Was Grace Always Avaliable

[manichunter]

Was "Grace" operating before the first covenant and within the first covenant?

I believe God changes not. Grace has always been avaliable from God for a person to appeal to for repentance, forgiveness, and restoration.

Why was Adam and Eve spared immediate death? Why was Abraham allowed to go forth out of Egypt? Why was Moses spared after striking the rock? Why was David not stoned for his murder and adultery?

I believe it was God's grace that had not yet been fully manifested to all man except those who appealed to what was already avaliable. Grace has always been avaliable for a person who loves God, is repentive of sin, and desires to please God in what they do.

 

[one_lost_coin]

Was "Grace" operating before the first covenant and within the first covenant?

I believe God changes not. Grace has always been avaliable from God for a person to appeal to for repentance, forgiveness, and restoration.

Why was Adam and Eve spared immediate death? Why was Abraham allowed to go forth out of Egypt? Why was Moses spared after striking the rock? Why was David not stoned for his murder and adultery?

I believe it was God's grace that had not yet been fully manifested to all man except those who appealed to what was already avaliable. Grace has always been avaliable for a person who loves God, is repentive of sin, and desires to please God in what they do.

Although I agree grace is and has been available even to Adam and Eve that would seem to refute it is something appealed to rather it is something we receive. Adam and Eve before the fall had no need to appeal to anything so their could be no reason for grace in that system of belief. The orthodox (not capitol O as in the church) view has always been we receive grace which Adam and Eve did before the fall and we do after.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Was "Grace" operating before the first covenant and within the first covenant?.....

Yes, it was and is:

1) Adam and Eve were created in a state of grace. They fell from grace through sin (something for you "once saved always saved" folks to remember).

2) God wills the salvation of all men, and therefore gives them the grace to achieve that, IF they respond properly to it.

(BTW: There have been six covenants. Read my post: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=32677

 

[Rick W]

Would God delivering His people out of the bondage of Egypt be considered grace? There are many instances throughout scripture of God's mercy to an undeserving people.
:smt102

 

[manichunter]

Where they waiting on the Messiah, to complete their salvation? What was the promise God gave Eve? What was the promise God gave Abraham? What was the promise that God gave Israel?

How would He redeem mankind? He already had redeemed mankind.

So why was Adam, Abel, Seth, Abraham, Noah, David and Isaac obedient to God? How did they show that they believed the promise? They all were violators of Torah, but God's grace allowed them to continue.

If "Grace" has always been avaliable, then why can't the "Torah" be avaliable now. The mystery is that they have always worked together even beyond the knowledge of mankind. Why would they stop working together today. For even the sacrifice of the Messiah was before the foundation of the world working on mankind's part for redemption before creation. Re 13:8 -All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

...So why was Adam, Abel, Seth, Abraham, Noah, David and Isaac obedient to God? How did they show that they believed the promise? They all were violators of Torah, but God's grace allowed them to continue.....

They all died before the Torah was even written!
(..except for David)

 

[manichunter]

...So why was Adam, Abel, Seth, Abraham, Noah, David and Isaac obedient to God? How did they show that they believed the promise? They all were violators of Torah, but God's grace allowed them to continue.....

They all died before the Torah was even written!
(..except for David)

Remember they all gave animal sacrifices and Noah was given instruction, I why do you think God destroyed Sodom, and the old world by the flood.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

...So why was Adam, Abel, Seth, Abraham, Noah, David and Isaac obedient to God? How did they show that they believed the promise? They all were violators of Torah, but God's grace allowed them to continue.....

They all died before the Torah was even written!
(..except for David)

Remember they all gave animal sacrifices and Noah was given instruction, I why do you think God destroyed Sodom, and the old world by the flood.

Whats that got to do with the torah?

 

[manichunter]

Whats that got to do with the torah?[/quote]

Has God always given man a rule to live by from Adam to the apostle Paul. If a rule has been applied to man from God. It is divine "Torah".

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Whats that got to do with the torah?

Has God always given man a rule to live by from Adam to the apostle Paul. If a rule has been applied to man from God. It is divine "Torah".

Ahhh, I gotccha. Yes, God has always given man a rule to live by.

 

[arthur56k]

the new testament talks about conscience, Paul i think it was.

and in as much as there nay have been no written law back then, people had a conscience, and it was a guide as to what was right and what was wrong. they did not have as much as we had today, but they had something.

and then the Lord has numerously said it in the old testament through various prophets that should the nation Israel repent, he would take them back into his fold.

when he talked to Ezekiel, he on various occasions said that if a good man starts to sin, he will and may be asking for the wrath of God, but if a sinner turns away from his sins, repents and turns to the Lord, he would be readily accepted back.

that in my opinion proves that grace was always there, and that the love of God for human kind immense. its a pity that we sometimes forget, or choose to ignore his way that is best for us

 

[Catholic Crusader]

I think the only difference between pre-Jesus times and post-Jesus times is:

pre-Jesus: Heaven had not been opened (the righteous went to Abrahams bosom)
post-Jesus: Heaven has been opened

pre-Jesus: Blood sacrafice was needed to forguve sin
post-Jesus: No more blood sacrafice is needed

pre-Jesus: Divine Revelation was still being revealed
post-Jesus: No more revelation: Jesus was the final "word"

But, other than all that, we still must obey, and saving grace has always been available

.

 

[brakelite2]

Ex 34:5 ¶ And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.
6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,


This is God's name. Gracious. It is a reflection of His character. He for all eternity has been a God of grace, just as He as always been a God of love.
The law also is a reflection of the character and nature of God. Just as God does not change, nor does His laws.
Earthly governments when taking office change the laws to suit and reflect the unique character of the new government. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Because His character cannot change, nor can His laws. Grace does not alter the law, it does not do away with it, it does not lessen it's binding nature one iota. For that reason we need grace. Even perfect obedience to the law till the day we die would not lessen our need of grace. We all have transgressed the law, we all have sinned. Sin is the transgression against the law.
Yet shall we sin because we are under grace? God forbid!!!
Grace will always be needed because the demands of the law will always be binding. Does that make God unjust? Perpetuating a law that in our own strength cannot be kept? No. Because grace makes provision for obedience. It is not just forgiveness that grace provides, but power to obey.
If we do not make ourselves available to the Holy Spirit that He may work in us God's righteousness, then sin lies at the door. But by recieving Christ's righteousness as a gift of grace, we are then doers of the law and not hearers only.
We are justified by grace. The blood of Christ cleaneses us and we are accepted by the Father no less than He accepts His own Son. It is as if we had never sinned.
We are sanctified by grace. We are given the righteousness of Christ that empowers us to keep that very law which heretofore we could not keep.

 

[BobRyan]

Was "Grace" operating before the first covenant and within the first covenant?

I believe God changes not. Grace has always been avaliable from God for a person to appeal to for repentance, forgiveness, and restoration.

Why was Adam and Eve spared immediate death? Why was Abraham allowed to go forth out of Egypt? Why was Moses spared after striking the rock? Why was David not stoned for his murder and adultery?

I believe it was God's grace that had not yet been fully manifested to all man except those who appealed to what was already avaliable. Grace has always been avaliable for a person who loves God, is repentive of sin, and desires to please God in what they do.

Although I agree grace is and has been available even to Adam and Eve that would seem to refute it is something appealed to rather it is something we receive. Adam and Eve before the fall had no need to appeal to anything so their could be no reason for grace in that system of belief. The orthodox (not capitol O as in the church) view has always been we receive grace which Adam and Eve did before the fall and we do after.

I agree that Adam and Eve had no sin -- nothing in their nature alienated them in any way from God.

But at the fall grace was needed - and grace abounded.

in Christ,

Bob