[_ Old Earth _] What animal did salamanders evolve from?

[Dave Slayer]

What animal did salamanders evolve from? What is their common ancestor?

 

[GojuBrian]

Either Ewoks or The Loch Ness Monster, not sure which..?

 

[Crying Rock]

They evolved, unguided, from non-living matter. Specifically, their common ancestor was Caudata Plasticus Maximus:

As you can see, the basic form was already there. All that was needed was:

Information; organs; cells; a nervous system, a cardio/pulmonary system, a digestive system, sensory systems, and several other equally trivial systems.

This can obviously happen, given enough time. I checked. :yes

By the way, this guy's a beauty:

 

[John]

^ Epic win

 

[Dave Slayer]

They evolved, unguided, from non-living matter.

So life evolved from non-life?

 

[John]

That is Abiogenesis. Evolution supposedly took place afterward.

 

[Crying Rock]

^ Epic win

 

[Barbarian]

So life evolved from non-life?

According to God it did. Scientists are just now, starting to figure out how.

The evolution of salamanders occurred about the time Pangea broke up. It initially cracked into two separate supercontinents, Laurasia and Gondwona. They evolved in the northern one, and so salamanders are entirely found in continents of old Larasia, except for a few introduced species elsewhere.

Nature. 2003 Mar 27;422(6930):424-8
Earliest known crown-group salamanders.
Gao KQ, Shubin NH.

School of Earth and Space Sciences, Peking University, Beijing 100871, China.

Salamanders are a model system for studying the rates and patterns of the evolution of new anatomical structures. Recent discoveries of abundant Late Jurassic and Early Cretaceous salamanders are helping to address these issues. Here we report the discovery of well-preserved Middle Jurassic salamanders from China, which constitutes the earliest known record of crown-group urodeles (living salamanders and their closest relatives). The new specimens are from the volcanic deposits of the Jiulongshan Formation (Bathonian), Inner Mongolia, China, and represent basal members of the Cryptobranchidae, a family that includes the endangered Asian giant salamander (Andrias) and the North American hellbender (Cryptobranchus). These fossils document a Mesozoic record of the Cryptobranchidae, predating the previous record of the group by some 100 million years. This discovery provides evidence to support the hypothesis that the divergence of the Cryptobranchidae from the Hynobiidae had taken place in Asia before the Middle Jurassic period.


Although paleogeography and geology have greatly aided the understanding of salamander evolution, there are still a few questions remaining...

"I think our research has produced a hypothesis that resolves one major puzzle -- how the large-scale geologic changes on the Asian continent over millions of years have led to the evolution of new salamander species," Wake said. "But there's another puzzle we haven't solved: All those salamanders have only four toes on their feet, while the salamanders of Europe and the Americas all have five. And none of us can think of any reason why four toes would make a salamander species better adapted for survival than five.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... IUC1C1.DTL

The DNA evidence shows that anurans (frogs and toads) are more closely related to salamanders than either are to other amphibians. This was recently supported by the discovery of Triadobatrachus, which is transitional between anurans and salamanders.

It seems most likely that all the modern amphibians, the Lissamphibia, evolved from leptospondyl amphibians, but that is not yet settled.

 

[Crying Rock]

So life evolved from non-life?

According to God it did.

So God says he is not alive? :gah

How does something dead say He's not alive?

You've lost me.

 

[Barbarian]

(Barbarian points out that Genesis says life came from non-living matter)

So God says he is not alive?

Don't see how you got there from that. God says that life was brought forth from the earth.

You've lost me.

Read Genesis.

 

[Crying Rock]

Don't see how you got there from that. God says that life was brought forth from the earth.

By whom? :gah A living entity? Who made the earth? :gah A living entity?

 

[Barbarian]

By whom? :gah A living entity? Who made the earth? :gah A living entity?

The earth is not a living entity. God used nature to produce life. He does most things that way in this world. No less amazing, if you think about it. St. Augustine remarked how people are stunned by the idea of walking on water, but don't give a second thought to a baby being born.

Nature is itself a miracle. Once you're willing to let God do it His way, it's just as uplifting as if he had poofed things into existence.

 

[Crying Rock]

God used nature to produce life.

So God created life, from nature, which he also created.

Sounds like creation ex nilo.

Big deal. Well, it actually is.

 

[Dave Slayer]

Can pine cones evolve into bumble bees?

 

[Barbarian]

So God created life, from nature, which he also created.

Sounds like creation ex nilo.

Ex nihilo? No. It means creation from nothing. God says that life was not created ex nihilo, but rather was brought forth by pre-existing creation.

"Life ex nihilo" is the most glaring rejection of God's word by YE creationism.

 

[Dave Slayer]

God says that life was not created ex nihilo, but rather was brought forth by pre-existing creation.

But the pre-exisiting creation would have had to start from somewhere, it had to have had a beginning. There had to have been a first life-form. Where did that come from? Certainly the first ever life-form didn't come from another life-form.

 

[Barbarian]

Barbarian notes that YE creationism is directly contradicted by Genesis:
God says that life was not created ex nihilo, but rather was brought forth by pre-existing creation.

But the pre-exisiting creation would have had to start from somewhere, it had to have had a beginning.

Christians acknowledge the universe was created ex nihilo. Where YE creationism departs from Christianity is in claiming life was also created ex nihilo. As you see, that is not what God says.

There had to have been a first life-form. Where did that come from? Certainly the first ever life-form didn't come from another life-form.

Check Genesis. God says the earth brought forth living things.

 

[Crying Rock]

but rather was brought forth by pre-existing creation

.

Whose preexisting creation?

Does God have a God?

 

[Barbarian]

(Barbarian observes that Genesis rules out YE creationism, since it rules out "life ex nihilo")

Life was not created ex nihilo but rather brought forth by God's pre-existing creation.

Whose preexisting creation?

See above. He didn't create life ex nihilo. He created nature, and used nature to produce life. He does most things that way in this world.

Does God have a God?

Is this one of those atheist things about "who created God?"

 

[Crying Rock]

(Barbarian observes that Genesis rules out YE creationism, since it rules out "life ex nihilo")

Life was not created ex nihilo but rather brought forth by God's pre-existing creation.

Whose preexisting creation?

See above. He didn't create life ex nihilo. He created nature, and used nature to produce life. He does most things that way in this world.

[quote:1yw1lstt]Does God have a God?

Is this one of those atheist things about "who created God?"[/quote:1yw1lstt]



Like "Who Made Who" by AC/DC?

No.

Just trying understand you.

Sounds like you believe God is ultimately behind life.

If so, then we're on the same page.

Your "pre-existing creation" phrase threw me.

If your "pre-existing creation" was created by God, then I agree:

Genesis 1:9-10

9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?bo ... version=31

Genesis 2:7

the LORD God formed the man [e] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?bo ... version=31