What 'ALL THINGS' did Jesus Create?

[Asyncritus]

"All things were made by him" (John 1 :3)

There is very severe restriction on the meaning of ‘all things’ in this verse. The Lord describes Himself thus:

“ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD;†(Revelation 3:14 AV)

He Himself is therefore excluded from the ‘all things’, and so is the Father.

Note the implications of the emboldened phrase:

1 Creation demands that there be a Creator.

2 Therefore, God created Jesus. Therefore there can be no further nonsense about His being ‘uncreated’.

3 He, Jesus, is the Beginning, He is Number One in the New Creation – but the Creator Himself exceeds Him. Therefore there can be no question of ‘equality’ or ‘identity’ with the Creator. (“It is manifest that He is excepted which did put all things under him…..THEN SHALL THE SON ALSO HIMSELF BE SUBJECT TO HIM that put all things under him†1 Cor.15 28)

As Adam was once the Beginning, and the Head, or Number One of the Old Creation, (“Let them have dominion…â€) having been given this position by God, and therefore being inferior to God, so it is now.


ThThe Lord Jesus is the last Adam, He is the Beginning, and the Head of the New Creation. God has raised Him from the dead, super-exalted Him, and given him the name that is above every name….to the glory of God the Father.

Therefore, to say that this passage (vv1 –4) is referring to the Old Creation i.e. to Genesis 1, completely destroys the reason for its existence.

Jesus is not the Head of the Old Creation – Adam was. Adam dwelt in darkness. Jesus is the Light of the World – in the New Creation.

he The Old Creation became covered in ‘darkness’ into which Christ, the true Light of the New Creation, was to come.

Note that this is another powerful contextual link with the rest of John 1, which is all about the entry of Jesus on to the stage of the Jewish world.

‘All things’ cannot refer to every single thing that was created, because we then have a nonsensical statement: If Jesus created every single thing, then He created Himself, and the Father too, along with everything else: a clear nonsense.

Digression

Paul gives the identifying parameters of the ‘all things’
in this passage. He leaves no room for doubt about what he means, because as soon as he uses a term, he explains it in the next breath.

“ And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.†(Colossians 1:18 AV)

HE is:

Q. Who is? A: Jesus

the HEAD :
Q. Head of what? A. The body, which is the church.

the BEGINNING:

Q. The Beginning of what? A. The beginning of the church’s procession out of the grave, hence, 'the firstborn from the dead'.

ALL THINGS:

Q. Which ‘all things’?

A. The church. In which He has the pre-eminence. The Head of anything has the pre-eminence in it.

 

[Asyncritus]

“ FOR IN HIM (en autw) WERE ALL THINGS CREATED, THAT ARE IN HEAVEN,

Q. What is in heaven?

A. A. The Church – He has made us to sit together with him ‘in the heavenly places’ in Christ ( as it says in Eph.1: 3).

That this cannot possibly be everything that is literally in heaven, is clear from the fact the God is in heaven and cannot conceivably be included in this group. Therefore this means certain things that are, spiritually speaking, in heaven.

As additional support for the IN HIM translation I advocate in line with the RV, here is some evidence which clinches that rendering:

[FONT=&quot]Col[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 1:19 [/FONT]oti en autw eudokhsen pan to plhrwma katoikhsai
[FONT=&quot]Col[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 1:19 For it pleased the Father that [/FONT][FONT=&quot]in[/FONT][FONT=&quot]him[/FONT][FONT=&quot] should all fulness dwell;[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Col[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 2:6 [/FONT]wv oun parelabete ton criston ihsoun ton kurion en autw peripateite
[FONT=&quot]Col[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye [/FONT][FONT=&quot]in[/FONT][FONT=&quot]him[/FONT][FONT=&quot]:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Col[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 2:7 [/FONT]errizwmenoi kai epoikodomoumenoi en autw kai bebaioumenoi en th pistei kaywv edidacyhte perisseuontev en auth en eucaristia
[FONT=&quot]Col[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 2:7 Rooted and built up [/FONT][FONT=&quot]in[/FONT][FONT=&quot]him[/FONT][FONT=&quot], and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Col[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 2:9 [/FONT]oti en autw katoikei pan to plhrwma thv yeothtov swmatikwv
[FONT=&quot]Col[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 2:9 For [/FONT][FONT=&quot]in[/FONT][FONT=&quot]him[/FONT][FONT=&quot] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Col[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 2:10 [/FONT]kai este en autw peplhrwmenoi ov estin h kefalh pashv archv kai exousiav
[FONT=&quot]Col[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 2:10 And ye are complete [/FONT][FONT=&quot]in[/FONT][FONT=&quot]him[/FONT][FONT=&quot], which is the head of all principality and power:[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]16 [/FONT]oti en autw ektisyh ta panta ta en toiv ouranoiv kai ta epi thv ghv ta orata kai ta aorata eite yronoi eite kuriothtev eite arcai eite exousiai ta panta di autou kai eiv auton ektistai

[FONT=&quot]16 For [/FONT][FONT=&quot]by Him [/FONT][FONT=&quot]all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.[/FONT]

Revised Version, American Standard Version:

16: for IN HIM were all things created.

There is, as you can see, plenty of support in Colossians itself, for the IN HIM rendering, which places a completely different light on the understanding of the verse.

 

[Asyncritus]

[FONT=&quot]AND THAT ARE IN [/FONT][FONT=&quot](GK.ON) EARTH,

Q. What is on the earth that is created in Him? [/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]A. The living saints.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]That this cannot possibly mean the whole planet is clear from the fact that there are huge evils in the earth, and mighty evildoers.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]The Lord Jesus certainly did not create these. He is going to destroy them. Therefore this means certain things that are, spiritually speaking, on earth. The saints.VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]i.e. living (visible) or dead (invisible because they are under the earth or in the sea which is to give up her dead). Not gases or microbes.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]WHETHER THEY BE[/FONT][FONT=&quot] believers who sit on THRONES, or believers who rule DOMINIONS, or believers who are princes and therefore rule PRINCIPALITIES, or believers who wield high political or civil POWERS:
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ALL THINGS[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (i.e. all these believers) WERE CREATED BY HIM [we are created in Christ Jesus Eph.2 : 4,5] – we are new creations {2 Cor. 5.17) , AND we FOR HIM:”[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]It is very noticeable that he does not include worms, fish and the mountains, for example. To take the words literally is to make nonsense of them: Christ did not create chairs (thrones), for instance. This refers to the people who sit on the thrones who were ‘created by Christ’[/FONT]

 

[Asyncritus]

"IN HIM"

It is highly important to observe that ‘all things’ were created IN HIM.

This completely removes the whole verse from the physical realm, and identifies the ALL THINGS as people who are IN CHRIST. “If any man be IN CHRIST he is a new CREATION.” [FONT=&quot]

How do you get INTO CHRIST? BY BELIEVING ON HIM AND BEING BAPTISED.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] 'As many as have been baptised into Christ, have put on Christ' (Rom 6).

It is not too difficult, then, to follow the apostle’s thinking – the sum total of all the believers in Christ is a New World, with a new Sun of Righteousness, with new stars in the firmament, (Dan 12.3) with new fruit being produced (Col.1 is very strong on this particular description) – a whole New Creation, in other words.[/FONT]

 

[reba]

Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

 

[Free]

He Himself is therefore excluded from the ‘all things’, and so is the Father.

Your arguments here are entirely false as you have made several false assumptions. I will not debate this issue but I would like clarification on the above.

If the Father is excluded from "all things," then it follows that the Father is created. Is this what you are saying?

 

[Elijah674]

Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Eternal! & the Godhead only with Immortality, finds which one being created??

 

[savedbygrace57]

Christ in His Mediator Character was created or setup before the world began[Prov 8:22-23], but that is not the case in His Characted as the Logos, the Eternal Word Jn 1:1, in this Character He was not created or begotten or setup, but is Just as Self Existing and Eternal as The Father Now John 1:1-4 is speaking of Him combined in His Two Natures, that as God, and that as Mediator. As God, He was the absolute Creator of all things, and As Mediator He was the medium of all things being Created. So in both Characters He is the Creator of All things.

 

[Asyncritus]

Your arguments here are entirely false as you have made several false assumptions. I will not debate this issue but I would like clarification on the above.

If the Father is excluded from "all things," then it follows that the Father is created. Is this what you are saying?

I am saying that if Christ created 'all things' in heaven, literal heaven that is, then He also created the Father - since the Father is also in heaven.

It is, however, axiomatic that the Father WAS NOT CREATED - by Christ or anybody else.

Therefore, the ALL THINGS which Christ created is not a literal 'everything', and 'heaven' is not the literal heaven, but the church which is 'in heavenly places' in Christ..

And that is what I have been saying in these posts.

 

[Free]

I am saying that if Christ created 'all things' in heaven, literal heaven that is, then He also created the Father - since the Father is also in heaven.

It is, however, axiomatic that the Father WAS NOT CREATED - by Christ or anybody else.

Therefore, the ALL THINGS which Christ created is not a literal 'everything', and 'heaven' is not the literal heaven, but the church which is 'in heavenly places' in Christ..

And that is what I have been saying in these posts.

You are yet again begging the question. We agree that God is uncreated. So Christ, as God, can be said to have created everything that has been created, which is precisely what John 1:3 says. There is no need to unnecessarily introduce new concepts and meanings which are foreign to what John is talking about. John's text is plain and clear.

 

[stovebolts]

I am saying that if Christ created 'all things' in heaven, literal heaven that is, then He also created the Father - since the Father is also in heaven.

It is, however, axiomatic that the Father WAS NOT CREATED - by Christ or anybody else.

Therefore, the ALL THINGS which Christ created is not a literal 'everything', and 'heaven' is not the literal heaven, but the church which is 'in heavenly places' in Christ..

And that is what I have been saying in these posts.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

All through Genesis 1 we see this pattern. "And God said, "XYY", and there was "XYZ".

So we see very clearly in scripture, that what was created, was created by God's word.

See the parallel?

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

It's really that simple, even a child can understand this concept... :yes

I guess what I don't understand, is why there are those who go through great academic and intellectual feats to avoid this simple, and obvious truth?

If we want to have some fun with names, then find YHWH in Genesis 1. It's there :yes

 

[handy]

The Father Himself affirms that the Son is the Creator and that the Son is God...easy enough to understand if one accepts the Son as God:

Hebrews 1:8-12 But of the Son He [the Father]says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
“YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.â€
And,
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.â€

 

[stovebolts]

All through Genesis 1 we see this pattern. "And God said, "XYY", and there was "XYZ".

Ooops

Ya all know what I meant ;)

 

[Asyncritus]

You are yet again begging the question. We agree that God is uncreated.

Agreed.

So Christ, as God,

Begging the question.

There is no need to unnecessarily introduce new concepts and meanings which are foreign to what John is talking about. John's text is plain and clear.

It may be a new concept to you, but it certainly wasn't to John.

I think I omitted quoting

i Jn.1.1 ¶ That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, that which we have seen with our eyes, that which we beheld, and our hands handled, concerning the Word of life

2 (and the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare unto you the life, the eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us);

You will note that the direct contextual link with the next 4 clauses is to the beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ: which he has dealt with in Jn 1.

This cannot be the creation of Gen 1, simply because John and the persons he is writing to, weren't there to a.hear b.see with their eyes c. behold and d. handle.

Agreed?

 

[Asyncritus]

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

All through Genesis 1 we see this pattern. "And God said, "XYY", and there was "XYZ".

So we see very clearly in scripture, that what was created, was created by God's word.

See the parallel?

Excellent SB, truly excellent.

Your choice of word is unsurpassable: "PARALLEL".

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

It really is that simple.

There is a great "PARALLEL" being drawn between the Old Creation and the New Creation.

As God is the Author of the Old Creation, so Christ is the Author of the New.

In the beginning of the old creation, the first thing to be created was light, which separated the light from the darkness.

In the beginning of the New Creation, the first thing that happens is the coming of the light of the world, which darkness did not overcome for a moment.

See the "PARALLEL"? That's why it's written like it is.

But I guess that's too simple for minds which can comprehend the mysteries of the trinity.

If you want some more fun, try finding how many times the number 7 occurs in Gen 1.1. :nod

Hint: have a look (if you can find it) at Ivan Panin's book: God Counts. Amazing stuff.

 

[Asyncritus]

The Father Himself affirms that the Son is the Creator and that the Son is God...easy enough to understand if one accepts the Son as God:

Creator of what?

See previous post!

 

[handy]

Creator of what?

See previous post!

What...see your post with the convoluted interpretations meant to explain away the clear teaching of the Scriptures that Jesus is the Creator...rather than just stick with what the Father said the Son "IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS"

ummmmmm Nope. I think I'll stick with the plain meaning of the Scriptures on this one.

 

[Free]

Begging the question.

No, it isn't. I am letting the verses speak for themselves. You are presuming that Jesus isn't God and then introducing meanings into the text which are completely unwarranted.

It may be a new concept to you, but it certainly wasn't to John.

I think I omitted quoting

i Jn.1.1 ¶ That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, that which we have seen with our eyes, that which we beheld, and our hands handled, concerning the Word of life

2 (and the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare unto you the life, the eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us);

You will note that the direct contextual link with the next 4 clauses is to the beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ: which he has dealt with in Jn 1.

This cannot be the creation of Gen 1, simply because John and the persons he is writing to, weren't there to a.hear b.see with their eyes c. behold and d. handle.

Agreed?

No.

 

[Asyncritus]

No, it isn't. I am letting the verses speak for themselves. You are presuming that Jesus isn't God and then introducing meanings into the text which are completely unwarranted.

You ARE begging the question which is: is Christ God?

Your reply: 'Christ as God' therefore begs the question, assuming that it is correct and proceeding from there.

There are no unwarranted meanings in there. You ought to know (and I assume that you do, but are happy to ignore it) the passage in 2 Cor 5.17:

17 Wherefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature: (RV margin, 'creation') the old things are passed away; behold, they are become new.AV

17 So if any man is in Christ, he is in a new world: the old things have come to an end; they have truly become new.BBE

17 therefore, if anyone is united with the Messiah, he is a new creation - the old has passed; look, what has come is fresh and new! CJB

17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.ESV

17 Now we look inside, and what we see is that anyone united with the Messiah gets a fresh start, is created new. The old life is gone; a new life burgeons! Look at it! MSG

So before I go any further, do you agree that there is a NEW CREATION described in the NT?

And that Christ it the beginning of it?

14 ¶ And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

Be very careful here: because till now, my quotes of this verse have only met with 'No, that's not correct'.

Now is the time for you to comment and clarify exactly what that verse means.

 

[Asyncritus]

BTW, I am accusing you of context yanking, if you detach 'the beginning' of 1 Jn 1.1 from the context John has chosen to place it in.

To remind you:

1 ¶ That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, that which we have seen with our eyes, that which we beheld, and our hands handled, concerning the Word of life

Notice the number of 'that's' in there - each one linked inextricably to the one before.