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To clarify a quote

J

james1964

Guest
You asked me in a thread to clarify the quote but then locked the topic so I could not respond. Perhaps you forgot that you asked me to answer your post before locking the topic? If so, here is my reply.

Well, if I may, I will show you your error, but first, as you mention below:

Who cares about the site that that info came from
Click to expand...

I have to agree with you. Who cares what site it comes from? If I point you to a site with "contexual" and accurate information or I point you to a site with inaccurate, misleading information? My question in this case would be, why is the site pointing to "accurate" information supressed and considered to be an attempt to "promote" or "convert" to Islam but the site with inaccurate and biased information considered fair game? Please explain if you might ne so kind.

How is that information false and inaccurate. Instead of just claiming that it is and that we only vilify Islam, perhaps you can correct us. deal with the quote itself.
Click to expand...

Very well then. First, let me clarify the difference between the "Qur'an" , a "Hadith" and a "Fatwah".

A Fatwa is nothing more than an "opinion" of a man. A Hadith is nothing more than a "report" from "man" about the Prophet as he seen and/or recalls it.
Both a Fatwah and a Hadith are not immune from the subjectivity, mistakes and fallability of man.

The Qu'ran according to Muslims, however is the word of God - infallable. Many Muslims will hold to the Qu'ran when seeking the truth. If a Hadith does not follow with the Qur'an, it must be rejected. The same, in my opinion would hold true of a Fatwah. You will also find some Fatwahs (again, opinions of man) by different scholars in direct conflict with one another.

Again, the Qur'an is considered by Muslims to be the "word of God". A "Hadith" is the sayings and many of these opinions originate from teachings found in the books of Hadiths and sunna. Hadiths and sunna books are a collection of stories about prophet Muhammed that often have all kinds of cruel inhumane and corrupted opinions that contradict the Qur'an (much as you will find many cruel inhumane verses in the Bible in direct conflict with the teachings of Jesus Christ) Many contradict itself, and contradict as well any common sense. Most of the corruption we see in the "Muslim" world today comes from these man made books that were collected over 200 years after the death of Prophet Muhammed. Prophet Muhammed himself never advocated any books but the Quran and even instructed his followers NOT to write or collect such books.

Fighting in the cause of God is one of the most misunderstood issues in Islam (Submission), even by those who consider themselves Muslims. Many of the so called "Muslim" scholars have confused the issue by their personal opinion that has NO support in the Qur'an. Prophet Muhammed himself NEVER waged any war except for self defense and never lived except by the peaceful words of God in the Qur'an.

God condemns aggression in the Quran (2:190-191). This doesn’t mean that Muslims should not defend themselves when attacked. And this is the only time you will find believers fight others, when they themselves are being attacked, aggressed upon. Believers will never initiate war, or an aggression. The Quran is a fully detailed book, which provides guidance on how to deal with all kinds of situations encountered in this life. One of those situations are war. Thus God gives very exact guidelines on how to behave in those situations. A commonly quoted verse is 9:5. It is a verse that deals with a situation of war. The believers have been attacked, and their enemy has broken a peaceful truce, and they are told how to defend themselves.

[9:5]Once the Sacred Months are past, (and they refuse to make peace) you may kill the idol worshipers when you encounter them, punish them, and resist every move they make. If they repent and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), you shall let them go. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

Whenever possible we should resort to peace. Throughout the Quran, God teaches that whenever possible we should resort to peace.

Resource: Fatimah T. Sakr

How does the Bible relate to war? I can certainly quote much scripture regarding to matters of dealing with the enemy found in the Bible. Taken out of context, it can be made to sound pretty horrifying and inhumane also - would you agree to that as well?
Peace.
 
Just to clarify.

It was not Free who closed the topic. It was me...

I am a moderator in this forum.

From now on I will be sure to clarify that.

Sorry for the confusion...
 
Thank you

Thank you for clarifying. I have to admit I thought it strange that I would be asked to respond and then have the topic locked so I could not respond. It said it was posted by a moderator so I "assumed" the request for a response and the locking was initiated by the same "moderator." Again, thank you for clarifying.
 
I find it interesting that james1964
In his post, james1964 says:

james1964 said:
If a Hadith does not follow with the Qur'an, it must be rejected.
Click to expand...

The site that james1964 copy-and-pasted from says something completely different:

www.submission.org said:
The Quran informs us that some enemies of the Prophet, described as "human and jinn devils," will fabricate lies and attribute them to the Prophet (6:112, 25:31).
This is precisely what happened after the prophet Muhammad's death; Hadith (oral) and Sunna (actions) were invented and attributed to the Prophet. Hadith and Sunna are satanic innovations because they:
[1] defy the divine assertions that the Quran is complete, perfect, fully detailed, and shall be the only source of religious guidance (6:19, 38, 114 & 45:6-7),
[2] blaspheme against the Prophet and depict him as a vicious tyrant who did not uphold the Quran, and
[3] create false doctrines based on superstition, ignorance, and indefensible nonsensical traditions. The prophet Muhammad was enjoined, in very strong words, from issuing any religious teachings besides the Quran (69:38-48).
Some Muslims compromise: "If a Hadith agrees with the Quran we will accept it, and if it contradicts the Quran, we will reject it!" Such premise proves that these people do not believe God's assertions that the Quran is "complete, perfect and fully detailed." The moment they seek guidance from anything besides the Quran, no matter how "right" it seems, they fall into Satan's trap (see 63:1). For they have rejected God's word and set up another god besides God (18:57).
Click to expand...

Source: http://www.submission.org/had-sunna.html

So which is it james1964? Do you accept or reject the Hadith? Do you still stand by your original understanding of the Hadith or do you accept what http://www.submission.org says when they claim that the Hadith and the Sunna are "satanic innovations"?

:-?
 
Part quotes on Hadith and Sunna...

In his post, james1964 part-quotes Fatimah T. Sakr from this site:
http://www.submission.org/jihad/cause.html

Here is the full quote:
Fatimah T. Sakr said:
Many of the so called "Muslim" scholars have confused the issue by their personal opinion that has NO support in the Quran. Most of these deviant opinions originate from false teachings found in the books of Hadiths and sunna. Hadiths and sunna books are a collection of fabricated stories about prophet Muhammed that have all kinds of cruel inhumane and corrupted opinions that contradict the Quran, contradict itself, and contradict as well any common sense. Most of the corruption we see in the "Muslim" world today comes from these man made books that were collected over 200 years after the death of Prophet Muhammed. Prophet Muhammed himself never advocated any books but the Quran and even instructed his followers NOT to write or collect such books. Please see our Hadiths and Sunna http://www.submission.org/hadith/ section for details.
Click to expand...
Source: http://www.submission.org/jihad/cause.html

Jihad

As this site above is trying to justify "jihad", why not take all the verses in the Quran which apply to Jihad and put them in chronological sequence and see the progression of Jihad in Islam?

This has been done here:

JIHAD - THE TEACHING OF ISLAM
FROM ITS PRIMARY SOURCES - THE QURAN AND HADITH

A study by Rev. Richard P. Bailey

[Note: This is a 26 page study. Please don't begin unless you intend to carefully and fully read all these verses from the Quran and the traditions on the subject of Jihad. It is my intent simply to make it possible for you to make your own judgment as to the teaching of Islam about Jihad.]

Read more here: http://www.answering-islam.org/Bailey/jihad.html

What may also be of interest are the following by James Arlandson:

James M. Arlandson (PhD) teaches introductory philosophy and world religions at a college in southern California. He has published a book, Women, Class, and Society in Early Christianity (Hendrickson, 1997).

For further online articles by James Arlandson, you may query "Arlandson" in the search box on http://www.AmericanThinker.com.

:)
 
I dare say one must be careful not to "promote Islam&qu

You are correct. It is a pro Islamic site, which I could not link to or I may be accused of "promoting Isam" - therfore I posted at the bottom of my post the resource in which I used instead [ie. Resource: Fatimah T. Sakr - the AUTHOR] Problem with that?

I of course must follow the rules of this Forum!! Posting a link to a web site that shows the truth of Islam is against the rules. Don't believe me? Just ask Muhsen :lol:

I find it interesting though that YOU were able to post a link to an Islamic website and were not "exalted" as "Promoting Islam" ??? Curious indeed! :wink:
 
All I have done is show the contradictions in your posts and your selective use (by using a part-quote) of a "resource."

:)
 
For anyone who reads it - they will see no "contradiction" whatsoever! In fact, I would "encourage" them to read it and find any contradiction at all. Your comments are ridiculous and I do believe I shall choose to "ignore" any and all other posts from you. How do I do that again? Oh yes, I see - just click this little "ignore" button. Correct? This is a very good "option" to add to a forum and I would like to thank the wonderful people who put this Discussion group together for thinking of it. I think I can find it. But before I click the little "ignore" button, may I first say ...Peace. :D
 
You reject selected Hadith... the web site you quoted from rejects ALL Hadith, saying: "Hadith (oral) and Sunna (actions) were invented and attributed to the Prophet. Hadith and Sunna are satanic innovations..."

This leads to real issues for Muslims. For instance, Bukhari spent the whole of his life collecting, sorting and filtering the Hadith until he had "Sahih Al-Bukhari". Sahih = authentic. These Hadith are published in a 9 volume set... there are over 7,000 of the Hadith in the collection.

In the introduction to the 9-volume Sahih Al-Bukhari, we read the following:

Muhammad Muhsin Khan said:
REGARDING IMAM BUKHARI AND HIS BOOK (SAHIH-AL-BUKHARI)

It has been unanimously agreed that Imam Bukhari's work is the most authentic of all the other works in Hadith literature put together. The authenticity of Al-Bukhari's work is such that the religious learned scholars of Islam said concerning him: "The most authentic book after the Book of Allah (i.e. Al-Qur'an) is Sahih-Al-Bukhari."

Imam Bukhari was born on 13th Shawwal in the year 194 A.H. in Bukhara in the territory of Khurasan (west Turkistan). His real name is Muhammad bin Ismail bin Al-Mughirah Al-Bukhari.

His father died when he was still a young child and he was looked after by his mother. At the age of ten he started acquiring the knowledge of Hadith. He travelled to Mecca when he was sixteen years old accompanied by his mother and elder brother. It seemed as though Imam Bukhari loved Mecca and its learned religious scholars for he remained in Mecca after bidding farewell to his mother and brother. He spent two years in Mecca and then went to Medina. After spending a total of six years in Al-Hijaz which comprises Mecca and Medina, he left for Basra, Kufa and Baghdad and visited many other places including Egypt and Syria. He came to Baghdad on many occasions. He met many religious learned scholars including Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal.

Owing to his honesty and kindness and the fact that he was trustworthy he used to keep away from the princes and rulers for fear that he may incline to say things to please them.

Many a story has been told about Imam Bukhari in his struggles in collecting Hadith literature. He travelled to many different places gathering the precious gems that fell from the lips of the noble Prophet Muhammad. It is said that Imam Bukhari collected over 300,000 Hadiths and he himself memorized 200,000 of which some where unreliable. He was born at a time when Hadith was being forged either to please rulers or Kings or to corrupt the religion of Islam.

It was a great task for him to sift the forged Hadiths from the authentic ones. He laboured day and night and although he had memorised such a large number he only chose approximately 7275 of which there is no doubt about their authenticity.

Before he recorded each Hadith, he would make ablution and offer a two Rak’at prayer and supplicate his Lord (Allah). Many religious scholars of Islam tried to find fault in the great remarkable collection of `Sahih-Al-Bukhari' but without success. It's for this reason they unanimously agreed that the most authentic book after the Book of Allah is Sahih-Al-Bukhari.

Imam Bukhari died on First Shawwal in the year 256 A.H., and was buried in Khartank, a village near Samarkand. May Allah have mercy ,on his soul.

Having noticed the great need of those Muslims who do not know Arabic to learn the correct authentic Hadiths of Allah's Apostle and since Sahih-Al-Bukhari is regarded as the most reliable book of the Prophet’s Hadiths, I have undertaken the project of translating the meanings of the Hadiths it contains into English to serve my Muslim-brethren who know this language, but have not had the chance to learn Arabic.

My only hope is that Allah, the Glorious, may help the Muslims to benefit by this Glorious Book and that I may win a reward in the Hereafter similar to the rewards of those who will act upon its instructions; as Allah's Apostle says: "He who guides somebody to what is good will have a reward similar to the reward of the doer of that good deed (whom he has guided to it)." (Narrated by Muslim in his Sahih).

Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan
Islamic University
Medina AI-Munawwara
(Saudi Arabia)
Click to expand...

Now it is interesting that you have a new methodology of either (1) rejecting selected Hadith which Bukhari collected (2) rejecting ALL the Hadith!

In the preface of the 9-volume set of "authentic" Sahih Al-Bukhari, we have the following:

MUHAMMAD AMIN AL-MISRI said:
In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful

Praise be to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds, and Peace be upon the Master of the Apostles, his Family and Companions.

We, the undersigned, have read this translation of the Meanings of "Sahih al-Bukhari" achieved by Dr. Muhammed Muhsin Khan and have done our best to revise and correct it from its beginning to its end so that, with the ability and efforts available, it has come near to correctness as much as possible.

We thank Allah, the Elevated, for the success of this beneficial project and ask Him to bountifully reward all those who have undertaken it or participated in it  Allah's Pleasure being our aim, and it is He who guides us on the right path.

Signed:
(1) Shakir Nasif AI-Ubaydi:
M.A. English, Vanderbilt
Univ., U.S.A.;
Teacher of English:
Baghdad Univ., & College
of Education, Mecca.

(2) Dr. Mahmud Hamad
Nasr: Graduate of
Khartum Univ.
Physician, King Hospital,
Medina.

(3) Dr. Muhammad Taqiy-ad-
Din AI-Hilali: Ph.D.
Berlin Univ., Germany;
Professor; Muhammad V
Univ., Morocco;
Islamic Univ., Medina.

I have persued a little portion of this translation and found that the translator has succeeded in rendering the meanings of "Al-Jami' As-Sahih" (Sahih al-Bukhari) into English in a simple comprehensible style free from complications. I have also noticed that he has chosen successfully the best and most authentic interpretation of some Hadiths that are interpreted differently by different scholars.

Dr. Mahmud Hamad As-Sudani did his best to check the whole translation. The second revision was done by Mr. Shakir Nasif Al-Ubaydi. Finally, Dr. Muhammad Taqiy-ad-Din Al-Hilali checked the translation with the translator Dr. M.M. Khan thoroughly and minutely, doing his utmost to correct the minor mistakes he detected, till the translation acquired a high degree of precision.

May Allah bountifully reward whoever has participated in this benevolent work; and may He make people benefit by it.

I am perfectly sure that the translation, with Allah's help and after all the great efforts exerted in its production, has neared perfection.

In Allah's Hands are all means of success. And Praise be to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.

Signed:
MUHAMMAD AMIN AL-MISRI
Ph.D. Cambridge Univ.,
Advisor & Head of Shari'a Department
College of Shari'a and Islamic Studies,
Mecca Al-Mukarrama.
Click to expand...

A lot of effort.... all to be totally rejected by your "resource"... Fatimah T. Sakr!!!

:o :o
 
Contradiction

james1964 said:
For anyone who reads it - they will see no "contradiction" whatsoever! In fact, I would "encourage" them to read it and find any contradiction at all.....
Click to expand...

OK. Let us again read/quote what you wrote:

james1964 said:
If a Hadith does not follow with the Qur'an, it must be rejected.
Click to expand...

and then let us read/quote from the web site you used:

submission.org said:
(1) Hadith (oral) and Sunna (actions) were invented and attributed to the Prophet. Hadith and Sunna are satanic innovations...

(2) The prophet Muhammad was enjoined, in very strong words, from issuing any religious teachings besides the Quran (69:38-48).
Some Muslims compromise: "If a Hadith agrees with the Quran we will accept it, and if it contradicts the Quran, we will reject it!" Such premise proves that these people do not believe God's assertions that the Quran is "complete, perfect and fully detailed." The moment they seek guidance from anything besides the Quran, no matter how "right" it seems, they fall into Satan's trap (see 63:1). For they have rejected God's word and set up another god besides God (18:57).
Click to expand...

So the web site you part-quoted totally rejects all Hadith!

Still unable to see the contradiction?

:) :)
 
Simplifying the contradictions

Bukhari:

  • Many a story has been told about Imam Bukhari in his struggles in collecting Hadith literature. He travelled to many different places gathering the precious gems that fell from the lips of the noble Prophet Muhammad. It is said that Imam Bukhari collected over 300,000 Hadiths and he himself memorized 200,000 of which some where unreliable. He was born at a time when Hadith was being forged either to please rulers or Kings or to corrupt the religion of Islam.

    It was a great task for him to sift the forged Hadiths from the authentic ones. He laboured day and night and although he had memorised such a large number he only chose approximately 7275 of which there is no doubt about their authenticity.
James1964:

  • If a Hadith does not follow with the Qur'an, it must be rejected.
Submission.org:

  • (1) Hadith (oral) and Sunna (actions) were invented and attributed to the Prophet. Hadith and Sunna are satanic innovations...

    (2) The prophet Muhammad was enjoined, in very strong words, from issuing any religious teachings besides the Quran (69:38-48).
    Some Muslims compromise: "If a Hadith agrees with the Quran we will accept it, and if it contradicts the Quran, we will reject it!" Such premise proves that these people do not believe God's assertions that the Quran is "complete, perfect and fully detailed." The moment they seek guidance from anything besides the Quran, no matter how "right" it seems, they fall into Satan's trap (see 63:1). For they have rejected God's word and set up another god besides God (18:57).
Summary: Which Hadith do you accept?

  • Bukhari: 7275

    james1964: Some.

    Submission.org: None.

:-? :-? :-?
 
james1964,

When you first came here you stated that you were "raised a Christian" and wanted to learn more about Islam".

I now appears you know or think you know quite a bit about Islam and are here to defend and perhaps promote it.

If you want to know what is wrong with Islam and the vast differences between it's god and the true and Living God you would be in the right place.

It is obvious now that this is not the case. There are Muslim sites all over the internet. I suggest you go there in your quest for knowledge about the sworn enemy of Christians...

This is a "Christian" forum... ;-)
 
DivineNames said:
Prophet Muhammed himself NEVER waged any war except for self defense
Click to expand...


What is this claim based on?
Click to expand...
A complete denial of the war campaigns of Islam in its first century.

624: Battle of Badr. Expulsion of the Bani Qainuqa Jews from Madina.
625: Battle of Uhud. Massacre of 70 Muslims at Bir Mauna. Expulsion of Banu Nadir Jews from Madina. Second expedition of Badr.
626: Expedition of Banu Mustaliq.
627: Battle of the Trench. Expulsion of Banu Quraiza Jews.
628: Truce of Hudaibiya. Expedition to Khyber. The Holy Prophet addresses letters to various heads of states.
629: The Holy Prophet performs the pilgrimage at Makkah. Expedition to Muta (Romans).
630: Conquest of Makkah. Battles of Hunsin, Auras, and Taif.
631: Expedition to Tabuk. Year of Deputations.
632: Farewell pilgrimage at Makkah.

After the death of General Mohammed
633: Campaigns in Bahrain, Oman, Mahrah Yemen, and Hadramaut. Raids in Iraq. Battles of Kazima, Mazar, Walaja, Ulleis, Hirah, Anbar, Ein at tamr, Daumatul Jandal and Firaz.
634: Battles of Basra, Damascus and Ajnadin. Death of Hadrat Abu Bakr. Hadrat Umar Farooq becomes the Caliph. Battles of Namaraq and Saqatia.
635: Battle of Bridge. Battle of Buwaib. Conquest of Damascus. Battle of Fahl.
636: Battle of Yermuk. Battle of Qadsiyia. Conquest of Madain.
637: Conquest of Syria. Fall of Jerusalem. Battle of Jalula.
638: Conquest of Jazirah.
639: Conquest of Khuizistan. Advance into Egypt.
640: Capture of the post of Caesaria in Syria. Conquest of Shustar and Jande Sabur in Persia. Battle of Babylon in Egypt.
641: Battle of Nihawand. Conquest Of Alexandria in Egypt.
642: Battle of Rayy in Persia. Conquest of Egypt. Foundation of Fustat.
643: Conquest of Azarbaijan and Tabaristan (Russia).
644: Conquest of Fars, Kerman, Sistan, Mekran and Kharan.Martyrdom of Hadrat Umar. Hadrat Othman becomes the Caliph.
645: Campaigns in Fats.
646: Campaigns in Khurasan, Armeain and Asia Minor.
647: Campaigns in North Africa. Conquest of the island of Cypress.
648: Campaigns against the Byzantines.

The immediate successors of the Prophet understood their mission, which was sanctified in the clashing of swords.
source: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/history/chr ... tury7.html
 
Who cares about the site that that info came from
Click to expand...

james1964 said:
I have to agree with you. Who cares what site it comes from? If I point you to a site with "contexual" and accurate information or I point you to a site with inaccurate, misleading information?
Click to expand...


What sources are you using (or your sites with supposedly "contextual" information) to put Islam / the Quran / the life of Muhammad into context? Do you have better sources than those used by Craig Winn? If so, you need to explain exactly what they are.

What better sources exist than the two most authoritative collections of hadith, the earliest biography of Muhammad, and the history of Tabari?

You talk about "contextual and accurate" information, and all you have produced so far is a quote from some nothing heretic.

:roll:
 
What A Scam You've Got Going On

Divine Names Writes:
You talk about "contextual and accurate" information, and all you have produced so far is a quote from some nothing heretic.
Click to expand...

Apparently you do not know the "Rules of this Forum" Mr. Divine names. Posting links to accurate and contexual information about Islam is NOT ALLOWED unless of course, you are a part of the scam. Don't believe me?

Ask Muhsen!! He WAS BANNED. What a scam you have going here. Bet it comes to an end soon. I'd bet money you'll be exposed very soon. Inciting hate is a crime. Look that up :)
 
To Divine Names and/or others

Divine Names,

Hopefully bibleberean or the moderators will not see this as "promoting Islam" but here are just a few sites you might want to look at. Please know I am in no way attempting to "convert" anyone to Islam but simply hoping to offer more accurate understanding of the faith. We will see how it is perceived by the moderators but again, I am NOT promoting Islam with the following links. Just hope to show Islam in it's true light rather than the biased and half-truths offered up by others on this forum:

Sorry James,

The sites presented are Islamic sites and they promote the false Jesus of the Koran therefore this is promoting Islam.

You personally may not be promoting Islam but the TOS is clear on this topic...

This is nothing personal and I am not questioning your intent in this post...

You can provide quotes from these sites but the sites themselves promote the teachings of the false prophet of Islam and present the koran as a book of truth.

Rule 8 - No Promotion of Other Religions:

You will not post any messages; links, images or photos that promote a religion or belief other than mainstream Christianity (atheism is considered a "belief" for the purposes of this rule). Debates of these doctrines are fine, as long as the beliefs are not actively promoted. This is a Christian Forums as the name suggest. If you cannot abide with this, please do not use our site.

Thanks,

Robert

bibleberean
 
Re: What A Scam You've Got Going On

james1964 said:
I'd bet money you'll be exposed very soon. Inciting hate is a crime. Look that up :)
Click to expand...


You really don't understand what the term means do you?

If all you wish to do is undermine a religion, destroy the credibility of a religion, or expose immoral aspects of a religion, then you are perfectly free to do it. There is no "crime" in polemical assault against Islam.

By the way, making a false accusation of "inciting hate" could be regarded as libel. :D
 
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