What is your understanding of the "144,000"?

[sk0rpi0n]

I find this verse to be rather mysterious... I will go over it point by point and then end with a little summary.


"1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads."
-Ok, so there were 144,000. Thats clear.

No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
-Ok. This is clear as well.


4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins.
- Curious how "virginity", and not "accepting the sacrifice of Jesus" is a factor establishing the "chosen-ness" of the 144,000. Does it mean that non-virgins are defiled?

They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.
-Im guessing "lamb" is interpreted to be Jesus... so of all the christians throughout the ages, only these 144,000 follow the lamb??

5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.
Here is where it starts getting mysterious...Given the doctrine of "original sin", doesnt it mean every one is born a sinner? So then how can anyone be blameless?
Even if I say they are redeemed by Jesus sacrifice, these verses say nothing hinting towards the 144,000 accepting the sacrifice of Jesus.


So...Who are these 144,000?
Rev 7:3-8, describes them as being 12,000 each from the Israelite tribes (mentioned by name), meaning its established they need to be Israelite in origin and be genetically related to the tribe leaders ( Judah, Reuben, Gad, Levi etc) and NOT non-israelite christians.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Shilohsfoal]

They were redeemed meaning they were bought for a price.That price is the sacrifice Jesus made.

They follow the lamb witherso he goeth.This means they did what Jesus says to do in the gospels.They took up thier cross and followed him.
No not everyone follows the lamb witherso he goeth.I find it impossible for myself to do so because I will not face the same obstacles that are put forth in the gospels.Many of the things in the gospels I will not face at all.Ive learned that I myself will not face the beast as they will because I dont dwell in that kingdom.But the 144,000 do.They are Israel.The overcomers.

 

[lamplady]

So...Who are these 144,000?

Could be angels??? ... ...

I think most of us find Revelations weird. It's said to be about symbolisms though not literal ...

 

[Alabaster]

So...Who are these 144,000?

Could be angels??? ... ...

I think most of us find Revelations weird. It's said to be about symbolisms though not literal ...

Scripture explicitly identifies them as people---Jews, 12,000 form each tribe.

Revelation 7:4-8
And I heard how many were marked with the seal of God—144,000 were sealed from all the tribes of Israel:

5 from Judah — 12,000
from Reuben — 12,000
from Gad — 12,000
6 from Asher — 12,000
from Naphtali — 12,000
from Manasseh — 12,000
7 from Simeon — 12,000
from Levi — 12,000
from Issachar — 12,000
8 from Zebulun — 12,000
from Joseph — 12,000
from Benjamin — 12,000

 

[Elijah674]

So...Who are these 144,000?

Could be angels??? ... ...

I think most of us find Revelations weird. It's said to be about symbolisms though not literal ...

Hi, here is the way that I see it! But you will need to pay attention!;)

Read Rev. 17:1-5 & make sure that you see that these ones are what God DOCUMENTS! (even verse 5 with being DAUGHTERS!)

OK: Rev. 1-3 have THE REAL VIRGIN's. (as in Matt. 25 ALL VIRGINS IN DOCTRINE)

These 'Seven' represent the Lords Isa. 5 VINEYARD. OK, got that??

SO: The 144000 ARE NOT DEFILED WITH THE Rev. 17:1-5 false Doctrines.
Here is what a couple verses say in Rev. ...

Rev. 1

[20] The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Rev.2

[1] Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
[2] I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
[3] And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
[4] Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
[5] Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Even these Virgin in Doctrine Churchs can & had this Warning of being REMOVED!

Anyhow, from the last church of Laodicea come the 144000 which had not been defiled with the abomination of the earth ones. (doctrine/wise) They are the ones of Rev. 17:12 'Remnant' which are identified as.. 'keeping the Commandments of God [AND] having the Testimony of Jesus Christ'

But be sure not to miss Rev. 7:9's GREAT MULTITUDE beyound these! These ones are the saved from Adam on as 'i' see it.

--Elijah

 

[Alabaster]

Hi, here is the way that I see it! But you will need to pay attention!;)

Read Rev. 17:1-5 & make sure that you see that these ones are what God DOCUMENTS! (even verse 5 with being DAUGHTERS!)

When you see the word, 'virgin', do you only think female?

Revelation 14:3-5
3 This great choir sang a wonderful new song in front of the throne of God and before the four living beings and the twenty-four elders. No one could learn this song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 They have kept themselves as pure as virgins, following the Lamb wherever he goes. They have been purchased from among the people on the earth as a special offering to God and to the Lamb. 5 They have told no lies; they are without blame.

 

[Codger]

I find this verse to be rather mysterious... I will go over it point by point and then end with a little summary.


"1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads."
-Ok, so there were 144,000. Thats clear.

No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
-Ok. This is clear as well.


4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins.
- Curious how "virginity", and not "accepting the sacrifice of Jesus" is a factor establishing the "chosen-ness" of the 144,000. Does it mean that non-virgins are defiled?

They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.
-Im guessing "lamb" is interpreted to be Jesus... so of all the christians throughout the ages, only these 144,000 follow the lamb??

5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.
Here is where it starts getting mysterious...Given the doctrine of "original sin", doesnt it mean every one is born a sinner? So then how can anyone be blameless?
Even if I say they are redeemed by Jesus sacrifice, these verses say nothing hinting towards the 144,000 accepting the sacrifice of Jesus.


So...Who are these 144,000?
Rev 7:3-8, describes them as being 12,000 each from the Israelite tribes (mentioned by name), meaning its established they need to be Israelite in origin and be genetically related to the tribe leaders ( Judah, Reuben, Gad, Levi etc) and NOT non-israelite christians.

What are your thoughts?

The 144,000 is simple -don't make it so complex and mysterious.

The book of Revelation was written to whom? It was written to the Christians of the first century? What did the 144,000 mean to the first century Christians? We only look over their shoulders to see what it meant to them and then we can see what it means to us - just like all the books in the Bible. None were written directly to us.

Here is the correct listing of the 12 tribes of Israel from the book of Chronicles...
1 Chron. 2:1-2 (KJV)
These are the sons of Israel;
Reuben,
Simeon,
Levi,
Judah,
Issachar,
Zebulun,
Dan,
Joseph,
Benjamin,
Naphtali,
Gad,
Asher.

Here are the symbolic listing of the tribes (144,000) in REVELATION.

JUDAH – Who came from the tribe of Judah? Who was the firstborn of the New Covenant? The firstborn was always listed first - and in the O.T. listing the firstborn is always Reuben. But in this symbolic listing Judah is first - WHY!! Because the firstborn of this company of people is Jesus. He is at the head of this group of people and the name Judah means “praise.â€
Reuben - who sees the son
Gad - a band; a troop
Asher – happiness
Naphtali - that struggles or fights
Manasseh - forgetfulness
Simeon - that hears or obeys
Levi - associated with him
Issachar - reward; recompense
Zebulun - dwelling; habitation
Joseph - increase
Benjamin - son of the right hand
(Benoni) - son of my sorrow, or pain

So the meaning of the 144,000 is contained in the meaning of the names and that of the Firstborn. Why did God use space in the Bible to describe the birth of these 12 boys in the first place?

The first question that has to be answered is, why is John's list a botched up mess? Can't he remember the proper listing of the tribes of Israel. No one has given a good and logical reason for this that I have heard. The reason that it is "Botched" up is because he is drawing symbols out of the Old Testament and he does this all through the book of Revelation.

So the "symbolic" picture of the 144,000 is a company of the people of God for all time who at their head is the firstborn Son seated at God’s right hand. A company of people who are happy and full of praise. An army who fights and obeys the one who has forgotten all of their sins; and they will increase and receive a reward and dwell with him forever. This was good news in particular to someone in the time of Revelation who was facing starved lions in the arenas of Rome.

As Rachel lie dying of childbirth with Benjamin – she named him “Benoni†that means “son of my suffering.†Jacob said no - he will be called “Benjamin†– son of my right hand. What a beautiful picture of Christ we have been given. He is our Benoni - Benjamin.

Reference:
Genesis 35:17-18 (NASB)
And it came about when she was in severe labor that the midwife said to her, "Do not fear, for now you have another son." 18 And it came about as her soul was departing (for she died), that she named him Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin.

So what about the two tribes that were left out? They simple did not fit the message of the author...
Ephraim – fruitful - not used by John's preference.
Dan - judgment

God is not judging this company – they have escaped his judgment and wrath. You also need to take into account the fact that the 144,000 is mentioned in several places in Revelation. Are these all the same group or are they different? Lets look for a moment.

Rev. 7:4 (NASB)
And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

Rev. 14:1 (NASB)
And I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.

Rev. 14:3 (NASB)
And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth.

After the the 12 tribes were listed, John looked and saw the 12 tribes that were just described and here is what he saw.

Rev. 7:9 (NASB)
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

Looks to me like its all the same group that we described initially, but instead of being “Sealed†they had the name of the Son and the Father on their foreheads - Same difference. In 14:3 they were purchased from the earth – the persecuted and martyred Saints of God. Same group as the others all associated by the number 144,000. It relates first to the people to whom it was written in appx 92AD, but after that - to all Saints who have been tested on the Earth including us today. The redeemed company of the Lord were the only ones who could learn the new song because it was a song learned from the trials and tribulations of life on Earth. Does this make sense to you?

Numbers in the Book of Revelation are “Symbols†and not arithmetic. 144,000 is 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10. These are numbers which symbolize the unknown number of believers in this group. Revelation had to be simple for the people to understand in their day because a lot of the Christians then were uneducated slaves.

So why do I think this is the correct interpretation of the 144,000? Several reasons. First of all this interpretation is simple, and It also meant something to the Christians of the First century. It means something to all Christians of all ages throughout history from out of its original context - including us today, and will be a blessing to those who are yet to be born - should the lord delay his coming even longer. It doesn’t change with time or with current events; and it doesn’t just apply to a few select people somewhere out in the distant, obscure future.

Larry

 

[sk0rpi0n]

^ Ok Ill accept your explanation that the number is "symbolic".
Is there a part in Revelations that confirms that it was a "symbolic" list or "symbolic" numbers. Or are you deciding yourself what is symbolic or literal.
Speaking of numbers, what about the 200 million, the 10 horns and the 7 heads and so on. Are these all symbolic numbers, thus making it so vague that one cannot interpret their meaning at all?

Another thing that puzzles me about the 144000 is this verse that you never addressed.

5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.
Here is where it starts getting mysterious...Given the doctrine of "original sin", doesnt it mean every one is born a sinner? So then how can anyone be blameless?

 

[Shilohsfoal]

^ Ok Ill accept your explanation that the number is "symbolic".
Is there a part in Revelations that confirms that it was a "symbolic" list or "symbolic" numbers. Or are you deciding yourself what is symbolic or literal.
Speaking of numbers, what about the 200 million, the 10 horns and the 7 heads and so on. Are these all symbolic numbers, thus making it so vague that one cannot interpret their meaning at all?

Another thing that puzzles me about the 144000 is this verse that you never addressed.

5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.
Here is where it starts getting mysterious...Given the doctrine of "original sin", doesnt it mean every one is born a sinner? So then how can anyone be blameless?

Where are you getting your original sin doctrin?

 

[Alabaster]

^ Ok Ill accept your explanation that the number is "symbolic".
Is there a part in Revelations that confirms that it was a "symbolic" list or "symbolic" numbers. Or are you deciding yourself what is symbolic or literal.
Speaking of numbers, what about the 200 million, the 10 horns and the 7 heads and so on. Are these all symbolic numbers, thus making it so vague that one cannot interpret their meaning at all?

Another thing that puzzles me about the 144000 is this verse that you never addressed.

5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.
Here is where it starts getting mysterious...Given the doctrine of "original sin", doesnt it mean every one is born a sinner? So then how can anyone be blameless?

Every believer is blameless in Christ.

 

[Strangelove]

It's a toughie this one.

I havn't really made up my mind whether these are a remnant of racial Israelites that come to faith in Christ or whether the whole thing is spitritual.

Jasher, I like you're explanation...I've read it somehwere before.

Have you noticed if you add in a few small connecting words to those tribes meanings in order they make a nice little sentence? Give it a try.

Reuben - who sees the son
Gad - a band; a troop
Asher – happiness
Naphtali - that struggles or fights
Manasseh - forgetfulness
Simeon - that hears or obeys
Levi - associated with him
Issachar - reward; recompense
Zebulun - dwelling; habitation
Joseph - increase
Benjamin - son of the right hand
(Benoni) - son of my sorrow, or pain


Having said that though...I lean toward this group being racial Isrealites that God has sealed. I know it's kinda fleshy but He's God He can do what he wants.

Debatable. And not essential to salvation.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

The 144,000 are the overcomers.They are Israel.
Rev 3;12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God and he shall go no more out;and I will write upon him the name of my God,and the name of the city of my God,which is new Jerusalem,which cometh down out of heaven from my God;and I will write upon him my new name.

They overcome the beast.The ruler of thier kingdom.
Pharoah will not let them leave when the woman flees into the widerness.They have to stay in Egypt untill the deliverer comes .Does anyone here know where Egypt is?

 

[lamplady]

Does anyone here know where Egypt is?

Africa

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Africa

No.Its where our Lord was crucified.
The 144,000 are the chosen people.
A holy priesthood.Moses wrote alot about these guys.Alot

 

[Alabaster]

No.Its where our Lord was crucified.
The 144,000 are the chosen people.
A holy priesthood.Moses wrote alot about these guys.Alot

Jesus was crucified just outside Jerusalem.

The 144,000 are specific believing Jews, and not all of Israel.

What did Moses write about the 144,000? Please give references.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Jesus was crucified just outside Jerusalem.

The 144,000 are specific believing Jews, and not all of Israel.

What did Moses write about the 144,000? Please give references.

Rev 11;8
And thier dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city,which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt,where also our Lord was crucified.

Yes Jesus was crucified at Jerusalem.Spiritully called Egypt.But do you klnow what shall take place there?

Exodus 19;5
Now therefore,if ye will obey my voice indeed,and keep my covenant,then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people;for the earth is mine;

There is more written in scripture for those to understand than anyone else.
Everywhere I look in scripture,they are being spoken too.

Mt 10;23
But when they persectue you in this city,flee ye into another;for verily I say unto you,ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel,till the Son of man be come.

The 144,000 follow the Lamb witherso he goeth.
They will do as Jesus says word for word.

 

[Alabaster]

Rev 11;8
And thier dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city,which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt,where also our Lord was crucified.


Yes Jesus was crucified at Jerusalem.Spiritully called Egypt.But do you klnow what shall take place there?

Exodus 19;5
Now therefore,if ye will obey my voice indeed,and keep my covenant,then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people;for the earth is mine;

There is more written in scripture for those to understand than anyone else.
Everywhere I look in scripture,they are being spoken too.

Mt 10;23
But when they persectue you in this city,flee ye into another;for verily I say unto you,ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel,till the Son of man be come.

The 144,000 follow the Lamb witherso he goeth.
They will do as Jesus says word for word.

Yes, it is a metaphorical reference. It wasn't really Egypt. Nor was it Sodom. Jerusalem was referred to as Egypt as well as Sodom.

Yes the 144,000 Jewish men from 12 tribes of Israel who have received Jesus Christ will do just as the scriptures say. What are you saying, then?

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Yes, it is a metaphorical reference. It wasn't really Egypt. Nor was it Sodom. Jerusalem was referred to as Egypt as well as Sodom.

Yes the 144,000 Jewish men from 12 tribes of Israel who have received Jesus Christ will do just as the scriptures say. What are you saying, then?

What Im saying is they expirience something that none of us outside Judea will expirience.
They are confronted with the beast.

Rev 12;17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman,and went to make war with the remnant of her seed,which keep the commandments of God,and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Like I said.When the woman flees into the wildernness.They stay in Judea with the beast.
They will not have gone over all the cities of Israel till Jesus is come.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Jerimiah 51;9
We would have healed Babylon,but she is not healed;forsake her,and let us go every one into his own country;for her judgement reacheth unto heaven,and is lifted up even to the skies.

In a country of immigrants,you could leave and return to your own country.
But if you were born in Babylon,where are you going to go?
You think Lucifer ,king of Babylon would grant you a visa if he doesnt want you to leave?

They are given into his hand for 3 1/2 years.
Daniel 7;25
And he shall speak great words against the most High,and shall wear ou the saints of the most High,and think to change times and laws;and they shall be given into his hand untill a time and times and the deviding of time.

 

[guysmith]

They will be the only male Christians "redeemed from the earth."

Revelation 14:3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.