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[_ Old Earth _] What is wrong with cloning?

arunangelo

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The very essence of human existence is love, because, we are created in the image of God (who is love) (Gen. 1:27) and are a product of God’s love expressed through our parents union of love (Eph 5:25). Artificial insemination, in-vitro fertilization and cloning procedures therefore, dehumanize human reproduction, by taking the act of unitive love (Gen. 2:24) out of it and converting it into a purely cellular process. Furthermore, during in-vitro fertilization and cloning procedures, lethal violence is committed against many human beings, who (as embryos) are destroyed; thus breaking God’s commandment (Exodus 20:13). Some of these procedures also deprive the resultant human beings the dignity of knowing their origin (biological parents), causing them grave injustice and psychological trauma. Unitive love, which is conjugal union in marriage, is inseparable from procreation, because, conjugal union’s physiological purpose is procreation. These procedures, therefore, dehumanizes unitive love. This causes division, divorce and turmoil. Therapeutic cloning, human beings are cloned, then killed in their embryonic stage and then their cells are harvested for medical use. This procedure, therefore, is one-step up in its evil intend compared to the other type of cloning.

Biologically, our humanity is determined by our genetic make up and not by our stage of development. Furthermore, an embryo is a stage in human development; just as infant, toddler, youth and adult are. Therefore, to justify killing of frozen embryos, which are doomed to die from being discarded, is similar to killing prisoners in the concentration camp for research, because they are doomed to die.
 
You quote that we should not murder (illegal killing). Since this is not illegal, it is not murder.

Lets look at basic cloning. Take unfertalized eggs from the mother. I don't know of anyone that stands up for the rights of unfertalized eggs. Now add some DNA from a cell. If done right you have a fertalized egg. Now with this simplistic picture (with no embryos dieing) I can see nothing morally wrong with it.

Quath
 
So you're saying that christians ought not be allowed to study cloning, sure, but you can't apply your manufactured christian-specific morals to non-christians, it's neither fair nor logical. You haven't provided actual proof that cloning is wrong, just that it's wrong in a christian world view.
 
You quote that we should not murder (illegal killing). Since this is not illegal, it is not murder.

Lets look at basic cloning. Take unfertalized eggs from the mother. I don't know of anyone that stands up for the rights of unfertalized eggs. Now add some DNA from a cell. If done right you have a fertalized egg. Now with this simplistic picture (with no embryos dieing) I can see nothing morally wrong with it.

Quath

Killing Jews during Nazi goverment was legal. To killing a slave was legal in this country. Legal killing is still killing.
 
So you're saying that christians ought not be allowed to study cloning, sure, but you can't apply your manufactured christian-specific morals to non-christians, it's neither fair nor logical. You haven't provided actual proof that cloning is wrong, just that it's wrong in a christian world view.
Thou shall not kill is one of the 10 commandments and it is a law in this country. Cloning is harmful physically(results in genetic defects), spiritually (we loose respect for human life and marriage) and psychologically (will cause severe psychological trauma by depriving the resultant being of having a biological mother and father). We make laws to prevent harm.
 
Hmm, well let's see.

Clones could be tread poorly, as second class citizens or worse.(I beleive some movies deal with this scenario.)

Clones could be created with no rights and be used for harvesting organs.

Cloning may carry many birth/genetic defects that are extremely risky and difficult to stop or fix.
 
Thou shall not kill is one of the 10 commandments and it is a law in this country.

Actually, whenever the bible talks about not killing, it's actually talking about murder (the unlawful killing of an organism). That's why it wasn't murder when God killed those millions (if not billions) of people in the flood...because nothing God does is unlawful.

Cloning is harmful physically(results in genetic defects)

Not really. You can expect the same amount of genetic defects in clones as you can in a naturally born child (the mutation rate is pretty much the same) unless the defects are genetically engineered and put there on purpose.

spiritually (we loose respect for human life and marriage)

Well, we could just genetically engineer them enough so that they aren't human (say change them so that they don't have reproductive organs). Would that make you happy? No, it wouldn't. This argument is stupid (especially the part of marriage).

psychologically (will cause severe psychological trauma by depriving the resultant being of having a biological mother and father).

How do you know? People don't need biological parents to take care of them, we're just like every other animal in that we grow up to love whoever cares for us, regardless of who or what they are. Hell, my mom was adopted and doesn't know anything about her real parents (she was adopted at the age of 2), and she says that she considers her adoptive parents her real parents and doesn't care who her biological parents are. She's fine.

Clones could be tread poorly, as second class citizens or worse.(I beleive some movies deal with this scenario.)

...or they couldn't. How would you be able to tell the difference?

Clones could be created with no rights and be used for harvesting organs.

Which is one reason I support cloning.

Cloning may carry many birth/genetic defects that are extremely risky and difficult to stop or fix.

And they may be born spitting fire and flying around with wings. MAY is the important word there. And besides, if this was happening, that would just speed up research to fix these kinds of defects.
 
...or they couldn't. How would you be able to tell the difference?

I can't. I simply ask myself, is it -personally or otherwise- worth the various possible consequences?

Which is one reason I support cloning.

So, let me get this straight: You want to duplicate humans, destroy these duplicates, in order to 'fix' natural humans with problems? Is that right?

What a profound seven word sentance that was. In that small statement, you can give a drastic veiw of how much you undervalue life.

Even further, a thought just occurred to me. You don't beleive in God because you want to be one.

And they may be born spitting fire and flying around with wings. MAY is the important word there. And besides, if this was happening, that would just speed up research to fix these kinds of defects.

Unless clones have already been 'made', no one knows for sure.
 
So, let me get this straight: You want to duplicate humans, destroy these duplicates, in order to 'fix' natural humans with problems? Is that right?

What a profound seven word sentance that was. In that small statement, you can give a drastic veiw of how much you undervalue life.

I wasn't talking about cloning humans and cutting the organs out of them in that sentence, I was talking about cloning human organs and harvesting them.

Even further, a thought just occurred to me. You don't beleive in God because you want to be one.

Not at all...I'm much happier being a mere human faced with the mysteries of life than I would be if I were a God who knew the answers to all of the mysteries. I don't just like to know things, I like to find them out.
 
Here's a pertinent article regarding the possibility of generating embroyonic stem cells without destroying embryos.

Stem Cell Advances May Make Moral Issue Moot

By Rick Weiss
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, June 6, 2005; A07



If only human embryonic stem cells could sprout anew from something other than a human embryo. Researchers could harvest them and perhaps harness their great biomedical potential without destroying what some consider to be a budding human life.

But like a low-calorie banana split or the proverbial free lunch, there is no such thing as an embryo-free embryonic stem cell.

Or is there?

In recent months, a number of researchers have begun to assemble intriguing evidence that it is possible to generate embryonic stem cells without having to create or destroy new human embryos.

The research is still young and largely unpublished, and in some cases it is limited to animal cells. Scientists doing the work also emphasize their desire to have continued access to human embryos for now. It is largely by analyzing how nature makes stem cells, deep inside days-old embryos, that these researchers are learning how to make the cells themselves.

Yet the gathering consensus among biologists is that embryonic stem cells are made, not born -- and that embryos are not an essential ingredient. That means that today's heated debates over embryo rights could fade in the aftermath of technical advances allowing scientists to convert ordinary cells into embryonic stem cells.

"That would really get around all the moral and ethical concerns," said James F. Battey, chief of the stem cell task force at the National Institutes of Health. The techniques under study qualify for federal grant support because embryos are not harmed, he noted. And eventually the work could boost the number of stem cell colonies, or lines, available for study by taxpayer-supported researchers.

The transformation of ordinary body cells into extraordinary stem cells is not a matter of alchemy but molecular biology. All human cells, be they stem or otherwise, have the same basic complement of genes. What is different about stem cells -- and what gives them their remarkable capacity to proliferate and morph into whatever kind of cell the body may need -- is the specific pattern of activity of their genes. It is all about which genes are working and which are dormant.

As cells mature during embryonic and fetal development, certain genes in those cells are switched either on or off. Depending on the new pattern of activity, each cell becomes skin, heart muscle, nerve or some other kind of specialized cell.

Now scientists are exploring methods for resetting the genetic switches inside various cells to the positions that will make them embryonic again. Both of the two major approaches now under study use existing embryonic stem cells (widely available from previously destroyed embryos and eligible for study using federal funds) to help ordinary cells become stem cells.

In one approach pioneered by Robert Lanza and colleagues at Advanced Cell Technology in Worcester, Mass., researchers pluck single cells from eight-cell embryos -- embryos so young they do not have stem cells yet.

Fertility doctors have known for years that early embryos seem unfazed by the removal of any one of their eight virtually identical cells, called blastomeres. In fact, it is common today to remove a single, representative blastomere from a laboratory-conceived embryo and test that cell for disease genes before deciding whether to transfer that embryo into a woman's womb.

Working with early mouse embryos, the team has found that single blastomeres, when cultivated in dishes with embryonic stem cells, can become what appear to be embryonic stem cells themselves. Chemicals secreted by the embryonic cells apparently flip the right genetic switches in the blastomeres to make them act "stemmy."

About a quarter to one-third of blastomeres treated this way can be coaxed to become embryonic stem cells or closely related embryo cells, said Lanza, who declined to release specific data pending publication in a peer-reviewed journal.

If this technique were applied to humans, then a single cell taken from an eight-cell fertility clinic embryo could give rise to a self-replicating line of embryonic stem cells without compromising the donor embryo's odds of someday growing into a baby.

"The president has said it is wrong to destroy a life to save a life," Lanza said. "This might be a way to get some cell lines that the president . . . can get behind."

Other researchers are experimenting with variations on a second approach. Chad Cowan and co-workers at Harvard University, for example, use chemicals to get an adult human skin cell to fuse with a human embryonic stem cell. The two cells become one with shared cellular contents, including two full batches of genes.

Experiments indicate that something in the stem cell "reprograms" the skin cell's genes, putting the hybrid cell into an embryonic state. The team is now developing ways to remove the original stem cell's DNA after reprogramming is complete. What will be left is an embryo-like cell that can be made to grow into all kinds of tissues -- all of which will be genetically matched to the person who donated the original skin cell.

Alan Trounson of Monash University in Australia has been performing similar experiments involving the fusion of mouse skin and stem cells. He recently reported he has developed a relatively simple system for removing that extra DNA after the skin cell's genes have been reprogrammed, offering hope that Cowan's work in human cells will indeed work.

And Yuri Verlinsky of the Reproductive Genetics Institute in Chicago reported at a meeting last month that he has succeeded in making new human embryonic stem cells by first removing the DNA from a stem cell and then fusing the rest of that cell with a human skin cell.

He has made 20 lines of stem cells this way, he said in an interview, acknowledging that he has yet to complete the battery of tests that will prove they can do everything an embryonic stem cell can do. "It's a work in progress," he said.

Researchers said several key challenges remain. Lanza has found it difficult, for example, to keep his newly made stem cells in an embryonic state. Most want to mature quickly into one kind of adult cell or another. Other scientists say it will take time to show that the stem cells they have made are genetically stable and healthy.

The ultimate challenge, scientists said, will be to get beyond their reliance on harvested embryonic stem cells and turn people's mature cells into embryonic stem cells of their own. To do so, researchers will have to identify the specific, switch-flipping chemical factors inside stem cells.

"The end hope is to determine the exact molecular components of reprogramming and get it down to something chemically useful so you can get adult cells to turn into any cell type you want," Cowan said. "That's the science fiction goal that we'd all like to see come true."

That cocktail of chemicals, synthesized in a lab and available off the shelf, could be the closest thing to a true elixir of life that science is ever likely to make.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 72_pf.html
 
Adult (non-embryonic) stem cells are available readily. They were obtained without killing anyone. They are the only ones that have proven to be beneficial so far. Some of the sources for such stem cells are fat, bone marrow cord blood.
 
Adult (non-embryonic) stem cells are available readily. They were obtained without killing anyone. They are the only ones that have proven to be beneficial so far. Some of the sources for such stem cells are fat, bone marrow cord blood.
 
I wasn't talking about cloning humans and cutting the organs out of them in that sentence, I was talking about cloning human organs and harvesting them.

But I said that clones could be created without rights, and be used for harvesting organs. To which you said that is one reason you support cloning. Obviously, I was speaking about cloned humans. How was that not clear? Or are you back-peddling?

Not at all...I'm much happier being a mere human faced with the mysteries of life than I would be if I were a God who knew the answers to all of the mysteries. I don't just like to know things, I like to find them out.

I was reffering to you playing God, and that was why I thought you didn't beleive, not because you don't like omniscience.
 
Personally i think that cloning is morally wrong, and the reason being that i think scientist these days are trying to play God.... Science is taking over! Its trying to say...look, ooh, we can create life now!! And mate, its scary to think whats next. I mean what? First they will create a human, and if thats a success then who knows whats next...they might toy with this and create a half human, half other animal thingie..

I dont know...also what if they try to clone something like a human, and it doesnt turn out so glamerous. Like an extremely disabled clonned person for example? What will they do with this life...kill it? So harsh.
 
By thaqt logic, scientists play God when they come up with new medicine, have humans fly instead of walk, use a C section instead of natural birth.

Is improving humans and our living conditions a good thing or bad?

Quath
 
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