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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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What are the Nephlim?
- Thread starter KenEOTE
- Start date
A
anna-Rose
Guest
greetings in the Savouirs Name
the nephalim were a race of giants in the old testiment -
it has been said that golioth was one of the last
check out a minister by the name of Geoff thomas he is on sermonaudio.com or you can find his series on genesis on the alfred place web page.
every blessing
psalm 34
a-R
the nephalim were a race of giants in the old testiment -
it has been said that golioth was one of the last
check out a minister by the name of Geoff thomas he is on sermonaudio.com or you can find his series on genesis on the alfred place web page.
every blessing
psalm 34
a-R
lovely
Member
My husband believes that the first Nephilim mentioned, prior to the flood, were children of fallen angels who were with women here....teaching humans about war, about weapons, and mystic and evil things, and corrupting the race very quickly.
I think the definition of Giant is accurate generally speaking. This first angel/human race would have died in the flood, though, but you hear it again to refer to giants elsewhere in Scripture.
Jude mentions fallen angels who did not stay in their abode (some say he was quoting Enoch)...I forget the verse. The book of Enoch indicates this too, but I don't trust the book.
I am still trying to figure it out...I don't know who the first one's war.
The Lord bless you.
I think the definition of Giant is accurate generally speaking. This first angel/human race would have died in the flood, though, but you hear it again to refer to giants elsewhere in Scripture.
Jude mentions fallen angels who did not stay in their abode (some say he was quoting Enoch)...I forget the verse. The book of Enoch indicates this too, but I don't trust the book.
I am still trying to figure it out...I don't know who the first one's war.
The Lord bless you.
P
Paidion
Guest
The word "Nephilim" comes from the word "naphal", meaning "to fall". I understand that the official Rabbinical explanation, as well as that of many of the second-century Christians was that the the Nephilim were the offspring of fallen angels who took human wives.
All other references to "giants" in the Old Testament use the word "Raphah" with the exception of its use by those who brought an "evil report" concerning the land of Caanan.
But Caleb quieted the people before Moses, and said, "Let us go up at once and occupy it, for we are well able to overcome it."
Then the men who had gone up with him said, "We are not able to go up against this people, for they are stronger than we."
So they brought to the Israelites an unfavorable report of the land that they had spied out, saying, "The land that we have gone through as spies is a land that devours its inhabitants; and all the people that we saw in it are of great size. There we saw the Nephilim (the Anakites come from the Nephilim); and to ourselves we seemed like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them." Numbers 13:30-33
These spies said that they saw Nephilim. That doesn't mean that they did, in fact, see Nephilim. Presumably the Nephilim were destroyed in the flood. True the parenthetical sentence states that the Anakites were descended from the Nephilim. However, it seems that that sentence was added at a later time. For it does not appear in the Greek Septuagint translation made several hundred years before Christ. Unfortunately, verse 33 is missing from the Dead Sea Scrolls manuscript of Numbers, and so it cannot be verified from the Scrolls that the parenthetical sentence was not in the original.
All other references to "giants" in the Old Testament use the word "Raphah" with the exception of its use by those who brought an "evil report" concerning the land of Caanan.
But Caleb quieted the people before Moses, and said, "Let us go up at once and occupy it, for we are well able to overcome it."
Then the men who had gone up with him said, "We are not able to go up against this people, for they are stronger than we."
So they brought to the Israelites an unfavorable report of the land that they had spied out, saying, "The land that we have gone through as spies is a land that devours its inhabitants; and all the people that we saw in it are of great size. There we saw the Nephilim (the Anakites come from the Nephilim); and to ourselves we seemed like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them." Numbers 13:30-33
These spies said that they saw Nephilim. That doesn't mean that they did, in fact, see Nephilim. Presumably the Nephilim were destroyed in the flood. True the parenthetical sentence states that the Anakites were descended from the Nephilim. However, it seems that that sentence was added at a later time. For it does not appear in the Greek Septuagint translation made several hundred years before Christ. Unfortunately, verse 33 is missing from the Dead Sea Scrolls manuscript of Numbers, and so it cannot be verified from the Scrolls that the parenthetical sentence was not in the original.
freeway
Member
KenEOTE said:
I've read quite alot about this subject and truth is I really don't know anymore for sure than when I started. Sure, can tell about how they supposed to have come about. As the few poster above have said, fallen angels that had relations with humans. But the truth is I don't really know, but it is fascinating stuff though. 8-)
Paidion said:
I've yet to thoroughly check your technical claims about the witnesses of the LXX and DSS, but I see no reason to doubt you on this point. However, you don't need to assume that the Israelites were mistaken in their identification of the Nephilim and it's not implied in the narrative. Genesis vi, clears up the confusion. The parenthetical statement 'the Nephilim were on the earth in those days (and also after that)' indicates that they were breeded again after the flood by another union of the 'sons of god' (divine beings) and the 'daughters of men'.
Thanks,
Eric
B
BobRyan
Guest
As R.C Sproul points out there is no support in the Bible for the idea of Angels engaged in breeding at all - much less inter-species breeding.
1. In Matt 22 Jesus states clearly that angels do not form family units not even with themsevles much less with other species!
2. The people of God on earth are called "the sons of God" -- this is true in both OT and NT. John 1 "To as many as received HIm to THEM he gave the right to be called the sons of God"
3. The text says that people living before the flood lived for long ages -- over 900 years and were giants. We see that they continued to live for over 500 years after the flood and gradually declined to the 200's with Abraham and Jacob and Moses all dying in their 100's.
4. The Giants - Niphilim decribed both proir to the flood and after the flood are never connected with angels.
When the "sons of God" married the "daughters of men" in Gen 6 we see the flood is then called for -- as Christ said "You are the salt of the earth -- if the salt has lost its savor..." etc
In the case of Sodom and Gomorrah God says that for 10 rigtheous people he would spare the city. Only 8 get in the ark. The "unnequally yoked" problem of marriage with unbelievers lead to the apostacy of the saints pre-flood and apostacy in Israel post flood.
My have also caused Esau's downfall.
in Christ,
Bob
1. In Matt 22 Jesus states clearly that angels do not form family units not even with themsevles much less with other species!
2. The people of God on earth are called "the sons of God" -- this is true in both OT and NT. John 1 "To as many as received HIm to THEM he gave the right to be called the sons of God"
3. The text says that people living before the flood lived for long ages -- over 900 years and were giants. We see that they continued to live for over 500 years after the flood and gradually declined to the 200's with Abraham and Jacob and Moses all dying in their 100's.
4. The Giants - Niphilim decribed both proir to the flood and after the flood are never connected with angels.
When the "sons of God" married the "daughters of men" in Gen 6 we see the flood is then called for -- as Christ said "You are the salt of the earth -- if the salt has lost its savor..." etc
In the case of Sodom and Gomorrah God says that for 10 rigtheous people he would spare the city. Only 8 get in the ark. The "unnequally yoked" problem of marriage with unbelievers lead to the apostacy of the saints pre-flood and apostacy in Israel post flood.
My have also caused Esau's downfall.
in Christ,
Bob
B
BobRyan
Guest
We know Goliath was one and that he was very large. Which means Noah and family must also have been Nephelim since we know that Gen 6 says they lived before the flood.
We also know from Matt 22 that Angels do not enter family relationships with each other -- much less go around breeding with other species.
We also know that the Bible refers to the people of God as the "Sons of God" as we see in Both OT and NT in places like John 1.
We know the Bible forbids the people of God from being unnequally yoked with unbelievers.
We know that shortly after some compromise of the marriage kind began between the sons of God and the daughters of men -- the preflood world was destroyed.
We also know that the Bible does not say the "Nephelim did not exist until cross-marriage problem began".
......................
Those things we have from the Bible... How much farther you take them -- is left as an exercise for the reader.
in Christ,
Bob
We also know from Matt 22 that Angels do not enter family relationships with each other -- much less go around breeding with other species.
We also know that the Bible refers to the people of God as the "Sons of God" as we see in Both OT and NT in places like John 1.
We know the Bible forbids the people of God from being unnequally yoked with unbelievers.
We know that shortly after some compromise of the marriage kind began between the sons of God and the daughters of men -- the preflood world was destroyed.
We also know that the Bible does not say the "Nephelim did not exist until cross-marriage problem began".
......................
Those things we have from the Bible... How much farther you take them -- is left as an exercise for the reader.
in Christ,
Bob
The Hebrew word Nephilim means "fellers; those who cause [others] to fall down" and evidently stems from the causative form of the Hebrew na·phal´ (fall) as found, for example, in 2 Kings 3:19 ("every good tree you should fell"); 19:7("I shall certainly cause him to fall "). At Genesis 25:18, the Hebrew word na·phal´ is used, and is rendered as "settled down", with the literal rendition of the latter part of the scripture as being "on faces of all of brothers of him he fell" (online interlinear Scripture4all ), that is Ishmael, Abraham's son, "in front of his brothers he settled down (na·phal )", not "died" in verse 18 as the King James Bible reads (verse 17 says that Ishmael had died).
The Bible account describes God's displeasure with men in the days of Noah before the global flood, and relates that "the sons of the true God" took for themselves wives from among the attractive daughters of men. It now mentions the presence of "Nephilim", saying: "The Nephilim proved to be in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of the true God continued to have relations with the daughters of men and they bore sons to them, they were the mighty ones (Hebrew hag·gib·bo·rim´) who were of old, the men of fame."(Gen 6:1-4)
Certain Bible translations adjust the location of the phrase “and also after that,†placing it near the beginning of verse 4, thus identifying the Nephilim with the “mighty ones,†the gib·bo·rim´, mentioned in the latter part of the verse. For example: “In those days, as well as afterward, there were giants [Hebrew, han·nephi·lim´] on the earth, who were born to the sons of the gods whenever they had intercourse with the daughters of men; these were the heroes [Hebrew, hag·gib·bo·rim´] who were men of note in days of old.â€Â(Gen 6:4, An American Translation; see also Moffett, New International Version, and Today's English Version)
The Greek Septuagint also suggests that both the “Nephilim†and “mighty ones†are identical by using the same word gi´gan·tes (giants) to translate both expressions. Reviewing the account, verses 1 to 3 tell of “the sons of the true God†taking wives and of God’s statement that he was going to end his patience with men after 120 years. Verse 4 then speaks of the Nephilim proving to be in the earth “in those days,†evidently the days when God made the statement. Then it shows that this situation continued “after that, when the sons of the true God continued to have relations with the daughters of men,†and describes in more detail the results of the union of “the sons of the true God†with women.
Who were “the sons of the true God†that were involved? Were they men who were worshipers of God (as distinguished from the general run of wicked mankind), as some claim? Evidently not. The Bible implies that their marriage to the daughters of men resulted in whipping up the badness in the earth. Noah and his three sons, along with their wives, were the only ones in God’s favor and were the only ones preserved through the Deluge.(Gen 6:9; 8:15, 16; 1Pet 3:20)
Hence, if these “sons of the true God†were merely men, the question arises, Why were their offspring “men of fame†more than those of the wicked, or of faithful Noah? Also, the question might be asked, Why mention their marriage to the daughters of men as something special? Marriage and childbearing had been taking place for more than 1,500 years.
The sons of God mentioned at Genesis 6:2, therefore, must have been angels, spirit “sons of God.†This expression is applied to angels at Job 1:6; 38:7. This view is supported by Peter, who speaks of “the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days.†(1Pet 3:19, 20) Also Jude writes of “the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place.†(Jude 6) Angels had the power to materialize in human form, and some angels did so to bring messages from God. (Gen 18:1, 2, 8, 20-22; 19:1-11; Jos 5:13-15) But heaven is the proper abode of spirit persons, and the angels there have positions of service under God. (Dan 7:9, 10) To leave this abode to dwell on earth and to forsake their assigned service to have fleshly relations would be rebellion against God’s laws, and perversion.
The Bible states that the disobedient angels are now “spirits in prison,†having been ‘thrown into Tartarus’ and “reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.†This seems to indicate that they are greatly restricted, unable again to materialize as they did prior to the Flood.(1Pet 3:19; 2Pet 2:4; Jude 6)
“The mighty ones who were of old, the men of fame†that were produced by these marriages, were not men of fame with God, for they did not survive the Flood, as did Noah and his family. They were “Nephilim,†bullies, tyrants, who no doubt helped to make conditions worse. Their angelic fathers, knowing the construction of the human body and being able to materialize, were not creating life, but lived in these human bodies and, cohabiting with women, brought forth children. Their children, “mighty ones,†were therefore unauthorized hybrids. Apparently the Nephilim did not, in turn, have children.
The ten spies who brought back to the Israelites in the wilderness a false report on the land of Canaan declared: “All the people whom we saw in the midst of it are men of extraordinary size. And there we saw the Nephilim, the sons of Anak, who are from the Neplim; so that we became in our own eyes like grasshoppers, and the same way we became in their eyes.†No doubt there were some large men in Canaan, as other scriptures show, but never except in this “bad report,†which was carefully couched in language designed to strike terror and cause panic among the Israelites, are they called Nephilim.(Num 13:31-33; 14:36, 37)
(source of information - Insight on the Scriptures)
The Bible account describes God's displeasure with men in the days of Noah before the global flood, and relates that "the sons of the true God" took for themselves wives from among the attractive daughters of men. It now mentions the presence of "Nephilim", saying: "The Nephilim proved to be in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of the true God continued to have relations with the daughters of men and they bore sons to them, they were the mighty ones (Hebrew hag·gib·bo·rim´) who were of old, the men of fame."(Gen 6:1-4)
Certain Bible translations adjust the location of the phrase “and also after that,†placing it near the beginning of verse 4, thus identifying the Nephilim with the “mighty ones,†the gib·bo·rim´, mentioned in the latter part of the verse. For example: “In those days, as well as afterward, there were giants [Hebrew, han·nephi·lim´] on the earth, who were born to the sons of the gods whenever they had intercourse with the daughters of men; these were the heroes [Hebrew, hag·gib·bo·rim´] who were men of note in days of old.â€Â(Gen 6:4, An American Translation; see also Moffett, New International Version, and Today's English Version)
The Greek Septuagint also suggests that both the “Nephilim†and “mighty ones†are identical by using the same word gi´gan·tes (giants) to translate both expressions. Reviewing the account, verses 1 to 3 tell of “the sons of the true God†taking wives and of God’s statement that he was going to end his patience with men after 120 years. Verse 4 then speaks of the Nephilim proving to be in the earth “in those days,†evidently the days when God made the statement. Then it shows that this situation continued “after that, when the sons of the true God continued to have relations with the daughters of men,†and describes in more detail the results of the union of “the sons of the true God†with women.
Who were “the sons of the true God†that were involved? Were they men who were worshipers of God (as distinguished from the general run of wicked mankind), as some claim? Evidently not. The Bible implies that their marriage to the daughters of men resulted in whipping up the badness in the earth. Noah and his three sons, along with their wives, were the only ones in God’s favor and were the only ones preserved through the Deluge.(Gen 6:9; 8:15, 16; 1Pet 3:20)
Hence, if these “sons of the true God†were merely men, the question arises, Why were their offspring “men of fame†more than those of the wicked, or of faithful Noah? Also, the question might be asked, Why mention their marriage to the daughters of men as something special? Marriage and childbearing had been taking place for more than 1,500 years.
The sons of God mentioned at Genesis 6:2, therefore, must have been angels, spirit “sons of God.†This expression is applied to angels at Job 1:6; 38:7. This view is supported by Peter, who speaks of “the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days.†(1Pet 3:19, 20) Also Jude writes of “the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place.†(Jude 6) Angels had the power to materialize in human form, and some angels did so to bring messages from God. (Gen 18:1, 2, 8, 20-22; 19:1-11; Jos 5:13-15) But heaven is the proper abode of spirit persons, and the angels there have positions of service under God. (Dan 7:9, 10) To leave this abode to dwell on earth and to forsake their assigned service to have fleshly relations would be rebellion against God’s laws, and perversion.
The Bible states that the disobedient angels are now “spirits in prison,†having been ‘thrown into Tartarus’ and “reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.†This seems to indicate that they are greatly restricted, unable again to materialize as they did prior to the Flood.(1Pet 3:19; 2Pet 2:4; Jude 6)
“The mighty ones who were of old, the men of fame†that were produced by these marriages, were not men of fame with God, for they did not survive the Flood, as did Noah and his family. They were “Nephilim,†bullies, tyrants, who no doubt helped to make conditions worse. Their angelic fathers, knowing the construction of the human body and being able to materialize, were not creating life, but lived in these human bodies and, cohabiting with women, brought forth children. Their children, “mighty ones,†were therefore unauthorized hybrids. Apparently the Nephilim did not, in turn, have children.
The ten spies who brought back to the Israelites in the wilderness a false report on the land of Canaan declared: “All the people whom we saw in the midst of it are men of extraordinary size. And there we saw the Nephilim, the sons of Anak, who are from the Neplim; so that we became in our own eyes like grasshoppers, and the same way we became in their eyes.†No doubt there were some large men in Canaan, as other scriptures show, but never except in this “bad report,†which was carefully couched in language designed to strike terror and cause panic among the Israelites, are they called Nephilim.(Num 13:31-33; 14:36, 37)
(source of information - Insight on the Scriptures)
P
Paidion
Guest
I don't think we know that he was one of the nephilim. He was a large man, but in my opinion, not a 9-foot giant. Now we know that the Masoretic text, from which our Old Testaments were translated, states that he was:
1 Samuel 17:4 And there came out from the camp of the Philistines a champion named Goliath of Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span.
A cubit is about a foot and a half; a span is about 4 inches. So the Masoretic text would indicate Goliath to be about 9 ft. 4 in. tall! A veritable giant indeed!
Wikipedia states:
The oldest manuscripts containing substantial parts of the Masoretic Text known to still exist date from approximately the ninth century CE, and the Aleppo Codex (the oldest complete copy of the Masoretic Text in one manuscript) dates from the tenth century.
On the other hand, the Septuagint, a translation from the Hebrew to Greek some time in the third to second century B.C. states I Samuel 17:4 in this way (English Translation):
And there went forth a mighty man out of the army of the Philistines, Goliath, by name, out of Geth, his height was four cubits and a span.
So according to the Septuagint, Goliath was about 6 ft. 4 in. tall. That's tall all right, but we sometimes see men that tall even in our own day.
The Dead Sea Scrolls manuscript of Samuel (a single book in those days) of the passage in question also has Goliath's height as four cubits and a span.
According to The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible, translated and with commentary by Marten Abegg Jr., Peter Flint, and Eugene Ulrich, 1999:
Most scholars agree that the group who lived at Qumran site from about 150 BCE to 68 CE was a strict branch of the Essenes.
These were the people who made these early Hebrew copies of Samuel manuscript. So this together with the Septuagint, both of which render Goliath's height as "four cubits and a span" provide very good evidence that this was indeed his height --- that is, about 6 ft. 4 in.
n2thelight
Member
The Nephilim were the offspring of the sons of God and the daughters of men,as described in Gen.6
B
BobRyan
Guest
1. Matthew 5:9
Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God.
2. Luke 20:36
nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
3. Romans 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
4. Romans 8:19
For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.
5. Galatians 3:26For you are all sons of God through faith
6. 1 John 3 (KJV)
1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
7. Philippians 2:15
That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
8. 1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
As Christ points out in Matt 22 - the angels are not created as beings that can form family bonds EVEN with each other - much less with other species!
in Christ,
Bob
Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God.
2. Luke 20:36
nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
3. Romans 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
4. Romans 8:19
For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.
5. Galatians 3:26For you are all sons of God through faith
6. 1 John 3 (KJV)
1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
7. Philippians 2:15
That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
8. 1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
As Christ points out in Matt 22 - the angels are not created as beings that can form family bonds EVEN with each other - much less with other species!
in Christ,
Bob
B
BobRyan
Guest
Bible scholars agree that Goliath was about nine feet tall, was mentioned as Nephelim showing clearly that the giants on earth before the flood were real - were the race of men living then and that Noah was also Nephelim since Goliath descends from Noah's family about 1500 years after the flood.
1 Sam 17:4
4Then a champion came out from the armies of the Philistines named Goliath, from Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span.
Bible scholars agree that A cubit is 18 inches. Six cubits is 9 feet.
Also we see that in Christ's statement "ye are the salt of the earth" the sons of God living before the flood - were indeed "the salt of the earth" but when they corrupted themselves by inter-marriage (be ye not unnequally yoked) just as Israel did -- the world was left in darkness - and the end of the world came.
in Christ,
Bob
1 Sam 17:4
4Then a champion came out from the armies of the Philistines named Goliath, from Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span.
Bible scholars agree that A cubit is 18 inches. Six cubits is 9 feet.
Also we see that in Christ's statement "ye are the salt of the earth" the sons of God living before the flood - were indeed "the salt of the earth" but when they corrupted themselves by inter-marriage (be ye not unnequally yoked) just as Israel did -- the world was left in darkness - and the end of the world came.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan said:
R.C. Sproul is correct. The 'sons of God' <בני (×â€)×Âל×â€Ã—™×Â> refers to a pantheon of divine beings (i.e., gods, not mere 'angels') that came down from the sky and copulated with the human women thereby producing giant offspring.
These words, whether Jesus said them or not, is far removed from the milieu in which Genesis was written and is irrelevant to interpreting it in its own context and cultural setting.
See above about using the New Testament (written long after and in a different milieu than the text in question) to interpret the meaning of Genesis vi. The phrase 'sons of God' as it appears in the OT always refers to divine beings in the six places where the phrase is found (Genesis vi.2,4; the original text of Deuteronomy xxxii.8, Job i.6; ii.1; xxxviii.7). In none of these contexts can the phrase sensibly refer to human beings.
The rest of your assertions may be dismissed as making similar exegetical errors.
Thanks,
Eric
That is not correct. As has been pointed out, "sons of God" is used of certain persons or certain groups of people. To believe in any other divine beings or gods is in direct contradiction to Scripture.wavy said:
Firstly, there is no reason to believe Jesus didn't say these words. Secondly, they are very relevant to interpreting the passage in Genesis. If it is true that angels cannot procreate, then it is true for all times and in all places, which includes Genesis.wavy said:
Deut. 32:8 clearly refers to the people of Israel, the context demands that. In Gen. 6:2,4, it is merely assumption that it refers to angels or divine beings--there is no support for either view. Job 1:6, 2:1 and 38:7 clearly refer to angels.wavy said:
So what you have is one book that uses the phrase three times to clearly refer to angels. You have another book in which the phrase clearly refers to the people of Israel. Then you have Genesis in which it is unclear to whom the phrase refers, but it likely refers to humans since angels cannot procreate and there are no divine beings other than God himself.
Free said:
And in the Old Testament, the specific Hebrew phrase 'sons of God' always refers to divine beings. One need only look at all the instances where this phrase occurrs to soundly come to that conclusion.
It might be contradictory to your theological presuppositions (including those of inerrancy), but the fact of the matter is that the phrase 'sons of God' refers to divine beings in every other place where it is found in the Hebrew bible in accord with the cultural context in which it was written.
No, to read a theological claim of a Gospel written in Greek in an entirely different cultural context and superpose it onto the Hebrew bible is anachronistic. Later theological ideas about angels are irrelevant to Genesis.
The original text of Deuteronomy as witnessed by the LXX and the DSS refers to the 'sons of God' which, in the context in which this book was written, referred to divine beings...the 'sons of El'.
Clearly you did not read my post. I will return to this point later.
Try again.
Thanks,
Eric
This has nothing to do with my presuppositions and everything to do with yours. I am merely showing that the immediate contexts of certain verses, or a certain verse, refute your interpretation of that verse. You are inserting a meaning into Deut. 32:8 that is completely unwarranted and unsupportable.wavy said:
They are completely relevant since the NT is an extension of the OT. There is no NT without the OT. And as I stated, if Jesus made a truth claim about angels, that they cannot procreate, then that is true for all times and in all places.wavy said:
No. The argument isn't whether 'sons of God' is used in any of the Scriptures, rather it is your erroneous and unjustifiable interpretation of 'sons of God'. As I stated, the immediate context is clearly referring to the Israelites; but the entire book is about God's dealings with the Israelites, so to say that 'sons of God' is referring to divine beings, is to insert a meaning utterly foreign:wavy said:
Deu 32:6 Do you thus repay the LORD, you foolish and senseless people? Is not he your father, who created you, who made you and established you?
Deu 32:7 Remember the days of old; consider the years of many generations; ask your father, and he will show you, your elders, and they will tell you.
Deu 32:8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.
Deu 32:9 But the LORD's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage. (ESV)
Deu 32:8 In the Most High causing nations to inherit, In His separating sons of Adam--He setteth up the borders of the peoples By the number of the sons of Israel. (YLT)
Deu 32:8 When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.
(KJV)
Deu 32:8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, When he separated the children of men, He set the bounds of the peoples According to the number of the children of Israel. (ASV)
Deu 32:8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when He separated the children of men, He set the borders of the peoples according to the number of the children of Israel. (JPS--translated from the Torah)
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
There really is no need for me to even provide all these references since the context of any of them is absolutely clear.
n2thelight
Member
23. "THE SONS OF GOD" IN GEN. 6:2, 4.
It is only by the Divine specific act of creation that any created being can be called "a son of God". For that which is "born of the flesh is flesh". God is spirit, and that which is "born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6). Hence Adam is called a "son of God" in Luke 3:38. Those "in Christ" having "the new nature" which is by the direct creation of God (2Cor. 5:17. Eph. 2:10) can be, and are called "sons of God" (John 1:13. Rom. 8:14, 15. 1John 3:1). (*1)
This is why angels are called "sons of God" in every other place where the expression is used in the Old Testament. Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7. Ps. 29:1; 89:6. Dan. 3:25 (no art.). (*2) We have no authority or right to take the expression in Gen. 6:2, 4 in any other sense. Moreover, in Gen. 6:2 the Sept. renders it "angels".
Angels are called "spirits" (Ps. 104:4. Heb. 1:7, 14), for spirits are created by God.
That there was a fall of the angels is certain from Jude 6.
The nature of their fall is clearly stated in the same verse. They left their own oijkhthvrion (oiketerion). This word occurs only in 2Cor. 5:2 and Jude 6, where it is used of the spiritual (or resurrection) body.
The nature of their sin is stated to be "in like manner" to that of the subsequent sins of Sodom and Gomorrha, Jude 7.
The time of their fall is given as having taken place "in the days of Noah" (1Pet. 3:20. 2Pet. 2:7), though there may have been a prior fall which caused the end of "the world that then was" (Gen. 1:1, 2. 2Pet. 3:6).
For this sin they are "reserved unto judgment", 2Pet. 2:4, and are "in prison", 1Pet. 3:19.
Their progeny, called Nephilim (translated "giants"), were monsters of iniquity; and, being superhuman in size and character, had to be destroyed (see Ap. 25). This was the one and only object of the Flood.
Only Noah and his family had preserved their pedigree pure from Adam (Gen. 6:9, see note). All the rest had become "corrupt" (shachath) destroyed [as Adamites]. the only remedy was to destroy it (de facto), as it had become destroyed (de jure). (It is the same word in v. 17 as in vv. 11, 12.) See further under Ap. 25 on the Nephilim.
This irruption of fallen angels was Satan's first attempt to prevent the coming of the Seed of the woman foretold in gen. 3:15. If this could be accomplished, God's Word would have failed, and his own doom would be averted.
As soon as it was made known that the Seed of the woman was to come through ABRAHAM, there must have been another irruption, as recorded in Gen. 6:4, "and also after that" (i.e. after the days of Noah, more than 500 years after the first irruption). The aim of the enemy was to occupy Canaan in advance of Abraham, and so to contest its occupation by his seed. For, when Abraham entered Canaan, we read (Gen. 12:6) "the Canaanite was then (i.e. already) in the land."
In the same chapter (Gen. 12:10-20) we see Satan's next attempt to interfere with Abraham's seed, and frustrate the purpose of God that it should be in "Isaac". This attempt was repeated in 20:1-18.
This great conflict may be seen throughout the Bible, and it forms a great and important subject of Biblical study. In each case the human instrument had his own personal interest to serve, while Satan had his own great object in view. Hence God had, in each case, to interfere and avert the evil and the danger, of which his servants and people were wholly ignorant. The following assaults of the great Enemy stand out prominently :--
The destruction of the chosen family by famine, Gen. 50:20.
The destruction of the male line in Israel, Ex. 1:10, 15, &c. Cp. Ex. 2:5. Heb. 11:23.
The destruction of the whole nation in Pharaoh's pursuit, Ex. 14.
After David's line was singled out (2Sam. 7), that was the next selected for assault. Satan's first assault was in the union of Jehoram and Athaliah by Jehoshaphat, notwithstanding 2Chron. 17:1. Jehoram killed off all his brothers (2Chron. 21:4).
The Arabians slew all his children, except Ahaziah (2Chron. 21:17; 22:1).
When Ahaziah died, Athaliah killed "all the seed royal" (2Chron. 22:10). the babe Joash alone was rescued; and, for six years, the faithfulness of Jehovah's word was at stake (2Chron. 23:3).
Hezekiah was childless, when a double assault was made by the King of Assyria and the King of Terrors (Isa. 36:1; 38:1). God's faithfulness was appealed to and relied on (Ps. 136).
In Captivity, Haman was used to attempt the destruction of the whole nation (Est. 3:6, 12, 13. Cp. 6:1).
Joseph's fear was worked on (Matt. 1:18-20). Notwithstanding the fact that he was "a just man", and kept the Law, he did not wish to have Mary stoned to death (Deut. 24:1); hence Joseph determined to divorce her. But God intervened : "Fear not".
Herod sought the young Child's life (Matt. 2).
At the Temptation, "Cast Thyself down" was Satan's temptation.
At Nazareth, again (Luke 4), there was another attempt to cast Him down and destroy Him.
The two storms on the Lake were other attempts.
At length the cross was reached, and the sepulcher closed; the watch set; and the stone sealed. But "God raised Him from the dead." And now, like another Joash, He is seated and expecting (Heb. 10:12, 13), hidden in the house of God on high; and the members of "the one body" are hidden there "in Him" (Col. 3:1-3), like another Jehoshaba; and going forth to witness of His coming, like another Jehoiada (2Chron. 23:3).
The irruption of "the fallen angels" ("sons of God") was the first attempt; and was directed against the whole human race.
When Abraham was called, then he and his seed were attacked.
When David was enthroned, then the royal line were attacked.
And when "the Seed of the woman" Himself came, then the storm burst upon Him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(*1) The word "offspring" in Acts 17:28 is quite different. It is gevnos (genos), which means merely kin or kind, our genus as being originated by God.
(*2) In Hos. 1:10, it is not beni-ha-Elohim, as here, but beni-el-chai.
http://www.angelfire.com/nv/TheOliveBra ... end23.html
It is only by the Divine specific act of creation that any created being can be called "a son of God". For that which is "born of the flesh is flesh". God is spirit, and that which is "born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6). Hence Adam is called a "son of God" in Luke 3:38. Those "in Christ" having "the new nature" which is by the direct creation of God (2Cor. 5:17. Eph. 2:10) can be, and are called "sons of God" (John 1:13. Rom. 8:14, 15. 1John 3:1). (*1)
This is why angels are called "sons of God" in every other place where the expression is used in the Old Testament. Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7. Ps. 29:1; 89:6. Dan. 3:25 (no art.). (*2) We have no authority or right to take the expression in Gen. 6:2, 4 in any other sense. Moreover, in Gen. 6:2 the Sept. renders it "angels".
Angels are called "spirits" (Ps. 104:4. Heb. 1:7, 14), for spirits are created by God.
That there was a fall of the angels is certain from Jude 6.
The nature of their fall is clearly stated in the same verse. They left their own oijkhthvrion (oiketerion). This word occurs only in 2Cor. 5:2 and Jude 6, where it is used of the spiritual (or resurrection) body.
The nature of their sin is stated to be "in like manner" to that of the subsequent sins of Sodom and Gomorrha, Jude 7.
The time of their fall is given as having taken place "in the days of Noah" (1Pet. 3:20. 2Pet. 2:7), though there may have been a prior fall which caused the end of "the world that then was" (Gen. 1:1, 2. 2Pet. 3:6).
For this sin they are "reserved unto judgment", 2Pet. 2:4, and are "in prison", 1Pet. 3:19.
Their progeny, called Nephilim (translated "giants"), were monsters of iniquity; and, being superhuman in size and character, had to be destroyed (see Ap. 25). This was the one and only object of the Flood.
Only Noah and his family had preserved their pedigree pure from Adam (Gen. 6:9, see note). All the rest had become "corrupt" (shachath) destroyed [as Adamites]. the only remedy was to destroy it (de facto), as it had become destroyed (de jure). (It is the same word in v. 17 as in vv. 11, 12.) See further under Ap. 25 on the Nephilim.
This irruption of fallen angels was Satan's first attempt to prevent the coming of the Seed of the woman foretold in gen. 3:15. If this could be accomplished, God's Word would have failed, and his own doom would be averted.
As soon as it was made known that the Seed of the woman was to come through ABRAHAM, there must have been another irruption, as recorded in Gen. 6:4, "and also after that" (i.e. after the days of Noah, more than 500 years after the first irruption). The aim of the enemy was to occupy Canaan in advance of Abraham, and so to contest its occupation by his seed. For, when Abraham entered Canaan, we read (Gen. 12:6) "the Canaanite was then (i.e. already) in the land."
In the same chapter (Gen. 12:10-20) we see Satan's next attempt to interfere with Abraham's seed, and frustrate the purpose of God that it should be in "Isaac". This attempt was repeated in 20:1-18.
This great conflict may be seen throughout the Bible, and it forms a great and important subject of Biblical study. In each case the human instrument had his own personal interest to serve, while Satan had his own great object in view. Hence God had, in each case, to interfere and avert the evil and the danger, of which his servants and people were wholly ignorant. The following assaults of the great Enemy stand out prominently :--
The destruction of the chosen family by famine, Gen. 50:20.
The destruction of the male line in Israel, Ex. 1:10, 15, &c. Cp. Ex. 2:5. Heb. 11:23.
The destruction of the whole nation in Pharaoh's pursuit, Ex. 14.
After David's line was singled out (2Sam. 7), that was the next selected for assault. Satan's first assault was in the union of Jehoram and Athaliah by Jehoshaphat, notwithstanding 2Chron. 17:1. Jehoram killed off all his brothers (2Chron. 21:4).
The Arabians slew all his children, except Ahaziah (2Chron. 21:17; 22:1).
When Ahaziah died, Athaliah killed "all the seed royal" (2Chron. 22:10). the babe Joash alone was rescued; and, for six years, the faithfulness of Jehovah's word was at stake (2Chron. 23:3).
Hezekiah was childless, when a double assault was made by the King of Assyria and the King of Terrors (Isa. 36:1; 38:1). God's faithfulness was appealed to and relied on (Ps. 136).
In Captivity, Haman was used to attempt the destruction of the whole nation (Est. 3:6, 12, 13. Cp. 6:1).
Joseph's fear was worked on (Matt. 1:18-20). Notwithstanding the fact that he was "a just man", and kept the Law, he did not wish to have Mary stoned to death (Deut. 24:1); hence Joseph determined to divorce her. But God intervened : "Fear not".
Herod sought the young Child's life (Matt. 2).
At the Temptation, "Cast Thyself down" was Satan's temptation.
At Nazareth, again (Luke 4), there was another attempt to cast Him down and destroy Him.
The two storms on the Lake were other attempts.
At length the cross was reached, and the sepulcher closed; the watch set; and the stone sealed. But "God raised Him from the dead." And now, like another Joash, He is seated and expecting (Heb. 10:12, 13), hidden in the house of God on high; and the members of "the one body" are hidden there "in Him" (Col. 3:1-3), like another Jehoshaba; and going forth to witness of His coming, like another Jehoiada (2Chron. 23:3).
The irruption of "the fallen angels" ("sons of God") was the first attempt; and was directed against the whole human race.
When Abraham was called, then he and his seed were attacked.
When David was enthroned, then the royal line were attacked.
And when "the Seed of the woman" Himself came, then the storm burst upon Him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(*1) The word "offspring" in Acts 17:28 is quite different. It is gevnos (genos), which means merely kin or kind, our genus as being originated by God.
(*2) In Hos. 1:10, it is not beni-ha-Elohim, as here, but beni-el-chai.
http://www.angelfire.com/nv/TheOliveBra ... end23.html
B
BobRyan
Guest
wavy said:
As it turns out - John 1 says Jesus IS God and is the one who "Created ALL things" v 1-4. We see the same claim made again for Jesus in Colossians 1:13-18 so Christians will probably go for that.
Since Jesus made angels AND HE says they are not made to form family groups even with each other much less "inter-species breeding" -- I think he still ranks as "The expert".
See above about using the New Testament (written long after and in a different milieu
[/quote:2dj39197]
Bible believing Christians immediately recognize the words of Peter in 2Peter where the statement is made regarding the OT that NO text of the OT is a matter of one's own interpretation but rather "Holy men of old MOVED by the Spirit of God SPOKE from God" - So we have the same source of inspiration in BOTH texts and in this case exegesis demands that we look at the whole of scripture on this subject instead of eisegeting into it what ever prior-bias may dictate as in your case.
Bob