This seeming contradiction has got me down!

[Soma-Sight]

Luke 11:23 (New International Version)

23"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me, scatters.



Matthew 12:30 (New International Version)

30"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.



Mark 9:40 (New International Version)

40for whoever is not against us is for us.


Luke 9:50 (New International Version)

50"Do not stop him," Jesus said, "for whoever is not against you is for you."


What do you guys make of this?

 

[Gary]

What don't you understand about these verses Soma?

Please explain.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Soma has found Quath's favorite atheist site.... http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/bibl ... roragainst ....now he takes the so-called contradictions out one at a time and posts them without references. Soma, you are at university. Surely you understand the concept of plagiarism!)

:-? :-?

 

[Soma-Sight]

Gary,

All 4 of these verses are in reference to an "un - orthodox" person doing "good works" of casting out demons.

Jesus gives different answers in each case that contradict the other.

In two of the cases he claims those that are not in the fold and doing these works are against Him.

In the other two cases He claims that those that are not in the fold but doing the good works are still for Him (Ignorantly).

 

[Gary]

Gary,
All 4 of these verses are in reference to an "un - orthodox" person doing "good works" of casting out demons.
Jesus gives different answers in each case that contradict the other.
In two of the cases he claims those that are not in the fold and doing these works are against Him.
In the other two cases He claims that those that are not in the fold but doing the good works are still for Him (Ignorantly).

...and what is the CONTEXT of each verse? Who is being addressed?

:-? :-?

 

[PDoug]

Gary,

All 4 of these verses are in reference to an "un - orthodox" person doing "good works" of casting out demons.

Jesus gives different answers in each case that contradict the other.

In two of the cases he claims those that are not in the fold and doing these works are against Him.

In the other two cases He claims that those that are not in the fold but doing the good works are still for Him (Ignorantly).

The men who were casting out demons (by faith) did not belong to Christ's group of immediate followers. This however did not mean the men did not belong to Christ in the most important way: which is to do so by having faith. Everyone who has faith belongs to Christ. As far as Christ is concerned: you either have faith and are with Him, or you don't have faith and are against Him. Those are ultimately the only two options a person has.

 

[cj]

Mark  9 : 40. "For he who is not against us is for us."

This word does not contradict that in Matt. 12:30. Both issued from the Slave-Savior's mouth and can be considered maxims. The maxim here speaks of outward conformity in practice and is in regard to people who are not against Him (Mark 9:39); that in Matthew speaks of the inward unity of purpose and is in regard to people who are against Him (Matt. 12:24). To maintain the inward unity, we need to practice the word in Matthew, and as to the outward conformity, we should practice the word here, tolerating believers who differ from us. (Noted from the Recovery Version bible)

In love,
cj

 

[Quath]

To me, it looks like Jesus is justifying a position by applying a principle. The principle is either "if you are not with us, you are against us." The opposite principle is "if you are not with us, you are still with us."

There may be different audiences, but he justifies his philosophy with opposite principles.

It is like saying "Absence makes the heart grow fonder" and then follow it up with "out of sight, out of mind." You can believe in both principles, but you have to add constraints.

If someone is trying to teach, it is better to fully spell out a principle instead of shrinking it to sound wittier. For example, Jesus should have said something closer to "He who is not with us in conformity..." and "He who is not with us in outward practice..." That gives clear principles that do not contradict each other.

Quath

 

[Cure of Ars]

To me, it looks like Jesus is justifying a position by applying a principle. The principle is either "if you are not with us, you are against us." The opposite principle is "if you are not with us, you are still with us."

There may be different audiences, but he justifies his philosophy with opposite principles.

It is like saying "Absence makes the heart grow fonder" and then follow it up with "out of sight, out of mind." You can believe in both principles, but you have to add constraints.

You don't have to add constraints when it is the context that makes the principle true. Depending on the situation both statements are true.

If someone is trying to teach, it is better to fully spell out a principle instead of shrinking it to sound wittier. For example, Jesus should have said something closer to "He who is not with us in conformity..." and "He who is not with us in outward practice..." That gives clear principles that do not contradict each other.

I don't know, sometimes it is better to not be clear so that people have to put more thought into it and see things from a deeper level or different angle. Scripture is polyvalent and can have more than one meaning. If Jesus taught like you would have him it would have limited the implications too much. There is a difference between knowledge and wisdom. What you would have Jesus do would be better for knowledge but for wisdom Jesus' way is better.

 

[Gary]

Quath (the abortion defender) telling Jesus what and how he should have taught!

That HAS to be the height of atheist arrogance....

:o :o

 

[Relic]

Thank you Gary.

I appreciate it when errors are pointed out. I know there are so many people that visit forums who are not well versed and if they come across postings that are in error without finding correction to those errors, then they sadly, are likely to be mislead.

I know that if I make errors in any of my postings , I would not want them to go by without being challenged and have corrections to them, and I most definately would not want to mislead anyone!.

I appreciate your keen observance.

Thanks so much Gary for all you contribute to this forum!

.

 

[Quath]

You don't have to add constraints when it is the context that makes the principle true. Depending on the situation both statements are true.

I think that when you state a philosophy, you have to be very careful and clear. Otherwise, people will try to apply this philosophy elsewhere.

I don't know, sometimes it is better to not be clear so that people have to put more thought into it and see things from a deeper level or different angle. Scripture is polyvalent and can have more than one meaning. If Jesus taught like you would have him it would have limited the implications too much. There is a difference between knowledge and wisdom. What you would have Jesus do would be better for knowledge but for wisdom Jesus' way is better.

I guess I see future problems where people will try to apply the principles of Jesus. For example, we go fight in Iraq. Are the countries that do not join us, against us or for us or does this principle of Jesus not apply? Some people would make similar arguments as in this thread and I am sure they would come up with different beliefs about what Jesus would have said about this. This leads to confusion and maybe the creation of yet another denomination.

So I think that a lot could be gained from clarity. As it is I think every political and social issue can be supported and rejected by quoting Bible verses in which people attach meanings. Clarity would have helped avoid that.

Quath (the abortion defender) telling Jesus what and how he should have taught!

That HAS to be the height of atheist arrogance....

When the shackles of belief fall away, the mind is not limited to to constrained thought.

Quath

 

[Cure of Ars]

I don’t think I explained myself very well and I want to make sure that you understand what I am staying. First let me say that reality is beyond language, mathematics and science. Let me give you a quote that expresses this:

The real trouble with this world of ours is that it is nearly reasonable, but not quite. Life is not an illogicality; yet it is a trap for logicians. It looks just a little more mathematical and regular than it is; its exactitude is obvious, but its inexactitude is hidden; its wildness lies in wait. G. K. Chesterton

The truths that Jesus expresses are not always able to be expressed with clear computer manual type rules. It goes back to what we were talking about with the contradictions that humans are able to work out but which does not fit any set rules that you can set in place. You will get closer to the truth if you use language that is non-direct. Kierkegaard, father of existentialism, coined the term indirect communication, which he modeled after Jesus and Socrates. It’s like using poetry (or other means) in an indirect way to communicate what you cannot say in a direct way.

I think that when you state a philosophy, you have to be very careful and clear. Otherwise, people will try to apply this philosophy elsewhere.

This is possible but what is the alternative? Anything that you say in regards to philosophy can be used for evil. Just like anything that is good can be used for evil.

I guess I see future problems where people will try to apply the principles of Jesus. For example, we go fight in Iraq. Are the countries that do not join us, against us or for us or does this principle of Jesus not apply? Some people would make similar arguments as in this thread and I am sure they would come up with different beliefs about what Jesus would have said about this. This leads to confusion and maybe the creation of yet another denomination.

I’m Catholic and my understanding of Scriptures is connected to how the saints in the past understood the passage. I also have an authority set in place by Christ that serves as the final court of appeals in a disagreement. Scripture to me is not a matter of personal interpretation.

So I think that a lot could be gained from clarity. As it is I think every political and social issue can be supported and rejected by quoting Bible verses in which people attach meanings. Clarity would have helped avoid that.

Even Satan was able to twist scripture to his own purposes and clarity is not possible because reality cannot be reduced to something that is totally clear.

 

[Quath]

I think that is a consistent way of seeing it, Curs of Ars.

Why do you think the saints have a better time understanding the Bible than others? Aren't saints picked by a human who could have just picked the people that agreed with what he wanted to believe?

Quath

 

[Cure of Ars]

Why do you think the saints have a better time understanding the Bible than others?

My answer is supernatural so I don’t know if you will be able to accept it. The word of God at its core in not primarily written but resides in the heart. Saints are those whos lives give witness to what it means to follow the gospel, which is Christ. If you want to understand the principles of Jesus in practice look to the saints who are moved by the Holy Spirit. Take St. Francis of Assisi for example. Christ’s love shown through his life. St. Francis one said, “preach the gospel at all times, if necessary use wordsâ€Â. This to me is the best way to understand the Bible. Christ’s love is the most believable thing in this world and you can see it alive in the lives of the saints. And this is why I turn to them to understand Scripture.

When we read scripture we are really reading two different things. From what I see you are coming at it from it’s difficulties and supposed contradictions and this becomes central. For me that is on the periphery and it misses the point of the text. I focus on how scripture points to Christ and how this applies to my life and what God is calling me to do.

Aren't saints picked by a human who could have just picked the people that agreed with what he wanted to believe?

Saints do not conform to popular opinion. They conform to Christ. In many if not most cases saints made enemies on both sides of the isle. They made people uneasy because they took Christ’s words seriously instead of just going through the motions. Most people want to play Christian soldier (I am guilty of this) and they do not like to be exposed when someone really takes Jesus at his word. Picking up one’s cross and follwing Jesus is all fine and dandy just as long as it is on our terms and the cross is made of styrofoam. Saints do not take this out. They love like Christ loves.

 

[Gary]

Aren't saints picked by a human who could have just picked the people that agreed with what he wanted to believe?

Saints do not conform to popular opinion. They conform to Christ. In many if not most cases saints made enemies on both sides of the isle. They made people uneasy because they took Christ’s words seriously instead of just going through the motions. Most people want to play Christian soldier (I am guilty of this) and they do not like to be exposed when someone really takes Jesus at his word. Picking up one’s cross and follwing Jesus is all fine and dandy just as long as it is on our terms and the cross is made of styrofoam. Saints do not take this out. They love like Christ loves.

Part-true words from "Cure of Ars", but not the whole story. The Roman Catholic Church confuses the issue. They "canonize" saints... after their deaths

However, Scripture is clear. ALL Bible-believing, Spirit filled, born-again (saved) Christians are saints!

Read God's Word:

• Acts 9:13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem.
  Acts 9:32 And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all quarters, he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda.
  Acts 9:41 And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive.
  Acts 26:10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
  Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
  Romans 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
  Romans 12:13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
  Romans 15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
  Romans 15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
  Romans 15:31 That I may be delivered from them that do not believe in Judaea; and that my service which I have for Jerusalem may be accepted of the saints.
  Romans 16:2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
  Romans 16:15 Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.
  1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours.
  1 Corinthians 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
  1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
  1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
  1 Corinthians 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
  1 Corinthians 16:15 I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints).
  2 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia.
  2 Corinthians 8:4 Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints.
  2 Corinthians 9:1 For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you.
  2 Corinthians 9:12 For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God.
  2 Corinthians 13:13 All the saints salute you.
  Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus.
  Ephesians 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints.
  Ephesians 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints.
  Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God.
  Ephesians 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ.
  Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.
  Ephesians 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints.
  Ephesians 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints.
  Philippians 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons.
  Philippians 4:22 All the saints salute you, chiefly they that are of Caesar's household.
  Colossians 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
  Colossians 1:4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints.
  Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light.
  1 Timothy 5:10 Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.
  Philemon 1:5 Hearing of thy love and faith, which thou hast toward the Lord Jesus, and toward all saints.
  Philemon 1:7 For we have great joy and consolation in thy love, because the bowels of the saints are refreshed by thee, brother.
  Hebrews 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
  Hebrews 13:24 Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.
  Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

All these saints lived Christian lives, amongst people, doing God's work, ......unlike many of the Roman Catholic Church's "saints" who were monks and recluses, hidden away in monasteries.

:o

Christians need not wait many years after death to receive this title. Nor do they need an intensive campaign to persuade a college of Cardinals about their sanctity. In the Bible, God calls them "saints" despite their sins and failures. Miracles they cannot do, yet they recognize each other as saints because of such unimpressive things as sincere faith in Christ and their love for the brethren.

Canonization is based on Rome's erroneous doctrine that a person is justified on account of personal righteousness. According to the (Roman Catholic) Catechism, canonization is the solemn proclamation "that they practiced heroic virtue and lived in fidelity to God's grace." It is no surprise that Catholics do not dare claim this title since they believe that sainthood is achieved by personal effort.

In the New Testament (and in Evangelical churches today), ordinary Christians are called saints for a very different reason. You will not find us boasting of our heroic virtues and fidelity. Rather, we keep confessing our sins to God daily. Still, all believers are saints here and now. We are saints because of Another. All believers are "sanctified - i.e. made saints - through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10). All Christians are saints because of what Christ did for us. Praise His name!

Source: http://www.justforcatholics.org/a50.htm

 

[Cure of Ars]

However, Scripture is clear. ALL Bible-believing, Spirit filled, born-again (saved) Christians are saints!

The Catholic Church does not disagree that all Christian are saints in that they are set apart. But words can have more than one meaning in different contexts. So it is true to say that you are a saint, but isn’t it also true that you are on the process of sanctification? Here are Bible verses that talk about Christians on the journey of sanctification or holiness.

1Cr 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, [even] your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

1Th 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/ ... -7107.html




Now it is true that we are saints, set apart, but I am guessing you have not grabbed a hold totally to holiness yet. We still have attachments to sin and are not perfect like God the father is perfect. Some during there lives obtain this holiness and like Paul are able to say, “I have been crucified with Christ; yet I live, no longer I, but Christ lives in me..†(Gal 2:20) and in this context the term saint is appropriate to mean they who have obtained the goal of holiness during their life on earth.

 

[Simonline]

Quath (the abortion defender) telling Jesus what and how he should have taught!

That HAS to be the height of atheist arrogance....

:o :o

There is no such thing as an atheist since to be an atheist requires infinite knowledge as a prerequisite. The only one who has such knowledge (in order to know absolutely that God does not exist) is God himself. Therefore all professing atheists are fools (totally bereft of wisdom) as the Scriptures declare (Ps.14:1)

Simonline.

 

[Orthodoxy]

Aren't saints picked by a human who could have just picked the people that agreed with what he wanted to believe?

Saints do not conform to popular opinion. They conform to Christ. In many if not most cases saints made enemies on both sides of the isle. They made people uneasy because they took Christ’s words seriously instead of just going through the motions. Most people want to play Christian soldier (I am guilty of this) and they do not like to be exposed when someone really takes Jesus at his word. Picking up one’s cross and follwing Jesus is all fine and dandy just as long as it is on our terms and the cross is made of styrofoam. Saints do not take this out. They love like Christ loves.

Part-true words from "Cure of Ars", but not the whole story. The Roman Catholic Church confuses the issue. They "canonize" saints... after their deaths

However, Scripture is clear. ALL Bible-believing, Spirit filled, born-again (saved) Christians are saints!

Read God's Word:

• Acts 9:13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem.
  Acts 9:32 And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all quarters, he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda.
  Acts 9:41 And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive.
  Acts 26:10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
  Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
  Romans 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
  Romans 12:13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
  Romans 15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
  Romans 15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
  Romans 15:31 That I may be delivered from them that do not believe in Judaea; and that my service which I have for Jerusalem may be accepted of the saints.
  Romans 16:2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
  Romans 16:15 Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.
  1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours.
  1 Corinthians 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
  1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
  1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
  1 Corinthians 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
  1 Corinthians 16:15 I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints).
  2 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia.
  2 Corinthians 8:4 Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints.
  2 Corinthians 9:1 For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you.
  2 Corinthians 9:12 For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God.
  2 Corinthians 13:13 All the saints salute you.
  Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus.
  Ephesians 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints.
  Ephesians 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints.
  Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God.
  Ephesians 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ.
  Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.
  Ephesians 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints.
  Ephesians 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints.
  Philippians 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons.
  Philippians 4:22 All the saints salute you, chiefly they that are of Caesar's household.
  Colossians 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
  Colossians 1:4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints.
  Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light.
  1 Timothy 5:10 Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.
  Philemon 1:5 Hearing of thy love and faith, which thou hast toward the Lord Jesus, and toward all saints.
  Philemon 1:7 For we have great joy and consolation in thy love, because the bowels of the saints are refreshed by thee, brother.
  Hebrews 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
  Hebrews 13:24 Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.
  Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

All these saints lived Christian lives, amongst people, doing God's work, ......unlike many of the Roman Catholic Church's "saints" who were monks and recluses, hidden away in monasteries.

:o

http://www.justforcatholics.org/a50.htm[/url]

[/quote:4043f]

A true saint would never admit he was a saint. A true saint flees the exaltation and honor of men.

Orthodoxy

 

[Gary]

A true saint would never admit he was a saint. A true saint flees the exaltation and honor of men.

I understand that you do not consider yourself a saint in the Orthodox and Roman Catholic tradition. However, Scripture proves you wrong. We are saints because of Jesus.... not because of men.

Were Luke and Paul and Jude and the author of Hebrews all incorrect in calling normal believers "saints"?

Acts 9:13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem.
Acts 9:32 And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all quarters, he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda.
Acts 9:41 And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive.
Acts 26:10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Romans 12:13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
Romans 15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
Romans 15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
Romans 15:31 That I may be delivered from them that do not believe in Judaea; and that my service which I have for Jerusalem may be accepted of the saints.
Romans 16:2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
Romans 16:15 Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.
1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours.
1 Corinthians 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
1 Corinthians 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
1 Corinthians 16:15 I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints).
2 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia.
2 Corinthians 8:4 Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints.
2 Corinthians 9:1 For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you.
2 Corinthians 9:12 For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God.
2 Corinthians 13:13 All the saints salute you.
Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints.
Ephesians 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints.
Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God.
Ephesians 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ.
Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.
Ephesians 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints.
Ephesians 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints.
Philippians 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons.
Philippians 4:22 All the saints salute you, chiefly they that are of Caesar's household.
Colossians 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Colossians 1:4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints.
Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light.
1 Timothy 5:10 Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.
Philemon 1:5 Hearing of thy love and faith, which thou hast toward the Lord Jesus, and toward all saints.
Philemon 1:7 For we have great joy and consolation in thy love, because the bowels of the saints are refreshed by thee, brother.
Hebrews 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
Hebrews 13:24 Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.
Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

 

[Quath]

There is no such thing as an atheist since to be an atheist requires infinite knowledge as a prerequisite. The only one who has such knowledge (in order to know absolutely that God does not exist) is God himself. Therefore all professing atheists are fools (totally bereft of wisdom) as the Scriptures declare (Ps.14:1)

An atheist has no belief in the existance of God. The idea is that the natural state is disbelief. After all, babies are atheists since they have no belief in God. They must be told/indoctrinated to have belief. An atheist just rejects this without sufficient evidence.

By your definition, you could not say you disbelieve in Allah, Zeus, Thor, or Carebears because you are not all knowing. Yet this would be a ridiculous statement to make.

Quath