Witchcraft: What it is, what it isn't.

[handy]

There has been much discussion on the board lately about witchcraft. Biblereader shared this video with us:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 8077530223

The video is over an hour, and I really don't have time this afternoon to watch it all.

But, the pastor starts off with the topic of "How can I tell if I am a witch?" His premise is that witchcraft has so taken over the world most people in the United States today are involved with witchcraft and don't even know it.

Jumping off text is Deuteronomy 18:9-14

Intriguing. I can't say at this point whether or not I agree with him, or know whether or not that his premise is biblically based. But, it sounds like a discussion worth having.

Biblereader, perhaps, for those who don't have internet connections that support video, you can give an outline of what this sermon is about.

 

[Malachi45]

If we watch a video for over an hour, we can also become "bewitched". :D

Witchcraft infilitrated into the Body of Christ over 40 years ago, and moved with momentum after 9/11.

The new age leader of the time brought together all religion leaders, including some very suspicious Christian leaders, who have caused more havoc within the Body of Christ than the powers of darkness has.

The new age leader stated that it's time that a new gospel be taught.

Well, know today, we have such be taught through the many watered-down versions of His Word. "The Message" is one fine example of new age and witchcraft in the Church. The new gospel is a "user-friendly" version to make sinners feel comfortable, and not be offended.

Then the church became self-purpose driven, and not Christ-driven.

Then the Church introduces mysticism through such things as prayer soaking and contemplative prayer.

Then the Church introduced other religion practices, their dieties and their demons, believing that if they change its name to "Christian", then it will be harmless.

The the Church allowed practicality to come in through new age and secular thinking, and produce many multi-level marketing practices to make a church viable through temptations via the spirit of mammon.

We could go on, and on, and on.

Yep, witchcraft is doing well within the Body of Christ and so is false teaching.

 

[handy]

OK, this is exactly why I wanted to start this thread. Because I don't agree with this at all.

BTW, Hi there Malachi, :smt006 I'm glad your on board with us, and hope to have many stimulating conversations with you. Sorry to start off by disagreeing with you, I'm sure that what we have in common in the Lord far outweighs any disagreements we have regarding certain issues. :wink:

But, I do disagree that we can just take pretty much everything that we disagree with that's happened in the church for the past few decades and slap "Witchcraft" on it, and call ourselves bewitched.

I think that when God speaks of witchcraft, He is referring to something specific. And, I don't think what He is referring to is things like,. . .me being involved in witchcraft because I put this in my post. :smt074 Or this: :lying:.

So, this is why I wanted to start this thread: To delve into what the Bible teaches us that witchcraft is, rather than run with the idea that anything we don't agree with is witchcraft.

For instance, Rick Warren. To me, he's a bad theologian. But, one will have to come up with far better evidence than what I've seen so far to convince me that he is a warlock.

Again, I haven't watched but a few minutes of the video, so I don't know what the Pastor has to say regarding Deuteronomy, but I know that I would reject the idea (that I've heard elsewhere, not here or in the video) that equates the Canaanites charming practice of burning their children as sacrifices to idols with allowing your kid to dress up as a sheep at Halloween.

We need to be better apologists and theologians than this, hence the desire to examine and see what the Bible has to say regarding the subject.

 

[Biblereader]

God bless you, Malachi, for being strong and brave enough to stand up against all the
evil in here. You will find many battles to fight. Be strong. Most in here will disagree with every point you've made, and fight you on it!

If we watch a video for over an hour, we can also become "bewitched". :D

Witchcraft infilitrated into the Body of Christ over 40 years ago, and moved with momentum after 9/11.

The new age leader of the time brought together all religion leaders, including some very suspicious Christian leaders, who have caused more havoc within the Body of Christ than the powers of darkness has.

The new age leader stated that it's time that a new gospel be taught.

Well, know today, we have such be taught through the many watered-down versions of His Word. "The Message" is one fine example of new age and witchcraft in the Church. The new gospel is a "user-friendly" version to make sinners feel comfortable, and not be offended.

Then the church became self-purpose driven, and not Christ-driven.

Then the Church introduces mysticism through such things as prayer soaking and contemplative prayer.

Then the Church introduced other religion practices, their dieties and their demons, believing that if they change its name to "Christian", then it will be harmless.

The the Church allowed practicality to come in through new age and secular thinking, and produce many multi-level marketing practices to make a church viable through temptations via the spirit of mammon.

We could go on, and on, and on.

Yep, witchcraft is doing well within the Body of Christ and so is false teaching.

 

[Biblereader]

[quote="handy"


Again, I haven't watched but a few minutes of the video, so I don't know what the Pastor has to say regarding Deuteronomy, but I know that I would reject the idea (that I've heard elsewhere, not here or in the video) that equates the Canaanites charming practice of burning their children as sacrifices to idols with allowing your kid to dress up as a sheep at Halloween.

.[/quote]

You really should watch the video. It's only an hour's worth usually devoted to television.
Just think of it as the same amount of time spent watching 2 half hour tv shows.

 

[Biblereader]

Handy, what is witchcraft to you?

 

[destiny]

<< Galatians 3 >>
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Paul calls the Galatians 'bewitched' because they weren't obeying the truth- the truth that they had previously been taught. Witchcraft isn't always in conjuring up something satanic, it can be a wrong spirit working through someone- just as Paul addressed it at that capacity.
The church is rife with witchcraft.

Matthew 13:24-28
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this.

This woman sounded like a 'believer' yet Paul discerned something else..
Acts 16:16-18
16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

We have people doing the same thing today under the guise of being "prophetic".

 

[handy]

Whoops, my apologies! I started this thread, then went off to a school board meeting and then found I'm called in to work tomorrow. Hopefully, on Wednesday, I can give this thread the attention it deserves and also watch the video. And, I promise I do intend to watch that video!

 

[Malachi45]

Disagreement in anything can only come from not setting the correct foundation of what is being discussed.

Witchcraft is the art or practices of a witch through sorcery, magic, magical influence or witchery.

A witch is a person, especially a woman who professes or is supposed to practice magic, especially black magic or the black art; a sorceress.

Sorcery is the art or practices, or spells of a sorcerer; magic, especially balck magic in which supernatural powers are exercised through the aid of evil spirits; withcraft.

Magic the art of producing effects claimed to be beyond the natural human power and arrived at by means of supernatural agencies or through command of occult forces in nature

Magical employed in magic through magic spells or magic rites.

Witchery the use or practice of witchcraft or magic, and magical influence.

Now that is how I define "witchcraft"! :crazyeyes:

 

[handy]

That sounds like a good foundation of definition to me!

I feel bad that I still haven't watched the video. I got caught up in discussing (OK, OK debating) the divinity of Christ, and that debate took precedence for the past couple of days. I do, really do, want to watch the video and discuss it.

Malachi, I define witchcraft the way you do. To me, it's a real thing, not an idea. I believe that in the Old Testament, and I'll have to search for the reference witchcraft and rebellion were equated. The reason why witchcraft and rebellion are equal is because both set their face against God and seek after Satan instead. In high school, one of the guys I knew pretty well (though he wasn't a 'friend') was a Satanist. He practiced dark things, used the Ouija board, (used, not 'played with'), and did incantations. He was, up until he committed suicide, a witch, although he didn't call himself a witch, but rather a Satanist. But, nonetheless, he practiced witchcraft. He even told one of the Christian guys at school that he was going to curse him. The Christian just shrugged his shoulders and said, "Yeah, well, greater is He that is in me, buddy."


That's why I kind of roll my eyes when I hear folks equate dressing up for Trick-or-Treat with witchcraft.

But, I do need to watch this video and see what the pastor had to say on the subject.

 

[Malachi45]

Hi Handy,

I haven't watched the video, and actually I won't be bothered. I've seen enough for my life, and many of these videos only confuse the issues even further.

By the way the word you were look for was "lawlessness", which is the spirit of witchcraft, and there is much of that in many of the churches these days.

But, I won't go there either.

 

[handy]

I know that this is going to sound like I'm being hopelessly nitpicky, but . . .

Lawlessness isn't the spirit of witchcraft.

The text reads:

1 Sameul 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king. (KJV)

The text doesn't mention a 'spirit' of witchcraft, as if there is a specific demon running around named "Witchcraft" and this demon is the one responsible for turning people into witches. I say this because a lot of folks do believe that there are spirits (demons) who are the personification of different sins such as alcohol (the Demon Rum). I don't find that notion at all Biblical. I think it may have been born out of the temprerenc movement.

The text simply compares witchcraft with rebellion stating that rebellion is just as bad as witchcraft is.

 

[handy]

Interesting. Malachi, I found this on the web from a guy in your neck of the woods by the name of John Ally. Here is his teaching on these personified 'spirits'.

A description of how the progressive influence of a spirit of Jezebel or Lawlessness over a person and a church can often occur:
A person may be a true believer in Jesus, saved and baptised. They might look like someone who is clean, but actually have a spiritual problem that has found it's way into their life in some way.The problem may be that they have an insecurity, or a need to be accepted by others, or a need to be right, envy, jealousy or pride, etc. _This person may have prayer, faith, gifts of the Holy Spirit, prophecy - and it's all good until they are motivated by this impure thing in their heart - then it is evil. It may only be a little bit - like arsenic where a single small dose does not harm - but it's still evil and it gives the enemy an opening. The Jezebel spirit sees the weakness in their life, and uses a lie to whisper into the heart of a susceptible person things such as: "You deserve better," or "They should have listened to you when you brought that prophecy," or "You're more spiritual than most of the people around here." _If the person accepts the lie and allows it to become their own thought, unaware that it was from a lying spirit, they start to think things such as: "I'm a very spiritual person," or "I should be a leader," or "I should have authority in this church." _By accepting lie after lie, the spirit builds influence in the person's life. _Sometimes the person does not know that their spirit is wrong, and the things they speak are evil. They start to speak things that have a 'sly' evil, causing harm and destruction and all the while think that they are living for Jesus. There are other people who come to know that they are wrong, but their pride will not allow them to admit it. They cross a line, where they are knowingly doing wrong. From the outside, there may not be any visible difference between this kind of person and a normal Christian. They have a 'face', a spiritual mask - behind it is a lie. They are not 'transparent' like we are meant to be - open and honest with one another so that we can see the purity of one another's motives. They become motivated by another spirit. It may be a Jezebel spirit, or an Absalom spirit. A person motivated by a Jezebel spirit wants recognition, wants to control, and begins to manipulate the circumstances around their life and the church. When a person with this in them comes to a church, they are very 'well behaved'. _As they make friends and become involved in church ministries, and become close to the leader of that ministry, one of the things they do is to make the person who is over them dependant on them through helping and service or by meeting the emotional need of that person. The spirit of Jezebel often has behind it a spirit of divination, and will often gain entrance in the form of the prophetic.The spirit of divination is puffed up where there is pride. _Through the opening of hearts, the spirit of this person starts to 'infect' people around them. By the use of flattery over time, the leader becomes blind to their spirit. The leader will start to suffer the stings of witchcraft: e.g. oppression, sickness (or their wife may fall sick), loss of vision, confusion, weakness, despair, lack of motivation, etc, etc. Once it gets a foothold in the leader, it has entrance to the church. So the church starts to experience oppression, confusion etc. (Peace Apostolic Ministries http://www.peace.org.au/drupal/node/123)

The only thing is, did you notice how he did not add one reference to the Bible in any of this to show the veracity of his theory here. Most likely, the reason he didn't is because this idea isn't Biblical. As a matter of fact, there is nothing in the Bible to indicate that a true believer, one who is indwelled by the Holy Spirit would also be indwelled by a 'spirit' such as this. There is every indication that someone who is indwelled by the Spirit would NOT be indwelled by a 'spirit' such as this, and there is no 'spirit' of Jezebel or Absalom in the Bible anyway. This is out and out false teaching.

 

[Malachi45]

I know that this is going to sound like I'm being hopelessly nitpicky, but . . .

Lawlessness isn't the spirit of witchcraft.

The text reads:

1 Sameul 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king. (KJV)

The text doesn't mention a 'spirit' of witchcraft, as if there is a specific demon running around named "Witchcraft" and this demon is the one responsible for turning people into witches. I say this because a lot of folks do believe that there are spirits (demons) who are the personification of different sins such as alcohol (the Demon Rum). I don't find that notion at all Biblical. I think it may have been born out of the temprerenc movement.

The text simply compares witchcraft with rebellion stating that rebellion is just as bad as witchcraft is.

Sorry Handy, but anyone in my books rejects the Word of the Lord is acting under "lawlessness", which is rebellion.

I never said anything about the spirit of witchcraft being a specific demon running around named "witchcraft". Witchcraft is a practice.

Anyway, Handy you believe whatever you want to believe, because that's your choice and decision, and if anyone says to me that it's a spirit of witchcraft or a spirit of alcohol in a person, then who cares anyway, the most important thing is to ensure that they are delivered from evil, and set free from captivity.

 

[handy]

Malachi,

I know that you never said that there were such 'spirits'. I 'nitpicked' about that simply because there are so many who do have this perception of witchcraft. You and I are in agreement that witchcraft is a practice.

I also agree that the most important thing is to set folks free from evil, however it's how we approach it. There is a lot of things happening in the church right now that are foolish, if not downright dangerous, because it is based upon faulty reasoning and bad theology. When I was about 14, I was present when some elders of a church, one of whom was my best friend's dad, annointed oil on a young girl my age and prayed that the 'spirit of cancer be cast out of her body'. She died. The prayers were not effective as they were based on the lie that cancer is a 'spirit'. Now, I don't think that God caused that girl to die just because the elders of her church were acting ignorantly. But, she didn't receive the comfort of having the effective prayer either. (She was a believer though, and I know that she went to be with the Lord and was finally released from a body so riddled with cancer that it was nothing more than a horrible prison for her. Death was actully a good thing.) Being a babe in Christ, and being young, I struggled for a long time with thinking that prayer is no good. Prayer is an awesome weapon against the forces of darkness. But, like any weapon, it has to be used correctly. Those elders, although their hearts were in the right place, were wrong in how they prayed for that girl, trying to cast out a demon when she was a Christian girl who loved the Lord but was sick with cancer.

If someone is actually possessed by evil spirits and we come along and say something to the effect of "Spirit of Jezebel, come out of this person" then we are messing around in ignorance and that can be dangerous as well. We need to be smarter than that and base what we do in truth.

Lawlessness (rebellion) is rampant, but not all lawlessness is witchcraft, although surely all witchcraft is lawlessness. The problem, (at least here in the states, maybe you Aussies have a better handle on it!) is that too often Christians are blurring the lines of what is what. I've heard Rick Warren (the Purpose Driven guy) be compared to a witch. Warren isn't a witch. He's a bad theologian. But, he is not a witch. We need to make these distinctions.

 

[Malachi45]

I agree with what you say, and I know John Ally personally. And I've always had a large question mark over his teaching---always?

Our Lord Jesus Christ puts us in a seat of a church and we suffer at the hands of the enemy as we sit there in obedience. False teaching is so subtle.

As sad as it is, many have suffered at the hands of false teachers, that is, deceived and seduced teachers who have been snared by the fowler through the doctrine of demons. Hillsong is a fine example of falseness, deception and seduction.

I am continually under spiritual attack, and suffer as those weapons come against me. I keep fighting a good fight of faith and send those weapons back to them and allow our Lord Jesus Christ to condemn their spoken words and fiery darts.

You just keep speaking out in His Glorious Name, and His Kingdom will be done.