son.

Romans 6:
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection
(KJV)

These three verses are actually translated literally wherever the Greek prepositions eis and en are found. But note what it says about baptism. We are baptized INTO Christ. A literal translation of eis. Why isn’t it baptized in Christ?

How do we believe into the Son? Paul says in Romans that Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness. That is the same as believing into the Son. When we believe God as to what he says about his Son, we are believing into the Son.

One of the works of our human faith in God is water baptism. When we are water baptized, we are simultaneously baptized into Christ, into the Body of Christ, by the Spirit. Is baptism necessary to salvation? Absolutely. In both its aspects, water and Spirit. Doesn’t do any good to bring a scenario wherein water baptism is not possible. Like the thief on the cross. God knows. Jesus is clear in Mark 16:16.


Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
(KJV)

Galatians 2:16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
(NIV)

There are three phrases in this verse referring to faith. In the NIV they are all translated as “faith IN Christâ€

The first and third phrases are Genitive phrases, the meaning of which are determined by the tense of the verb. Grammarians claim that a Genitive phrase can be translated as a subjective Genitive (OF) or as an objective Genitive (IN). That gives the Bible translators an interpretive choice. Since the common idea in Christianity is that one is justified by their own faith in Christ, so also the modern translations.

But there is a corollary to their definition of a Genitive. When a person is involved, it refers to possession. Hence, I believe the KJV gets it right in this verse. Faith OF Christ. We’re NOT made righteous by our faith IN Christ. We are put into the proper position by our faith in God to be made righteous. That position is IN Christ. We are then made righteous by the faith of another. We believe and we are baptized INTO Christ. Thus we are IN Christ. By virtue of being IN Christ we are made righteous by the faith OF Christ, and the works of Christ that express that faith.

The second phrase has the Greek preposition eis, not en. Thus the meaning is “we have believed into Christ in order thatâ€. In order that we might be made righteous by the faith of Christ.

I understand salvation to be conditional only initially as we choose whether or not to believe God. Whether or not to receive the free gift of God in Christ. Once in Christ, there is no more choice. It is Christ’s faith that has already determined our righteousness in the eyes of God. Only our behaviour is then determined by a choice. Whether to walk by the Spirit or by the flesh. Gal 5:25 is clear that walking by the flesh doesn’t change the fact that we live by the Spirit.

If our salvation is up for grabs by our own behaviour after we’re in Christ, then I would have to believe that the RCC idea makes more sense. That we aren’t actually in Christ nor receive eternal life until after death. Both being dependent on our works that express our faith in God and in Christ. If our faith changes, the we never see the Lord. Whatever our works, it is an expression of our faith. If we just do works to escape a perceived hell, that is the works that expresses a faith in the existence of hell. Is it sufficient to save? Now that’s the question, isn’t it? Perhaps Jude 23 is the answer.

FC
 
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