Torn about staying or leaving my church...

[dhoenisch]

Hey All, I was hoping to see what advice this Christian community could offer to me.

I am currently active in the church I have been going to for about 5-years. At one point, I was in the music ministry, a Sunday School teacher and a volunteer at Kids Club, as well as being a VBS leader every year.

Over the past year (though this kind of thing has been going on since day 1), things at my current church have been going down hill. There is pretty much no leadership to speak of. We supposedly have two deacons, but don't know where they are or what they do. Everything is done at the last minute, including the music which is chosen at the last minute and rarely if ever practiced (which is why I am no longer in that ministry). There is a "favorites" group, and if you aren't a part of it, you get ignored. There's always talk about community outreach, but very little action, and the action that is taken is not planned and done at the last minute. Nobody seems to care very much about anything around there. A lot of people have left the church, and we're fortunate if we have 30 people come on a Sunday, and that includes the holiday Sundays. Any concerns brought up are quickly ignored, especially if you aren't a "favorite." Also, there is no consistency. And, everyone, including "leadership" is always late.

Oh, and since I know the question will come up, I DID speak to my pastor about all of this over a month ago without even a hint of anything changing.

Now, here's where I'm torn. I know a popular reason to leave a church is if the preaching isn't Biblical or is full of fluff. Now, my pastor does preach a good Biblical sermon, and it does seem pretty much the ONLY thing in that church that any time is given to. Problem is though, I am so distracted by all the other stuff that goes on (or the lack thereof) that I have a hard time paying attention to the sermons.

Also, I teach Sunday School and volunteer in Kids Club. Even though the parents bring their kids late all the time, and it drives me absolutely crazy, I love teaching and I would miss the kids tremendously.

Now, I've been trying to tolerate this, but the past year has been extremely bad with all of the above. But, because of the kids, I've kept going since I love being with them every Sunday, and so there is at least some structure in that church. But, this past weekend, I was at an all community yard sale, and as I was walking up and down the streets, I walked by a small baptist church that I haven't been able to get out of my mind. I really feel strongly that I need to at least check it out. And, I may give up a couple of Sundays to see what that church is all about. But, what if I like it and feel like that's where I need to go? What do I do then? Do I leave the kids and HOPE someone will teach them instead of abandon them like the church has already done with our teenagers, who no longer go?

Anyhow, I am desperately seeking advice from other Christians.

Thanks all,
Dan

 

[WIP]

I am currently active in the church I have been going to for about 5-years. At one point, I was in the music ministry, a Sunday School teacher and a volunteer at Kids Club, as well as being a VBS leader every year.<O:p</O:p
My response will use our church as a reference so maybe our methods won’t apply the same.

We are a small independent conservative country Lutheran church with a total membership of about 70. Our council including President, V. President, Secretary, Treasurer, Deacons, Trustees, Board of Education, and others is made up of elected members from our congregation. <O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
Before I was elected as council president we were quite loosely run, which was a concern for me. The first thing I did when I took office was request a copy of the church constitution and I learned that there were a number of rules we weren’t following and I set out to change that. I met some opposition but we worked through it. <O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
Some of the things I did probably should have been delegated but I figured I needed to lead by example so I was probably more of a hand’s-on president than I should have been. There were times when I felt a bit overwhelmed but I got through it and if I asked for help I usually got it. As a result of my hand’s-on approach I was elected to three terms even though only two terms were allowed by our constitution. I accepted the third on the condition that someone else serves the next term because I wanted to be sure to have others get involved. From that effort we now hold a minimum of four quarterly council meetings and at least one congregational meeting annually. In fact, our current president was the source of most of the opposition I faced and now he continues where I left off. He’s not as rigid about it but he’s trying. <O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
Now that I serve as Deacon I also requested that we Deacons meet with our pastor on a regular basis even if we only have a prayer meeting. Speaking of which, we should be due for another meeting. Looks like I might have to request it again like I did the last time. My goal is to inspire our congregation to serve the mission of our church. <O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
About a year ago during a council meeting I suggested the possibility of starting a community outreach program. Our pastor’s wife grabbed that idea and ran. She has now organized an after school program involving quite a few other churches in the community. She said she didn’t want it to be a Sauk Valley Lutheran Church program but a joint Christian community effort. I haven’t been following the progress but her last report was that she secured access to use the high school building for the program and has many local churches involved. One of them might even be a Catholic church, I’m not sure. <O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
It takes people to get things done. If we want things to move faster we can’t force others to do it but we can lead the way.

 

[WIP]

Over the past year (though this kind of thing has been going on since day 1), things at my current church have been going down hill. There is pretty much no leadership to speak of. We supposedly have two deacons, but don't know where they are or what they do. Everything is done at the last minute, including the music which is chosen at the last minute and rarely if ever practiced (which is why I am no longer in that ministry).

When you speak of leadership my first thought is to ask you where you think this leadership should be coming from. If your church is similar to ours, the leadership comes from the congregation. Those that we elect to our council are expected to provide much of the leadership for our church. Do most things seem to get done by a small percentage of the congregation? Absolutely but we don’t keep tabs. Our mission is to serve not be served. There are many times I wish we would do this or that but if I’m not willing to do it myself, who am I to dictate that others do it?<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
Our choir, which I am also a member, meets every Wednesday after confirmation class for a one hour practice. We meet at this time because many of the kids are already there for confirmation class and this makes it more convenient for the parents to participate. We encourage our youth to participate in the choir and over 30% of it is actually made up of kids from grades 8 through 12. We’re pretty proud of them especially because it means nearly every kid in that age group is also in our choir. We also encourage the kids to play the piano for us and sing solos, duets, trios, etc. whenever they are willing. <O:p</O:p

 

[WIP]

There is a "favorites" group, and if you aren't a part of it, you get ignored. There's always talk about community outreach, but very little action, and the action that is taken is not planned and done at the last minute. Nobody seems to care very much about anything around there. A lot of people have left the church, and we're fortunate if we have 30 people come on a Sunday, and that includes the holiday Sundays. Any concerns brought up are quickly ignored, especially if you aren't a "favorite." Also, there is no consistency. And, everyone, including "leadership" is always late.

I too am guilty of using the “favorites†crutch. Too often I think we like to fall back on that when things don’t go our way when in reality we may just need to change our approach to inspire action. You say your concerns were brought up but I would be interested in how you did this. Did you do as I have done at times and bring them up during idle chit-chat with other members (usually ineffective) or did you bring them up at a council or congregational meeting where you have the floor? My wife often complains about how things are done and in most cases I just turn it back to her and ask which council meeting she brought it up at. I do this because I know she rarely, if ever, attends our meetings and when she does attend she won’t speak up.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
Does your church hold regular congregational and/or council meetings? If not, it should. How about running for one of the council offices? If the community outreach or other things are not handled as you would hope, how about taking the bull by the horns yourself? When you need help, ask.<O:p</O:p

 

[WIP]

Oh, and since I know the question will come up, I DID speak to my pastor about all of this over a month ago without even a hint of anything changing.

In our church the pastor is not necessarily the one in charge. The pastor is “hired†by the congregation and his purpose is to serve the congregation, not the other way around. Talking to your pastor might be helpful but he may have limited ability to force change. Our pastor attends all of our meetings and offers his input. He is very well respected and we pay attention but this is not always the case.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

Now, here's where I'm torn. I know a popular reason to leave a church is if the preaching isn't Biblical or is full of fluff. Now, my pastor does preach a good Biblical sermon, and it does seem pretty much the ONLY thing in that church that any time is given to. Problem is though, I am so distracted by all the other stuff that goes on (or the lack thereof) that I have a hard time paying attention to the sermons.

Can you give examples of the “other stuff†that distract you during the pastor’s sermon? When our pastor is speaking I find that if I am distracted it is of my own doing.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

Also, I teach Sunday School and volunteer in Kids Club. Even though the parents bring their kids late all the time, and it drives me absolutely crazy, I love teaching and I would miss the kids tremendously.

I teach the high school age Sunday school at our church, grades 9-12. I often remind the kids to try and arrive promptly but I also understand that most of them are subject to their parents in this. The ones that usually arrive on time are the same ones whose parents also attend the adult Bible study program, they drive themselves, or in the case of my daughters they haven’t got much choice. Does your church have an adult Bible study and if so, do they meet at the same time as the Sunday school programs? If not, you might suggest trying this. You can sell the idea on the convenience factor. We typically have about 15 adults in our group.<O:p</O:p

 

[WIP]

Now, I've been trying to tolerate this, but the past year has been extremely bad with all of the above. But, because of the kids, I've kept going since I love being with them every Sunday, and so there is at least some structure in that church. But, this past weekend, I was at an all community yard sale, and as I was walking up and down the streets, I walked by a small baptist church that I haven't been able to get out of my mind. I really feel strongly that I need to at least check it out. And, I may give up a couple of Sundays to see what that church is all about. But, what if I like it and feel like that's where I need to go? What do I do then? Do I leave the kids and HOPE someone will teach them instead of abandon them like the church has already done with our teenagers, who no longer go?

Please forgive me but I can’t help but think that part of the problem might be that you’re expecting to receive from the church more than give. You have high expectations of your fellow congregants and they disappoint you. I’ve heard it said that the more you put into a marriage the more you get out of it. I believe this is also true when it comes to our church. The more you put into it, the more you get out of it. If we’re giving in order to receive we are often disappointed. Give with an open heart and it will be filled.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
I too have felt certain stagnation in our congregation and I know I can’t force the rest to get fired up but I can influence my own reaction and sometimes it takes someone to start so others can follow. Be a leader; they will follow. Start slow so you don’t get overwhelmed. It can be your mission of witnessing for Christ. I think most congregations need a kick in the pants once in a while. Maybe that’s why God has brought you there.<O:p</O:p

 

[dhoenisch]

Thanks for your views all. And, I will try to answer some of the questions or thoughts you have provided.

My church leadership is made up of just the pastor and two deacons. Problem is, the deacons are hardly there. The two Sunday School teachers aren't viewed as leaders, as far as I can see.

I have personally tried putting in a lot. I'm not one of those expecting to get out more than I put in. Quite the opposite really. I have tried leading but I don't think I'm seen as a leader since the leaders don't expect it as I'm not a "favorite." The "non-favorites" do tend to go to me to tell me their grievances with the church, and I just don't know what to tell them anymore.

In the past when I did try to suggest stuff, offered to do stuff, lead stuff, I would just get shot down. Here's one example: In Kids Club, I was happy to see that some kids brought their Bibles with them, and I had suggested that maybe we could give a piece of candy to the kids that bring their Bibles to encourage the others to bring theirs. I also mentioned that I would purchase Bibles for the kids that don't have one. That idea got shot down immediately. Then, a couple of months later, one of the "favorites" suggested the same thing, and that idea was embraced. Another example is I offered to make the church bulletins since sometimes we wouldn't have any. I did this for about a year and would send reminders out for songs, info, etc. Most of the time, I would get nothing from anyone. Then, on Sunday, those who needed the information in the bulletin would tell the pastor right before the service what songs they needed or what announcements would need to be announced.

When I did talk to the pastor, it was one on one in his office. I mentioned what was going on, and how others told me they felt without mentioning names, and even asked what I can do. No suggestions were given. I just need some guidance or a clue as to what needs to be worked on. I am willing to give more of myself, but nobody is willing to pitch in or even cooperate.

To answer the distractions question, I am just distracted by how things are currently in the church, and I think that's what takes away from me being able to pay attention. It's a personal conflict of my, I guess, unhappiness of how things are, so that's what distracts me.

As for meetings, we are lucky to have even one a year, and it's usually one-sided. Basically, the pastor makes the list, and that's all that's talked about. No exceptions.

Also, I am not offended by anything you all have said. It does make me think back to see if there are things I've missed or done wrong. Also, maybe there is more that I can do, I just don't know what that is.

Thanks for the comments, and I will take everything said into consideration and prayer.

Dan

 

[handy]

Dan,

It sounds as if you are in a hard place brother.

While our connections to our local church is very important...it doesn't eclipse the importance of our service to God. After all, that is what worship is, service...and as part of a local congregation we must spur each other to further service.

You might ask yourself..."Is this church equipping me for better service to our Lord, or hindering my service to Him?"

I think the answer to that question holds the answer to your greater problem.

This isn't to minimize the importance of our relationship with our local congregations. Currently, my kids are taking classes prior to becoming communicant members in our church and our pastor points out often that the promises that we make to our church are every bit as important as the promises we make to our spouse on our wedding day. So, any decision to leave a church should be one that is solemnly and prayerfully considered.

However, that isn't to say that sometimes there isn't good reason to move on to a different place. If you are truly stifled in your service to God there and what should be a place of encouragement, equipment and exhortation is more of an emotional drain, then perhaps it is best to check out that other church.

 

[WIP]

Yes. As usual Handy's advice is worth taking. I agree that the decision to leave must be "solemnly and prayerfully considered" so don't take what I said to mean that you must remain at all costs. Our church is only recently independent and leaving the big church was a tough decision that took us many years to make. It is obvious you are really troubled by this and I pray the Lord will guide you.

 

[dhoenisch]

Thank you both again for your views on this.

I've been praying about this for some time, and I believe God answered my prayers earlier today. Shortly before I left work today, my pastor sent me an e-mail. Without giving details, it seems he gave our talk some thought, and it looks like things might start changing. I may be taking a bit more responsibility at church now as it looks like I will be allowed now. He and I need to talk this over, but just the fact that he e-mailed me just when I thought I was going to start my search tells me that my prayer has been answered.

While I know change doesn't happen overnight, this is a start; a start that took a few years to get to. I will continue to pray that God shows my pastor and me where I can be used in this church and what He has for me to do. I hope to report back here with news of transformation.

Thanks again for your thoughts and prayers,
Dan