Willow Creek's confession

[RND]

From the article:

Recently, Willow Creek published the results of their 2004 congregational survey entitled, Reveal: Where are You? The surprising results required the study’s authors, including executive pastor Greg Hawkins, to tell senior pastor Bill Hybels (pictured below) that “the church isn’t as effective as we’d thought.†In the Forward to the report, Bill Hybels makes an astonishing [and I think humble] admission, “…parts of the research did not shine brightly on our church. Among the findings, nearly one out of every four people at Willow Creek were stalled in their spiritual growth or dissatisfied with the churchâ€â€and many of them were considering leaving.â€Â

In the report, Willow Creek acknowledges that they have long-employed the “The Church Activity Model for Spiritual Growth.†Essentially, the premise was that as “a person far from God participates in church activities†they will eventually become “a person who loves God and loves others.†Now, this could mean any activity--whether it be directing traffic in the parking lot or volunteering in the nursery. I call this the “faith by osmosis†aproachâ€â€the idea that as long as people are in the church environment, they will grow spiritually.

 

[strathyboy]

There are any number of comments one could make on this article. Perhaps most concerning (although certainly not uncommon) is the focus on that particular church building, and the essentially business model used to gauge effectiveness. If a single person came to Christ, then that particular church building was effective, in my mind, and they were able to bring hundreds or thousands to Christ. More important is the worldwide growth of the church, and they did their part. A focus needs to be kept on God and the bigger picture, not on getting numbers and revenue up.

 

[mondar]

From the article:
...Among the findings, nearly one out of every four people at Willow Creek were stalled in their spiritual growth or dissatisfied with the churchâ€â€and many of them were considering leaving.â€Â

I dont know how they did this study. I assumed that they used questionnaires or surveys of the people attending. The study is interpreted that 1/4 of the people are dissatisfied and are considering leaving. The conclusion that the interpreters of the study made was that this dissatisfaction means that people are not growing spiritually. I dont see that this is necessarily a valid conclusion. Dissatisfaction can come for many reasons. Were the people of Israel dissatisfied with Isaiah's ministry? Where the people of Judah happy with Jeremiah's ministry? If people are dissatisfied for the wrong reasons, that would not necessarily imply that the Church ministries are a failure. On the other hand, it is not necessarily an indicator of success. What do the 1/4 of dissatisfied

It raises the question of spiritual growth. What is it, and how can you measure it? Is it even a measurable goal? I am not sure that spiritual growth is quantitative and measurable.

The scripture says that the word of God is powerful, able to pierce the spirit and soul asunder. It is a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path. The scripture will cause "that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." The word of God, when interpreted correctly, sanctifies. In James 1 we see that trials can cause patience, patience maturity, and maturity wisdom. So then do not trials (when mixed with faith) cause spiritual growth. Certainly the scripture and the sovereignty of God have a place in sanctification. A Church cannot (or at least should not... ;) ) bring the trials, but they can have leaders who are "apt to teach." Leaders should be skilled in teaching the word. Could it be that the Willow Creek Community Church did just as they said and focused too much upon programs... and not enough on that which sanctifies... the word of God?

I dont know, there are no easy answers.

 

[RND]

I think the article is helpful in simply understanding that no church is immune from having problems.
I think the issue with Willow Creek is that they, along with hundreds of other "big churches," have been more interested in "growth" that they have been interested in truth.

By the church's own admission they are the ones who did the surveys and complied the studies so they must have known even years ago that there were problems. Yet these articles were not posted to lay blame on anyone particular church but to demonstrate a huge problem in all of Christendom.

My church is no exception. Our 600 member Adventist church has had a dual pastorship for many years until very recently and has adopted many questionable tactics and styles that have all been designed to "grow" the church all with questionable results. The by product of this movement had been stagnant growth and a divided church.

 

[duval]

Whether a church be large or small if its mambers have not obeyed the gospel of Jesus Christ, it is all for O.

 

[YellowcakeMutant]

And this is just more evidence that evangelical church culture in America is losing its credibility. Quite frankly, I have a hard time trusting evangelical churches in general today due to the alarming lack of discernment I see. How could anyone who studies their Bible and understands salvation actually believe that a person would be more likely to become a believer in Christ by physical proximity to the church community? Is the mere influence of other Christians enough to change the human heart? Apparently the folks at Willow Creek believed this to be so. Hopefully they are beginning to see the glaring problem with this.

YM

 

[brakelite2]

I believe spiritual growth is very measurable, if the words of Jesus have any validity. "By their fruit shall ye know them" If our works are any indicator of growth or stagnation, then the answer is simple. Surely that is why we are to be judged by our works, because they are such a true witness to where our hearts are at?

Faith without works, love without law, justification without sanctification are all symptoms of abnormal growth, that could be likened perhaps to induced growth hormones or anabolic spiritual steroids.
Revivals may appeal to the emotions and the feelings, bypassing the mind, and never really reaching the heart. All such growth is unbalanced and cannot be sustained. It results in misshapen spiritual dwarfs and deformed Christianity. It can result in deluding people into thinking they are Christians, thinking they are saved because they experience an emotional high maybe even with tears. These spiritual amphetamines with their artificial high may prove addictive, resulting in worshippers dissatisfied with a simple Bible message, considering it 'boring' because it doesn't stimulate the senses in a sensational way.
To counter this many preachers and pastors have developed into motivational speakers rather than Bible teachers. They use the Bible only sparingly if it agrees with the motivating subject at hand, but accomplishes nothing toward spiritual growth or knowledge of God.

What is most important? 5000 church members who have been swept into church on a tide of "Madison Ave' hype and slick marketing and no spiritual maturity, or 50 church members who have responded to the simplicity of the gospel and are being trained to bring disciples into the kingdom?

Today it is considered "normal" for approx. 50% of baptised converts to apostasize. (Notwithstanding our Calvinist friends). And it is considered "normal" for 50% or less to attend church regularly! Compare this with Acts 2. Are we teaching lies invented by marketing gurus in order to grow our churches or are we relying truly on the power of God to work through the simple message of Christ and Him crucified?

 

[YellowcakeMutant]

What is most important? 5000 church members who have been swept into church on a tide of "Madison Ave' hype and slick marketing and no spiritual maturity, or 50 church members who have responded to the simplicity of the gospel and are being trained to bring disciples into the kingdom?

You've hit the nail on the head. I've been saying for years that I'd rather have a handful of mature, solid, dedicated believers than thousands of infants. Numbers mean absolutely nothing if you have a lot of nothing. Even if I had so many piles of Monopoly money that they filled an entire room, it would still be worthless. One stack of real thousand-dollar bills, on the other hand...

YM

 

[RND]

One stack of real thousand-dollar bills, on the other hand...

Is still "monopoly money"!!!!!!

Good point by both of you however. Real conversion is tangible and noticeable. We become "new."

 

[YellowcakeMutant]

One stack of real thousand-dollar bills, on the other hand...

Is still "monopoly money"!!!!!!

Good point by both of you however. Real conversion is tangible and noticeable. We become "new."

There are no thousand-dollar bills in Monopoly, unless they've changed it.

 

[RND]

There are no thousand-dollar bills in Monopoly, unless they've changed it.

I was referring to the fact that fiat money is as worthless as monopoly money.

 

[knerd]

What is right is not revealed by moral principles. It is revealed by the facts interpreted as best we can for the good of all. To love is to choose as best we can for the good of others and ourselves.

The Church therefore fails when moral rules and not love are at the heart of its teaching and practice.

 

[RND]

What is right is not revealed by moral principles. It is revealed by the facts interpreted as best we can for the good of all. To love is to choose as best we can for the good of others and ourselves.

The Church therefore fails when moral rules and not love are at the heart of its teaching and practice.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

I think a church is a group if individuals with the law of God written on their hearts. To what extent they understand this is only known to God.

 

[knerd]

When there's no firm basis and source of morality we then have "moral relativism". Morality is then becomes the handmaiden of power, money, social status, race or any inequality that gives undue preference in a society.

This tension between moral relativism and its opposite, "authoritative morality", has gone on for ages. Invoking God and Jesus Christ tips the balance to the authoritative side.

Some people avoid using the term "absolute" morality because of its pejorative character. I prefer the term "authoritative morality." I know that what I call "authoritative morality" has often been corrupted by representatives of the church and others with pretensions to representing God, but this fact does not invalidate the idea there is a God-given bedrock of morality that at times may seem obscure and far away but nevertheless exists and endures.