Why ban 'charismatic practices'?

[MrVersatile48]

Baptist Seminary President here defends a ban on even private prayer in tongues:-

http://www.crosswalk.com/news/religiont ... 40968.html

Just time to share that I'd been saved for @ 18 years before I joined the Pentecostals: I was saved thru a church that believed the gifts of the Spirit died once the Bible was written

So when I moved to Wales as a Pentecostal, I met my old Bible class teacher, who gave me the Brethren 'Harvester' magazine to try & 'sort me out'

But their letters column - unusually for them - invited debate @ what the Bible actually teaches @ spiritual gifts, & my letter was instrumental in some assemblies discovering & practising the gifts

OOPS: time runs out here, so let's first say that the Bible speaks of them as GIFTS - see Acts 2, 1 Corinthians 12-14 & Ephesians 4 etc - not temporary loans to be repossessed

It even says, "The gift is for you, your children, your children's children & as many as are afar off"

It also says, 'to as many as believe thru their word'

& the Perfect hasn't come yet, because Jesus hasn't yet returned to Earth: 'evil men will get worse & worse' - so the need for the spiritual gifts is more & more, not less & less

The gifts of the Spirit were given to edify the Body of Christ

& until the instant airlift Rapture rescue of all who love Jesus, the Body of Christ is still on Earth, persecuted more & more & in more need of edifying than ever before

Jesus promised in Mark 16 to work with us in the Great Commission - confirming the faithful preaching of His Word with signs & wonders following

The job is not finished & the Holy Spirit is not 'taken out of the way' till after the Rapture, so the judgements of the time of wrath can be poured out on Earth

So, Southern Baptists, why shoot yourself in the foot? Why try in vain to do God's work without the Spirit's enabling power?

"The eye cannot say to the hand, 'I don't need you'

"Don't grieve/quench the Holy Spirit"

"Test all things: hold on fast to the good"

Hope that helps

God bless!

Ian

 

[cyberjosh]

I don't really fall under the Southern Baptist or Pentecostal categories but yeah trying to ban praying in tongues is stupid. Tongues is a valid gift, and should not be limited in the Church although certainly as Paul points out it can be abused if used out of turn or if it is without interpretation of tongues (because it nullifies edification). But I do agree that some (more radical?) Pentecostal practices should stop (though I don't think every Pentecostal church does this) such as "holy running", "holy laughter", and being "slain in the Spirit." None of these are to be found any where in the Bible and the first two are little more than distractions/mass hysteria, while the latter masquerades as a falling of God's presence in to a euphoric state which is completely unbiblical.

I will defend what the Bible says to the last leg but I will not purport ideas that are non-biblical. All the spiritual gifts mentioned in the NT are very much alive and valid today, and the Church should not try to deny it by saying that some gifts have passed out of usage. At the same time "new spiritual experiences" such as the three I listed above should not be canonized and should be viewed with the utmost caution to see what exactly is going on. God's true gifts are all for a purpose, and they are given to us to fulfill the Law of Christ (the law of love), a.k.a. for edification of the Body of saints (the Church).

 

[D46]

No "Holy Laughter", cyber? Just wait till I tell Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland about this!! :-D

 

[cyberjosh]

No "Holy Laughter", cyber? Just wait till I tell Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland about this!!

Is Kenneth Copeland into that stuff? Of course I really don't know much about him other than he was in a cool christian cowboy movie that I used to love watching when I was a kid called Covenant Rider.

 

[D46]

Is Kenneth Copeland into that stuff? Of course I really don't know much about him other than he was in a cool christian cowboy movie that I used to love watching when I was a kid called Covenant Rider.

Oh, yes. So was Kenneth Hagin and the rest of the TBN crowd...these guys are the reason I never wanted my picture on the cover of Charisma Magazine!!
:-D

Other supporters of the Laughing Revival are Paul and Jan Crouch (TBN), and Pat Robertson and Ben Kinchlow of The 700 Club, who we will discuss later. Newsletter publisher Tricia Tillin of Great Britain reports that Kenneth Copeland has also spoken out in favor of the "great move of God" occurring today. But instead of focusing only on "the Lord's joy," Copeland predicts ominous future ramifications for the Church. Tillin writes,

"Toronto is rapidly becoming a test of loyalty and doctrinal orthodoxy. Kenneth Copeland, for instance, has suggested that those who resist God's move could fall over and die! 'One of these days, you may just be talking to someone, asking them how things went at church last Sunday, and they may say, Oh it was great! The glory of God was so strong it healed ten cripples, opened the ears of thirty deaf people, cured seven cases of cancer and killed Brother Bigmouth and Sister Strife'(19). A Christian have a vital choice to make, Copeland says:

"'When the fire of God begins to burn and the rivers of the Spirit start to flow, he'll have to do one of two things: he'll either have to yield to the Spirit and let go of that sin by repenting, or he'll have to resist the flood of God's Spirit and be swept away.'

"What is this sin that puts Christians in danger of death? It is resisting the move of God! Those who unite one with another in revival power can 'have a wonderful time' Copeland tells us. After telling the story of Ananias and Sapphira, Copeland says that the Christians in that meeting 'were having such a glorious time that even when Ananias dropped dead right there in front of the preacher, they just went right on worshiping.' The sin of Ananias, in fact, was not lack of submission to his elders or quenching the Spirit, but 'lying to the Holy Spirit' - see Acts 5:2-6 'And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles' feet. But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? You have not lied to men but to God." Then Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and breathed his last. So great fear came upon all those who heard these things. And the young men arose and wrapped him up, carried him out, and buried him.' Not much sign of a Toronto-style meeting in progress there! However, Copeland nonetheless teaches from this passage that those who resist the last-days outpouring are in mortal danger. The message seems plain. Yield or die!

He also says..."What is this sin that puts Christians in danger of death? It is resisting the move of God! Those who unite one with another in revival power can 'have a wonderful time' Copeland tells us. After telling the story of Ananias and Sapphira, Copeland says that the Christians in that meeting 'were having such a glorious time that even when Ananias dropped dead right there in front of the preacher, they just went right on worshiping.'

Right!!

 

[MrVersatile48]

Autologout approaches, so I'll focus on what came to mind before I posted the OP, but left out of it

Paul said, "I wish you all spoke in tongues as I do, but I would rather that you all prophecy" - meaning seek & pass on messages from God - God's Word


1 Corinthians 12 list the gifts in order of importance & urges us, "Earnestly seek the higher gifts, that build up the Body of Christ"

1 Corinthians 12 (New International Version)

Spiritual Gifts

1Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. 2You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. 3Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
4There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.

7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.

11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

12The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. 13For we were all baptized by[c] one Spirit into one bodyâ€â€whether Jews or Greeks, slave or freeâ€â€and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

14Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

21The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" 22On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret?

31But eagerly desire the greater gifts.
And now I will show you the most excellent way.

Words of wisdom & knowledge are the highest - verse 8 - prophecy & healing are rated high too - tongues & interpretation are at the bottom, so let's not focus on them, but seek the highest good of all

Hope that helps

God bless!

Ian

 

[Imagican]

M,

How about this one:

1 Corinthians 13:8

8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Or, this one: 1 Corinthians 14:20-22

20Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

With these two points in mind, what EVIDENCE could you possibly produce to validify the use of 'tongues' TODAY? And what evidence could you possibly produce that validate the 'noise' used today in the guise of 'tongues' ACTUALLY being ANYTHING other than 'noise'?

From ALL evidence offered in The Word, 'tongues' were ACTUAL languages 'unlearned' by the speaker but given, BY GOD, in order for them to be able to communicate The Word to peoples of 'other' languages. So, the indication is that there would NOT always be a 'purpose' for tongues. And that the purpose that they were 'designed' for was OVER by the end of the apostolic era. Once ENOUGH of the peoples of the NEEDED nations were 'taught' the gospel, there would be NO more NEED of tongues.

There have been MANY studies of tongues by numerous differnt persons. MOST have come to the EXACT SAME conclusion, (and many of these ARE Christian and some ARE NOT), and this conclusion is that 'tongues', as used in modern times, are a 'learned' exhibition. Learned from OTHERS that 'speak in tongues'. And that these tongues vary from one church to another but are relatively the 'same' for each individual church. Further illustrating the 'learned' aspect of this behavior. IF tongues were some 'true' language or ligitimate means of communication between men OR God Himself, it would stand to reason that they would ALL resemble something COMMON. Since the ONLY commonality is among specific groups of 'speakers', the overwhelming indication is that they are NOT any specific means of ligitimate communication but a 'learned' behavior.

And considering how adament the churches that 'teach such' ARE concerning the use of tongues, it further indicates the 'reason for the desire' to exhibit such behavior. For many churches teach that speaking in tongues is a 'sign of holy baptism'. Therefore, many feel COMPELLED to speak in tongues in order to 'show' that they have 'been saved'.

Since the Earth has become such a 'small' place in recent history, there is NO obvious reason for the use of tongues any longer. There ARE people of EVERY tongue that have The Holy Bible translated into their native tongue and therefore have NO NEED of this type of communication any longer.

Now, since tongues are NOT for them that 'believe', I offer that a church that accepts and encourages tongues MUST be filled with those that ARE NOT BORN AGAIN and therefore 'do NOT BELIEVE in Christ or His Father. And Paul further adds that HE HIMSELF had rather speak five words that can be understood than ten thousand words in an un-known tongue.

So, at the time, Paul stated that tongues should NOT be forbidden to be spoken. But he refered to TRUE tongues. What we have had a resergence of in the past hundred years, is NOT, in my opinion, the tongues that Paul was refering to. These have been created by men and perpetuated by those that they have so taught. For IF one were to visit one of these 'tongues speaking churches', one QUICKLY witnesses that what is practiced IS NOT what has been offered by Paul. The practicers of this behavior REFUSE to adhere to the guidelines that have been PLAINLY offered and simply ignore the 'rules of tongues' as outlined by Paul in 1 Corinthians. They speak out of order and in groups WITHOUT an interpreter. Women are the MAIN participants in said behavior whilst Paul also states in this SAME letter that women are to remain SILENT in The Church.

So, Charismatic teachings are just another man made institution designed to 'take away from' rather than 'add to ANYTHING' significant as offered by The Spirit. My opinion, of course, but formulated with an open mind and heart. Much research and personal experience has led me to the understanding that I have offered here.

MEC

 

[cyberjosh]

8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Uh huh.... as if the others of have disappeared. The point made is that these are are not eternal, and will probably perish when Christ rules on earth. It is clear though that things such as prophecies will still go on until the end of the age, just read the OT. Not to mention that we have live examples of all these gifts today, whether you would choose to deny it or not.

 

[golfjack]

reply

The key to speaking in tongues is found in Acts 2. Notice this gift is a free gift because it says it is RECEIVED. The 9 gifts of the Spirit are given as God choses.



May God bless, golfjack

 

[SputnikBoy]

Why ban 'charismatic practices' ... ?

Because they are a mockery to God. That's why.