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Topic #4 Why would god make "vessels of destruction"?

Deavonreye

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To those who believe that god purposefully makes people with absolutely no chance of "salvation", with no will of their own, but just to live as "the unjust" and be sent to hell, . . . . why would god do this? What purpose would billions of "unjust" being created accomplish?
 
Perhaps you want to focus this thread on those who believe that "vessels of destruction" (as per Romans 9) are those pre-destined to be lost. You should be aware that there is another interpretation as to what Paul is referring to with that metaphor. And, on that other view, the "vessels of destruction" are not those pre-destined to ultimate loss.
 
Thank you, Drew. Yes, I'm refering to those who believe there are "people pre-destined to be lost".
 
I'm still waiting for those, who believe this, to respond.

Along with this question, for those who believe this, please tell me how you personally feel about those who ARE "vessels of destruction". Thank you.
 
I see no "light on the subject", or my questions.
“… (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the
purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls) ----- Romans 9:11
God chose Jacob over Esaw before they were born.
Neither had done any good or evil at the time the choice was made.
It was not based on their works.
It was based solely on Him who calls.
Jacob's election was based solely on grace.
Esaw was not the subject of God's electing purpose.
This whole theme is the subject of Romans 9 -- 11.

In 9:22, the grammatical structure of the first "prepared" literally means "prepared themselves".
In 9:23, the grammatical structure of the second "prepared" literally means "which He prepared".

It's the old story ...
God sees the end from the beginning.
He knows who have the right heart attitude, etc.
He wants something to compare the good to ... for contrast.
These are created, used, and thrown away. Sorry.
God can do what He wants. Who are we to judge Him?
 
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“… (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the
purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls) ----- Romans 9:11
God chose Jacob over Esaw before they were born.
Neither had done any good or evil at the time the choice was made.
It was not based on their works.
It was based solely on Him who calls.
Jacob's election was based solely on grace.
Esaw was not the subject of God's electing purpose.
This whole theme is the subject of Romans 9 -- 11.

In 9:22, the grammatical structure of the first "prepared" literally means "prepared themselves".
In 9:23, the grammatical structure of the second "prepared" literally means "which He prepared".

It's the old story ...
God sees the end from the beginning.
He knows who have the right heart attitude, etc.
He wants something to compare the good to ... for contrast.
These are created, used, and thrown away. Sorry.


The "right heart"? You mean, a person who will believe the one religion out of thousands that happens to be right? And, so that these few people can feel good about their afterlife, the vaste majority are punished in hell? You don't find that highly immoral/unethical? If a person, who had an evil filled life, has an honest and sincere death bed conversion, they get to enjoy heaven, . . . but the person who lived to harm no one, but happen to not believe correctly somehow doesn't have the "right heart".

God can do what He wants. Who are we to judge Him?

Why? Because he has all the power? Having all the power doesn't make someone qualified to judge morally. He may have all the power to do what he wants, and we may have no say in that, . . . but it [creating people to suffer for all eternity so a few can feel good about their afterlife] doesn't automatically make this being someone to worship for it.

This may be harsh, but it is the way I feel about it.

Answer this: How do YOU feel about these people who have no choice in their suffering afterlife?
 
Sure, everyone understands your frustration.

But, I believe you have not gotten the revelation that:
1) ALL humans are garbage in God's eyes, and are destined for the garbage dump.
2) But, GOD has enough mercy and grace to save SOME.
3) So, somehow ... He chose SOME for mercy.

It truly is like the potter and the clay ...
The guy makes some pots, and keeps the good ones and throws away the ones he doesn't like.
It's just as simple and terrible as that. Can you accept it?

Israel’s Rejection and God’s Purpose

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect.
For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham;
but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”
8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God;
but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man,
even by our father Isaac
11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that
the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”
13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Israel’s Rejection and God’s Justice

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!
15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”
16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up,
that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”
18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?”
20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed
say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”
21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump
to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known,
endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on
the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As He says also in Hosea: “I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
You are not My people,’There they shall be called sons of the living God.”
27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the children of Israel
be as the sand of the sea, (only) the remnant will be saved.
28 For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the LORD will make a short work upon the earth.”
29 And as Isaiah said before: “Unless the LORD of Sabaoth had left us a seed,
We would have become like Sodom, And we would have been made like Gomorrah.”
 
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I know that you (DR) want to engage those who believe in pre-destination. But I repeat: the Romans 9 text certainly does not support pre-destination, even though many have co-opted it into that role.
 
Sure, everyone understands your frustration.

But, I believe you have not gotten the revelation that:
1) ALL humans are garbage in God's eyes, and are destined for the garbage dump.
2) But, GOD has enough mercy and grace to save SOME.

Why only enough to save some? Doesn't he love all humans?
And aren't humans the pinnacle of God's creation? Why would he think we're garbage?
 
Why only enough to save some? Doesn't he love all humans?
And aren't humans the pinnacle of God's creation? Why would he think we're garbage?
Because everyone is a sinner, unfit to spend eternity with God in heaven, that's why.
Don't you guys ever get taught any truth in your churches?
 
Sure, everyone understands your frustration.

But, I believe you have not gotten the revelation that:
1) ALL humans are garbage in God's eyes, and are destined for the garbage dump.
2) But, GOD has enough mercy and grace to save SOME.
3) So, somehow ... He chose SOME for mercy.

It truly is like the potter and the clay ...
The guy makes some pots, and keeps the good ones and throws away the ones he doesn't like.
It's just as simple and terrible as that. Can you accept it?

Brother, I think your choice of words here can cause some confusion. The Bible says we are "fearfully and wonderfully made," that "God so loved the world," and that "our self-righteousness is like filthy rags before God"

While I understand and accept what you're saying, I think those who are seeking the truth don't want to be told they are garbage. *because they are not!* Most people humbly seeking the Truth are able to recognize their sin and faults. Jesus loved us when we were dead in our sin, Jesus doesn't love or make garbage.
 
To those who believe that god purposefully makes people with absolutely no chance of "salvation", with no will of their own, but just to live as "the unjust" and be sent to hell, . . . . why would god do this? What purpose would billions of "unjust" being created accomplish?

First, let me say that I object to the way you phrase the question. The way you phrase the question demonstrates gross ignorance of what Calvinists teach and is more of a misrepresentation of what Calvinists believe then a proper question. I can only assume that you did not intentionally misrepresent Calvinists out of malice, but out of ignorance because you do not know any better. Strangely enough, Arminians repeat misrepresentations of Calvinism so much, they actually convince each other of their own misrepresentations. To be more specific, God did not "purposely make people with no chance of salvation." Let me rephrase that part of the question... ---> "Why did God made Adam innocent, but decreed that he would fall into sin and take the human race with him as the representative head with the result that men would become "vessels of destruction."

Also, the 2nd part of your question misrepresents Calvinism when you claim man has no "will of his own." Man has a will, but Calvinist believe that the will was bent toward sin during the fall. Its called "sin nature." The will is bent toward rebellion, trespass and sin so much, that we do make a choice. We choose that which are nature wants us to chose and since we relish and love our rebellion, we all choose sin. So then, our disagreement is not over the ability of man to choose, but our disagreement is over the nature of man. You see man as morally neutral in nature, I see man as morally corrupt in nature and loves his sin far to much to choose any different.

No to answer you question. The question really needs no answer because it is explicitily stated within the text. Let me quote from the differnt translations and the WH Greek text.


(KJV) 22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
(ASV) 22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:
(NIV) 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?
(Greek) 22 ει δε θελων ο θεος ενδειξασθαι την οργην και γνωρισαι το δυνατον αυτου ηνεγκεν εν πολλη μακροθυμια σκευη οργης κατηρτισμενα εις απωλειαν

Why did God decree that Adam and mankind would fall into sin? "to show his wrath, and make his power known." It is Gods will that he show his own attributes and receive glory. He wants men in eternity to know his wrath against sin. He wants men to know his power over sinners in their own lives. He wants men to know of his longsuffering with evil men. In that context Paul talks about Pharaoh. In verse 18 Paul talks about God "hardening mens hearts."
18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.
Just before this Paul says he did this was to make his "power known."
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth.
That is the same phrase found later in verse 22 where God wants to make his "power known."

Why does God harden hearts? Why does God decree the condemnation of certain individuals and people? To make his power known, and to make his wrath known. The answer is right in the text.
 
I know that you (DR) want to engage those who believe in pre-destination. But I repeat: the Romans 9 text certainly does not support pre-destination, even though many have co-opted it into that role.

Drew, I see there being absolutely no sense in the "pre-destination" stuff either. Hate can never be a trait that is worthy.
 
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