When did Moses or Abraham accept Jesus. . . to go to Heaven?

[Orion]

When did Moses or Abraham accept Jesus in order to go to Heaven, as is the only way one can?

 

[Paidion]

There is nothing in the Bible that tells us that "accepting Jesus" is the way to heaven. Jesus said that whoever does not forsake all he has and follow Him, CANNOT be His disciple. Later, the disciples were called "Christians" at Antioch. So there is no difference between a Christian and a disciple. The conditions for discipleship are still the same. We must submit ourselves completely to Jesus as LORD of our lives in order to be His disciple.

What is important is that Jesus accepts us, rather than we accepting Him (as if we are doing Him a great favour by accepting Him).

We also read in John that He came to His own people, and His own people did not receive Him. But as many as received Him He gave the authority to become the children of God. Receiving Him did not make them children of God, but gave them the authority TO BECOME children of God. To become children of God they had to submit to Jesus and become His disciples.

Moses and Abraham did not live in the Christian era. But nevertheless they had to submit to the authority of God in order to be acceptable to God.

 

[turnorburn]

What is true in the New Testament is true in the Old, its your faith in God that saves you....
They looked for the promise as well.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.

22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.

23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.

24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

27By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.

31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.

34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:

37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;

38 (Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

 

[Captain Sarcastic]

Good answer, TOB.

Like we teach our younguns in AWANA class, a la Romans 4:5, "Abraham believed Him and it was credited to him as righteousness." Remember this also: Jesus told the Pharisees, "Abraham saw My day, and he was glad." That is, Abe believed on God's OT promise of His Son. Therefore, he was saved. :shades

 

[Orion]

But it isn't JUST "faith in God" that saves, but believing that Jesus is the son of god (a concept not found in the OT), believing that he was crucified for or sins, died, and was raised again on the third day, and accended into heaven. OT folk would have died outside this knowledge and belief.

 

[mondar]

But it isn't JUST "faith in God" that saves, but believing that Jesus is the son of god (a concept not found in the OT), believing that he was crucified for or sins, died, and was raised again on the third day, and accended into heaven. OT folk would have died outside this knowledge and belief.

Orion,
As has been alluded to by turnorburn, Abraham believed God and it was counted as righteousness. Christ, the son of God had not yet been revealed.

You are correct that there is a sense in which the object of faith changes as revelation progresses. Abraham believed the revelation he had, and had faith in both God, and the promises of God which he possessed from oral revelation that had been passed down. Today, the amount of revelation we have is increased. We have the revelation of the prophets of Israel. Added to this is the revelation written by the apostles of Christ. In this increased revelation, more is revealed about the promise of God, which is Christ. Abraham believed that the promised seed would come. He may not have known that this promised seed would die on the cross and be the Son of God. That had not yet been revealed. Nevertheless, he trusted in Gods promises just as we do today. We have the same faith in God, that Abraham had, our faith has more knowledge, but it is the same faith.

 

[stovebolts]

But it isn't JUST "faith in God" that saves, but believing that Jesus is the son of god (a concept not found in the OT), believing that he was crucified for or sins, died, and was raised again on the third day, and accended into heaven. OT folk would have died outside this knowledge and belief.

What you speak of is a proclamation of what Jesus did for humanity, and while your proclamation is correct, it's founded on faith...

When we speak about how Jesus died, it is very much tied into the OT rites and rituals. The Jews of the day saw this link very clearly and understood it at a very deep level.

 

[Orion]

But they didn't see it as "God's son becoming the sacrifice for sins". Still, did they get into heaven outside a "saving knowledge of Jesus Christ"? "Only by THAT NAME can men be saved!" :gah

 

[Rick W]

Abraham had the faith that God would keep His Promise.
That promise is Jesus Christ.

Orion,
What was the promise from God?

 

[Orion]

So that we are on the same page, and not guessing what the other is thinking, please just post a response, not a question. Thank you!

 

[mondar]

But they didn't see it as "God's son becoming the sacrifice for sins". Still, did they get into heaven outside a "saving knowledge of Jesus Christ"? "Only by THAT NAME can men be saved!" :gah

Orion,
Why did they have to have 100% full knowledge before they could have faith? Christ is part of the Godhead and when Abraham believed God, it is implicit that he also believed in Christ.

One of the promises God gave to Abraham had to do with his "seed." The book of Galatians makes it clear that this seed was Jesus Christ. While Jesus was not specifically and explicitly named at that point in progressive revelation, Jesus was implicitly present in the promise of seed.

Paul, in Galatians 3:8 recognizes what I am saying and said that the gospel was preached in the promise that "all the nations of the earth would be blessed." Abrahams seed would bless the nations and Abraham believed the promise of God concerning his seed was good. Remember that in Genesis 15:6, when it says Abraham believed God, that the question Abraham raised concerned his seed. Will Eliazer of Damascus be his heir, or one born of his own loins?

Again, the book of Galatians makes it clear that Jesus was that seed. Abraham may not have know 100% of all the details, the scriptures do not say that. It merely said he believed God and justification occurred on the basis of that faith. The revelation of Jesus would become explicit many centuries after Abraham, but Abraham believed the promises that implicitly contained the promise of the later savior, Jesus.

I have the feeling you will not accept the scriptural teaching on your question. Galatians addresses your question and does not give a yes or no answer. Rather, it gives the answer that Abraham believed in the promise of God and the NT promise of Christ was implicit within Abraham's promises. Its the same faith, and the same object of faith, but the amount of revelation and knowledge changed. We have a fuller revelation.

 

[Orion]

But Jesus was only "seed" based upon adoption, not actual blood line. but you are right in that one of my points has to do with that the messiah was unnamed, but also, was thought to be something other than Jesus was, which is clearly seen in the fact that there are still MANY Jews in the world today who don't recognize his authority.

I understand the "by faith" thing, but did they know and believe the SAME way that we MUST, in order to be saved? Did they believe in "God sending the Christ, AS God's son, to be sacrificed for the sins of the world, AND be raised again on the third day"? These statements of faith must be made before a person is "born again", . . . . . then be baptized!

 

[stovebolts]

But they didn't see it as "God's son becoming the sacrifice for sins". Still, did they get into heaven outside a "saving knowledge of Jesus Christ"? "Only by THAT NAME can men be saved!" :gah

Hi Orion,

When Paul wrote those words, it helps to keep them in context. Let me address the issue of who's name we are saved by in two sections.

1. When Paul wrote those words, he was speaking to gentiles for a very specific purpose. You see, Caesar Augustus declared, "Salvation is to be found in none other save Augustus, and there is no other name given to men in which they can be saved." . Simply put, Augustus Caesar was declared as the son of a God and in Roman ideology, it was Rome's duty to bring about world peace and they tried through military might. What Paul is saying, is that salvation does not come through Augustus, it comes through the way of Jesus. How does this apply today? Well, if somebody were to say that salvation came through a political person or government, they would be wrong. It's all about who you put your trust in... Now then, who did Abraham and Moses and even David put their trust in? This brings me to my second point.

2. We have to look at God's Covenant Justice. We have the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. Both are based on faith. Stepping back, did Noah go to heaven? How about Adam and Eve?

Hope that helps

BTW, I do not believe that those whom have never heard of the name Jesus are automatically destine to hell.... Every knee will bow, and our Lord will have mercy on whom he chooses to have mercy.

 

[mondar]

But Jesus was only "seed" based upon adoption, not actual blood line.

So Jesus was not a genetic Israelite, born of the tribe of Judah, born of the seed of Abraham? What do you mean here?

but you are right in that one of my points has to do with that the messiah was unnamed, but also, was thought to be something other than Jesus was, which is clearly seen in the fact that there are still MANY Jews in the world today who don't recognize his authority.

The Jews, as a whole must reject the authority of Jesus until the time their hearts are circumcised (Regeneration). The curses of the law must come upon them until that time.
)See Deuteronomy 30:6 and context)

I understand the "by faith" thing, but did they know and believe the SAME way that we MUST, in order to be saved? Did they believe in "God sending the Christ, AS God's son, to be sacrificed for the sins of the world, AND be raised again on the third day"? These statements of faith must be made before a person is "born again", . . . . . then be baptized!

Well, if by the term "believe the SAME way" you mean the same identical content of knowledge, my answer would be no. The content of Abraham's knowledge was less then ours. Remember my statements on progressive revelation? We have a fuller revelation. The amount of revelation changed, but the promises Abraham received were implicitly the same promises. We just have more specific information. I doubt Abraham knew that a cross was to be the means of atonement. But he knew that the seed of Eve, and then the seed of Abraham would bless many nations. No, his knowledge was not specific, but his faith was the same.

As an illustration. My grandfather can believe that John Adams was a rich man. I can believe that John Adams was worth 2 million dollars. I know more specifics about John Adams, but what we believe is the same.

Also, I would question that the gospel can be believed before a person is "born again." I take a regeneration before faith position (but that is a whole different issue).

 

[turnorburn]

Daniel 3:19 Then was Nebuchadnezzar full of fury, and the form of his visage was changed against Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego: therefore he spake, and commanded that they should heat the furnace one seven times more than it was wont to be heated.

20 And he commanded the most mighty men that were in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, and to cast them into the burning fiery furnace.

21 Then these men were bound in their coats, their hosen, and their hats, and their other garments, and were cast into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.

22 Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flames of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.

23 And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.

24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonished, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.

25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

26 Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come hither. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth of the midst of the fire.

27 And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.

28 Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king's word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.

29 Therefore I make a decree, That every people, nation, and language, which speak any thing amiss against the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, shall be cut in pieces, and their houses shall be made a dunghill: because there is no other God that can deliver after this sort.

30 Then the king promoted Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, in the province of Babylon.

That was Jesus in that furnace , what do you suppose the four of them talked about? Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega, be careful not to belittle him.

Isaiah 9: 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

John 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

 

[Orion]

But Jesus was only "seed" based upon adoption, not actual blood line.

So Jesus was not a genetic Israelite, born of the tribe of Judah, born of the seed of Abraham? What do you mean here?

Mary wasn't of the blood line of David. Supposedly, though, Joseph was.

Someone give me a short and decisive answer to how I MUST believe in order to be "born again"!

 

[mondar]

But Jesus was only "seed" based upon adoption, not actual blood line.

So Jesus was not a genetic Israelite, born of the tribe of Judah, born of the seed of Abraham? What do you mean here?

Mary wasn't of the blood line of David. Supposedly, though, Joseph was.

I think I see what your trying to say. Your saying that the baby Jesus was adopted by Joseph? How would that be relative to the subject that Jesus was geneticly Israelite? Mary was not Israelite, born of the tribe of Judah, of the seed of Abraham?

I suspect you are confusing two subjects. Jesus was born of Mary. Mary and Joseph came from different parts of the Davidic line. I forget that story, but some king sinned and the curse was that the genetic line would not come through him. I think that is what you are alluding to. But Jesus genetics were Israelite.

Someone give me a short and decisive answer to how I MUST believe in order to be "born again"!

With all your heart, soul, and mind.

 

[Orion]

mondar, thanks for the thing on Mary.

As for "how I'm saved", I need someone to list the steps NECESSARY for salvation.

 

[Bick]

But Jesus was only "seed" based upon adoption, not actual blood line.

So Jesus was not a genetic Israelite, born of the tribe of Judah, born of the seed of Abraham? What do you mean here?

Mary wasn't of the blood line of David. Supposedly, though, Joseph was.

Someone give me a short and decisive answer to how I MUST believe in order to be "born again"!

MY COMMENTS: My fellow believers, you must research this to get to the truth!

Joseph, the husband of Mary, was the son of Jacob (Matt. 1:16, "And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, Who is called Christ." AV).

Then in Luke 3:23 we read, "And Jesus Himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the Son of Joseph which was [the son] of Heli."

Quoting from the Companion Bible, pp 1440, "as was supposed=as reckoned by law.
Joseph was begotten by Jacob, and was his natural son. He could be the legal son of Heli, therefore, only by marriage with Heli's daughter (Mary), and be reckoned so according to law. It does not say 'begat' in the case of Heli."

The natural line from David is through Nathan. The regal line in Matt.1:5 is shown through Solomon.

THUS both lines became united in Joseph; and thus the Lord being raised from the dead is the one and only heir to the throne of David.

Nothing in the Bible says that Joseph adopted Jesus. Mary was the blood line of David through Nathan.

 

[Bick]

When did Moses or Abraham accept Jesus in order to go to Heaven, as is the only way one can?

MY COMMENTS: First of all, we must realize, Abraham is NOT promised a place in heaven. He was promised a number of things, but not to go to heaven. Thus:

1.) His offspring would be as un-countable as the stars in heaven (Gen. 15:5,6).
He believed the Lord and the Lord reckoned it to him as righteousness. That is, as I see it, Abram did what was right.

2.) He and his descendants would be given the land (Canaan) which we call Palestine. Actually, it is much larger than what we think of Palestine today (read Gen. 15:18-19; 17:8).

3.) He will be the father of many nations, and kings will come from him (Gen. 17:5-6).

4.) The Lord will be the God of Abraham and his descendents (Gen. 17:8).

5.) All nations on the earth will be blessed through Abraham.

In conclusion, Abraham and his offsprings through Isaac and Jacob (Israel) are promised a glorious kingdom with Messiah Jesus as King. This, IMO, is the golden millennial age to come, on the restored earth.