Will you fight ?

[Cornelius]

I am no prophet, but you can later look back at this statement and then decide if it is wrong or not.

America will soon have civil war on its hands. Soon now, you will see that certain people, mostly Christians will be so disillusioned with the government and its immoral actions, that will just bring its people deeper and deeper into debt (amongst other things) that some will want to take up arms against this government "in the Name of God" and all that is good and go and defend their rights (which they were taught they had)

At the moment they are borrowing to pay off that which they have borrowed :crazy

But is it Biblical to take up arms against your government, to fight for Christianity ?

In my country many will do so who call themselves Christians, they are on the far right of politics and weapons and violence and God always goes together for them.


Psa 44:5 Through thee will we push down our adversaries: Through thy name will we tread them under that rise up against us.
Psa 44:6 For I will not trust in my bow, Neither shall my sword save me.

Obviously the Bible teaches that we should submit to our leaders in all things, and not physically take up arms. We are to follow every rule . The only rule we are not to follow are the rules that break God's laws. God's laws come first, then comes the laws of men.

In no case, must we fight with violence. We are called to die for our faith, not to take up arms. We will turn the other cheek and they will take our lives, but we will not submit in bowing the knee to anything that goes against the gospel.
In all human matters, we WILL and must submit, if we want to have God on our side, through all of this. If you go against the government, you will also go against God. He will then be against you.

C

 

[LostSoul]

Cornelius,

I can agree with you to a point in regards of this rather serious matter when it comes to bearing arms against our country. For indeed, it would be a waste of life and more an act of vengence than an act of righteousness.

However, I cannot agree with you on the statement that we are to follow our goverment and obey all the rules, laws, or regulations passed. For did not Daniel disobey his king when it came to praying to God? Was he not too thrown into the lion's den because of it? What of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego?

Think when it comes to the law, we really need to pray and seek God's guidance. At the same time, not be afraid to stand up for what we believe in so long as it does not compromise our faith in some way at the same time. Hence, my statement on the violence being nothing more than an act of vengence.

These are just my thoughts. My apologies for any offense caused. None was meant.

May God Bless You

Danielle

 

[Spiffy]

Surely we do have a right to disobey the government when it commands us to do something God has told us not to do, He is the ultimate authority.

 

[Vic C.]

Oh, this is a volatile subject among Bible believers. :help This subject has much grey area; it isn't a black and white topic.

In all human matters, we WILL and must submit, if we want to have God on our side, through all of this. If you go against the government, you will also go against God. He will then be against you.

I disagree with this statement. Going against certain things the Government does is not always going against God. Also, we should not desire that God be on "our side"; we should always strive to be on God's side!

Here is a situation:

The Government declares Christianity to be illegal. Don't chuckle, it has happened in many countries. You, your wife and family are being held for violating said law. You are told your family will die if you do not renounce your Faith. You however, are promised to not be hurt. But in this case you have an opportunity to defend yourself and it may require the use of violence. There's a good chance you and your family make it out alive. There is also the chance you all may die if unsuccessful.

What do you do? Do you cave in just to save your family and deny God at the same time? That seems very selfish. Do you refuse to renounce and watch your family die all because you believe "turn the other cheek" is applicable in this scenario? That seems a bit selfish also. Or, do you fight to live or die as a family of faith?

On the matter of the Second Amendment; we have by means of a law of the land to bear arms to protect ourselves as citizens, protect ourselves from forces both outside and inside! So if we are to obey the laws of our Government, that applies here too, doesn't it? We are here in the USA, enjoying our freedom that we say is God-given, all because a few very brave men stood up against the tyranny of their Government. Many of these people were indeed Bible believing, God-fearing people.

 

[destiny]

We are here in the USA, enjoying our freedom that we say is God-given, all because a few very brave men stood up against the tyranny of their Government. Many of these people were indeed Bible believing, God-fearing people.

I agree but can see that we are bringing about our own persecution through apathy and misguided submission to special interest groups and corrupt government affairs. We are already headed that way because we haven't been good stewards of our freedom. But..it's really all rooted in our spiritual condition as a nation.

 

[Vic C.]

I agree but can see that we are bringing about our own persecution through apathy and misguided submission to special interest groups and corrupt government affairs. We are already headed that way because we haven't been good stewards of our freedom. But..it's really all rooted in our spiritual condition as a nation.

Sister, it sounds as though we are in need of a revival and a revolution!

< insert appropriate squirrel photo here > :D

 

[Ret]

Fight for rights....what rights? scripture says...
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: KJV

Proverbs 29:25 The fear of man bringeth a snare:
but whoso putteth his trust in the LORD shall be safe. KJV

 

[copper25]

Here is a situation:

The Government declares Christianity to be illegal. Don't chuckle, it has happened in many countries. You, your wife and family are being held for violating said law. You are told your family will die if you do not renounce your Faith. You however, are promised to not be hurt. But in this case you have an opportunity to defend yourself and it may require the use of violence. There's a good chance you and your family make it out alive. There is also the chance you all may die if unsuccessful.

Why would one ever use violence which contradicts the teachings of Christ?

Matthew 5:39) But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Christ tought non violence so why should we subject to violence if Christ said don't and plus look at this servere warning in Romans 13

Romans 13:2) Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Now if someone ask us to do something contraditing the bible and God, then we should not do it, lest we displease God and as it is written,

James 1:12) Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

The world wants us to submit to immorality, but we know that no immoral person shall inherit the kingdom of God according to Ephesians 5:5, Galatians 5:19-21, and 1 Corinthians 6:9, so we should not by any means submit to immorality

What do you do? Do you cave in just to save your family and deny God at the same time? That seems very selfish. Do you refuse to renounce and watch your family die all because you believe "turn the other cheek" is applicable in this scenario? That seems a bit selfish also. Or, do you fight to live or die as a family of faith?

On the matter of the Second Amendment; we have by means of a law of the land to bear arms to protect ourselves as citizens, protect ourselves from forces both outside and inside! So if we are to obey the laws of our Government, that applies here too, doesn't it? We are here in the USA, enjoying our freedom that we say is God-given, all because a few very brave men stood up against the tyranny of their Government. Many of these people were indeed Bible believing, God-fearing people.

If someone were to kill us or our family, this would be sad but the bible does say this

1 Peter 4:16) Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

The apostles all lived a hard life at times because they stood for the faith, preaching it, and at the same time dealing with adversity on all sides. Many Christains were killed through out history for the faith and because they kept it. The question is our we willing to risk everything, and I mean everything.

 

[Cornelius]

Oh, this is a volatile subject among Bible believers. :help This subject has much grey area; it isn't a black and white topic.

In all human matters, we WILL and must submit, if we want to have God on our side, through all of this. If you go against the government, you will also go against God. He will then be against you.

I disagree with this statement. Going against certain things the Government does is not always going against God. Also, we should not desire that God be on "our side"; we should always strive to be on God's side!

Here is a situation:

The Government declares Christianity to be illegal. Don't chuckle, it has happened in many countries. You, your wife and family are being held for violating said law. You are told your family will die if you do not renounce your Faith. You however, are promised to not be hurt. But in this case you have an opportunity to defend yourself and it may require the use of violence. There's a good chance you and your family make it out alive. There is also the chance you all may die if unsuccessful.

What do you do? Do you cave in just to save your family and deny God at the same time? That seems very selfish. Do you refuse to renounce and watch your family die all because you believe "turn the other cheek" is applicable in this scenario? That seems a bit selfish also. Or, do you fight to live or die as a family of faith?

On the matter of the Second Amendment; we have by means of a law of the land to bear arms to protect ourselves as citizens, protect ourselves from forces both outside and inside! So if we are to obey the laws of our Government, that applies here too, doesn't it? We are here in the USA, enjoying our freedom that we say is God-given, all because a few very brave men stood up against the tyranny of their Government. Many of these people were indeed Bible believing, God-fearing people.

Somebody mentioned Daniel:

Daniel respected the government of the day and submitted. He only refused to bow to an idol , which was against God's law. We are to obey God's law first.

If God says Obey your government (which He does ) that too is His law. When the government breaks God's laws and asks you to follow, you then refuse and then you have to place your destiny fully in God's hands. Like Daniel did. He obeyed God and man, then disobeyed man because man asked him to break God's laws. The he went (without fighting) to face the consequences . But never did he not trust God.

Trusting God brings you to the safety of Psalm 91.

If we take up arms to defend our rights, the Bible has a consequence for that as well.God knew that Christians will break His law and take up arms to defend themselves:

Mat 26:52 ............all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

All of us will see this soon. As Christians take up arms against the government, that government is going to take up arms against them too. Satan has been getting ready for this rebellion. FEMA camps are springing up in the USA where millions can be kept. The rulers of our time is wise to this thought in Christianity (they too read forums) and have prepared well.

You have a right to defend yourself in the USA, but it is not a LAW. It does not say you HAVE to shoot and kill.

blessings

 

[Cornelius]

People always want to use this scripture to say that Jesus said its OK to have a sword. But they do not read the whole thing. It gives the reason why He said that . It says ......"FOR".....and then follows the reason.


Luk 22:36 And he said unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise a wallet; and he that hath none, let him sell his cloak, and buy a sword.
Luk 22:37 For I say unto you, that this which is written must be fulfilled in me,

So what must be fulfilled? It must be fulfilled that He would be reckoned with the TRANSGRESSORS. Those who transgress the law of "turn the other cheek" will have swords

And he was reckoned with transgressors: for that which concerneth me hath fulfilment.


Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors: yet he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Again, history will repeat, when those who do not take up the sword, will be counted amongst the transgressors. The One Word Order, will make no distinction between Christians with weapons and Christians without. ALL Christians, as a result of this rebellion against God's ways, will result in the persecution and elimination of Christians world wide.

Because we will not submit to united Religions, we will be world enemy no one. Christians will be labeled at resisters and terrorist that stand in the way of world peace. They will be looking for a reason to round us all up.

Those with guns, will finally give them the reason they are looking for.

C

 

[Ret]

Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors: yet he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Again, history will repeat,....

The first mention of Saul/Paul is at the stoning of Stephen, in Acts 7:58-60. Seeking to do 'God's will' Saul(Paul) began to persecute the christians (his religious brothers) and had been quite successful till...the Damascus journey, where the voice interrupts his religious ambitions, and he is given the heavenly vision of another direction. (Begins in Acts 8, retold in Acts 22) Saul, vigorously doing what he had been taught through the priest and leaders did have a zeal for the law, but was still ignorant of God's righteousness as revealed in His Son.

Acts 3:17
"And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers did also.

1 Corinthians 2:7-8
7 but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; 8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;

1 Timothy 1:13
13 even though I [Paul] was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief;

Bible quotes in red from NASU w/ emphasis supplied by Ret

May the God of heaven above and earth below give me/us to forgive the christian brother who, in the fear of God, takes up arms...all in the name of God....that God grant the death of my natural life, like Stephen, be the means of sowing the seed of a better life to another...Amen
Ret.

 

[Cornelius]

Amen Ret.

This will happen and happen soon. Many of our Christian brothers and sisters are ready to take up arms and many will suffer and die, because of this.

Our physical lives are not what it is about at all.

Bless you
your brother
C

 

[Captain Sarcastic]

Surely we do have a right to disobey the government when it commands us to do something God has told us not to do, He is the ultimate authority.

Spiffy is right on all these points...and we must be prepared to pay the consequences for our stance. Like in the book of Acts, when the authorities forbade the believers from preaching in Jesus's name. They were beaten and thrown out of the city...but God laid it on their hearts to return to "the scene of the crime," and many souls were saved. :shades This all goes hand-in-hand with Jesus's teaching of "counting the cost."

 

[destiny]

I think there will be different sects, factions and individual Christians doing different things in the times that are coming. I don't feel they will be doing these things necessarily because they are Christians, but in spite of.
I feel the time to fight back through our voice as the people of a Republic has past, and now the spirit of antichrist is in power throughout the world. The ideal would be otherwise, but I don't see it happening that way by observation or scripture. We are interring into a time in which we will be persecuted for Jesus' name sake. I believe we will have to go into hiding and depend on the Lord to sustain us, no matter what we are required to walk through.
The bible also tells us those without the mark will no longer be able to buy, sell or trade, so we will have to depend on God completely or either join the worlds order and turn away from Him. These things are at the door. I am sure some will take up arms against the government, but I believe ammunition will be outlawed soon because a police officer relative of ours said in the near future they will be using a new type of bullet that has only a 3 month shelf life, and then they are no good.
This tells me that ammunition will be obsolete for the common citizens. This isn't "doomsay" really. The word of God has already told us what to expect as believers, and where our help comes form.

 

[LostSoul]

Somebody mentioned Daniel:

Daniel respected the government of the day and submitted. He only refused to bow to an idol , which was against God's law. We are to obey God's law first.

If God says Obey your government (which He does ) that too is His law. When the government breaks God's laws and asks you to follow, you then refuse and then you have to place your destiny fully in God's hands. Like Daniel did. He obeyed God and man, then disobeyed man because man asked him to break God's laws. The he went (without fighting) to face the consequences . But never did he not trust God.

Trusting God brings you to the safety of Psalm 91.

If we take up arms to defend our rights, the Bible has a consequence for that as well.God knew that Christians will break His law and take up arms to defend themselves:

Mat 26:52 ............all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

All of us will see this soon. As Christians take up arms against the government, that government is going to take up arms against them too. Satan has been getting ready for this rebellion. FEMA camps are springing up in the USA where millions can be kept. The rulers of our time is wise to this thought in Christianity (they too read forums) and have prepared well.

You have a right to defend yourself in the USA, but it is not a LAW. It does not say you HAVE to shoot and kill.

blessings

Cornelius...

I am sorry but again I must disagree with you. Daniel was not present at the time of worship of an idol. That was Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. Daniel was told he could not longer pray to God in accordance to a law made by his king at the time. Did he obey it? No. He continued to pray to God on a daily basis and was thrown into the lion's den for it. Daniel chapter six reveals such unto us. Although I do believe violence should not be something we use in which to stand against our governed authorities...can we not still fight the good fight for God without bloodshed?

Daniel 6

1. It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the whole kingdom; 2. And over these three presidents; of whom Daniel [was] first: that the princes might give accounts unto them, and the king should have no damage. 3. Then this Daniel was preferred above the presidents and princes, because an excellent spirit [was] in him; and the king thought to set him over the whole realm. 4. Then the presidents and princes sought to find occasion against Daniel concerning the kingdom; but they could find none occasion nor fault; forasmuch as he [was] faithful, neither was there any error or fault found in him. 5. Then said these men, We shall not find any occasion against this Daniel, except we find [it] against him concerning the law of his God. 6. Then these presidents and princes assembled together to the king, and said thus unto him, King Darius, live for ever. 7. All the presidents of the kingdom, the governors, and the princes, the counsellors, and the captains, have consulted together to establish a royal statute, and to make a firm decree, that whosoever shall ask a petition of any God or man for thirty days, save of thee, O king, he shall be cast into the den of lions. 8. Now, O king, establish the decree, and sign the writing, that it be not changed, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not. 9. Wherefore king Darius signed the writing and the decree. 10. Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime. 11. Then these men assembled, and found Daniel praying and making supplication before his God. 12. Then they came near, and spake before the king concerning the king's decree; Hast thou not signed a decree, that every man that shall ask [a petition] of any God or man within thirty days, save of thee, O king, shall be cast into the den of lions? The king answered and said, The thing [is] true, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not. 13. Then answered they and said before the king, That Daniel, which [is] of the children of the captivity of Judah, regardeth not thee, O king, nor the decree that thou hast signed, but maketh his petition three times a day. 14. Then the king, when he heard [these] words, was sore displeased with himself, and set [his] heart on Daniel to deliver him: and he laboured till the going down of the sun to deliver him. 15. Then these men assembled unto the king, and said unto the king, Know, O king, that the law of the Medes and Persians [is], That no decree nor statute which the king establisheth may be changed. 16. Then the king commanded, and they brought Daniel, and cast [him] into the den of lions. [Now] the king spake and said unto Daniel, Thy God whom thou servest continually, he will deliver thee. 17. And a stone was brought, and laid upon the mouth of the den; and the king sealed it with his own signet, and with the signet of his lords; that the purpose might not be changed concerning Daniel. 18. Then the king went to his palace, and passed the night fasting: neither were instruments of musick brought before him: and his sleep went from him. 19. Then the king arose very early in the morning, and went in haste unto the den of lions. 20. And when he came to the den, he cried with a lamentable voice unto Daniel: [and] the king spake and said to Daniel, O Daniel, servant of the living God, is thy God, whom thou servest continually, able to deliver thee from the lions? 21. Then said Daniel unto the king, O king, live for ever. 22. My God hath sent his angel, and hath shut the lions' mouths, that they have not hurt me: forasmuch as before him innocency was found in me; and also before thee, O king, have I done no hurt. 23. Then was the king exceeding glad for him, and commanded that they should take Daniel up out of the den. So Daniel was taken up out of the den, and no manner of hurt was found upon him, because he believed in his God. 24. And the king commanded, and they brought those men which had accused Daniel, and they cast [them] into the den of lions, them, their children, and their wives; and the lions had the mastery of them, and brake all their bones in pieces or ever they came at the bottom of the den. 25. Then king Darius wrote unto all people, nations, and languages, that dwell in all the earth; Peace be multiplied unto you. 26. I make a decree, That in every dominion of my kingdom men tremble and fear before the God of Daniel: for he [is] the living God, and stedfast for ever, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed, and his dominion [shall be even] unto the end. 27. He delivereth and rescueth, and he worketh signs and wonders in heaven and in earth, who hath delivered Daniel from the power of the lions. 28. So this Daniel prospered in the reign of Darius, and in the reign of Cyrus the Persian.

These are just my thoughts in accordance to what is or has been written in scripture. My apologies for any offense caused.

May God Bless You

Danielle

 

[Cornelius]

Daniel was told he could not longer pray to God in accordance to a law made by his king at the time. Did he obey it? No. He continued to pray to God on a daily basis and was thrown into the lion's den for it. Daniel chapter six reveals such unto us. Although I do believe violence should not be something we use in which to stand against our governed authorities...can we not still fight the good fight for God without bloodshed?

Danielle

That is what I am saying.

we are to submit to God first, and if that submission takes us to our death, we must go to our death. Daniel followed the laws, but did not follow the law of the country, when it interfered with what God wanted from him. He did NOT fight them with a sword, he just got up and willingly went to the lion's den. He trusted God and not a sword.

We have to also note: His trust in God paid off.......he was protected.

His friends also went willingly to the furnace: They too survived...............they were protected.

Please note that in both cases, other people died, and they lived. The same pattern will be in our day.

 

[Cornelius]

Surely we do have a right to disobey the government when it commands us to do something God has told us not to do, He is the ultimate authority.

Spiffy is right on all these points...and we must be prepared to pay the consequences for our stance. Like in the book of Acts, when the authorities forbade the believers from preaching in Jesus's name. They were beaten and thrown out of the city...but God laid it on their hearts to return to "the scene of the crime," and many souls were saved. :shades This all goes hand-in-hand with Jesus's teaching of "counting the cost."

That is correct. The disciples never again used any violence to protect themselves. Paul were beaten, stoned and left for dead, put into prison etc. Never did he ever take up a sword to defend himself.
We have become "modern Christians" that believe that we have other "rights" these days. In fact, we still have the same rights Christians have always had........no rights at all, except the right to serve God. We have to lay down our lives. Christ needs to live in us.

C