Ye old disputes

[Sparkey]

CONTENTIONS and FIRE:
CONTEXT: 48 "But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

49 "I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!

50 "But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished!

51 "Do [you] suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division. 52 "For from now on five in one house will be divided: three against two, and two against three. 53 "Father will be divided against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law."

[Luk 12:48-53 NKJV]

That part, "and how I wish it were already kindled..." has been translated differently too.

Strong's G5101 may be found in similar sayings in many places.
Here's the link to the Lexicon of its use:

How I wish (NKJV) -and/or- What shall I (KJV) << ---- click for a quick reference so that we may scroll and speed read other uses of similar focus.

It is my contention that we are to be found doing our Father's work and that we already know that Blessed are the Peacemakers! Shall we arm ourselves in battle, one against another, with the sure knowledge that Iron sharpens Iron?

Perhaps we should. We are told to study to show ourselves approved. We are already predisposed toward seeking approval. But do we truly want the approval of man? Or is it something larger we seek. When flesh rises against flesh, and that between brethren, called of God? What influence on our "battles" may be seen in action.

Where do we find the blessing? Is it not spoken of in Psalm 133? Again in the beatitudes found in the sermon on the Mount? Right now, there are times when we are found in places where one is expected to mature and grow and go past goy tradition, accepting the call toward becoming more and more like Him.

How may we do this? Might we consider denying the flesh and striving for the unity of the Faith, consider loving (showing agape love) toward that brother that we love to fight so much?

Listen to the sound of the coming storm:

Continuing (in context): 53 "Father will be divided against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law."

54 Then He also said to the multitudes, "Whenever you see a cloud rising out of the west, immediately you say, 'A shower is coming'; and so it is. 55 "And when [you see] the south wind blow, you say, 'There will be hot weather'; and there is.

56 "Hypocrites! You can discern the face of the sky and of the earth, but how [is it] you do not discern this time?

57 "Yes, and why, even of yourselves, do you not judge what is right? 58 "When you go with your adversary to the magistrate, make every effort along the way to settle with him, lest he drag you to the judge, the judge deliver you to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59 "I tell you, you shall not depart from there till you have paid the very last mite."

Take note what was said "to the multitudes". Jesus knows his audience. His word has gone out. It will accomplish the purpose that God has determined. Where will we find ourselves upon His return? Shall he say to each member here, "Welcome thou good and faithful servant?" Does this depend on what we are doing at the time? Is that why we are told to "Watch and take heed?"

And what about the command to not forsake the joining even as we see the end coming?

Okay, I hope I've said enough for others to catch the drift. I think becoming advocates of peace and that being firmly fixed and settled on the love (the agape) that we are commanded to have, one for another, is like his NAME, like running into a mighty TOWER, designed for our protection.

~Sparrow

 

[Brother Mike]

Re: Fire and Disputes amongst The Brethren

Act_15:39 And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus;

Last we ever heard of Barnabas. Is there a message in that?

Mike.

 

[JLB]

Re: Fire and Disputes amongst The Brethren

Here are some examples of disputes from the scriptures amongst brethren.


11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? Galatians 2:11-14


Paul noted that Hypocrisy had spread to Barnabas.

Hypocrisy, like false doctrine can spread to others in the body of Christ and affect them as well.

Paul said it this way -

15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity." 2 Timothy 2:15-19

James uses the same phrase for love, which says Love covers a multitude of sins in the next verse -

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19

It is clearly and biblically an act of love to show people the truth from God's word, and to keep them from wandering.


James clearly says here that a brother, who wanders from the Truth, can become known as a sinner.


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

Re: Fire and Disputes amongst The Brethren

It is clearly and biblically an act of love to show people the truth from God's word, and to keep them from wandering.


James clearly says here that a brother, who wanders from the Truth, can become known as a sinner.

And that is the Heart of the matter. Every Post I make is an attempt to get a person to see what they are actually believing, because they don't see it. They are not comparing other scriptures, and they are just as their right here posting opinions despite what 10 other scriptures say.

Turn around and look at this will you? Is my message, what are you thinking, what are you looking at and Did God say something different somewhere else. I head for the poster directly to get them to see and at least think. If I back them in a corner that no matter what they answer it will look Wrong then they must be wrong because the Word is Truth and I can't ever prove God wrong.

What level do we want? A forum full of opinions? Is that the goal?

The thing is if I personally did not receive correction then I have no place to talk. However I just admitted to Deborah that I was wrong about something she pointed out in a way that I did not look at. Deborah proved me wrong, and that is not an amazing feat.

Yes, indeed we are told to study to shew ourselves approved. But to whom are we to present ourselves for approval? To each others? Do we wield the Sword of Truth, formed of and completed by the Logos of God for unholy purpose, flesh against flesh? May it be far from us. Here, let me fetch the quote and let us examine who approves and the purpose of our study.

Who is the one that approves? We are here with each other posting belief's and scriptures.

To ignore one scripture over another is where your going to draw the line with me. If a poster presents their arguments in a reasonable way, then I may not agree but I can at least see that they took the time to study to show themselves approved.

It's Like Truth Over Tradition. he looks at the Word in a very natural way. Is Isa 14 or Eze 28 about Satan? I believe so, but I never smashed his argument here because I see exactly what He is seeing. Same with that Soul Sleep thread, I had taken a few scriptures where his point was very valid though I did not agree. He studied!!!! He examined. Nothing else to do there, it's good enough for me because he Values the Word of God.

Even JLB and I. Back and forth over 1 scripture. Been over it and over it and over it.

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
(1Co 15:20-23)

I read it like this............... Jesus the first fruit of them that died. Then those IN Christ every man will follow in this order. Christ first fruits then those that are his at his coming.

So IN the Lord Jesus First fruits or His anointed Church first then those saved though tribulation.

JLB reads it like this...........

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order:

Paul no longer talking about those IN Christ but giving the Order of the resurrection.

Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
(1Co 15:20-23)

Jesus Christ is the first then we follow after Jesus.

I don't see where JLB has not studied I just don't read this like He does.

So there is no fault found, He just does not look at it like I do, because if I am right then there is a pre-Trib Rapture. If JLB is right then there is a Post-Trib Rapture based on how you read this.

That is what I look for. Did someone value God's word enough to at least consider the other scripture given?

Mike.

 

[reba]

Re: Fire and Disputes amongst The Brethren

The ToS of this site is not outside the Word of God. When members sign up they agree to abide by the ToS. Christian members should abide by their agreements. The mods here prayerfully moderate as an act of love.

 

[Brother Mike]

Re: Fire and Disputes amongst The Brethren

The ToS of this site is not outside the Word of God. When members sign up they agree to abide by the ToS. Christian members should abide by their agreements. The mods here prayerfully moderate as an act of love.

OK, I did not see that before. My fault.

We consider Paul's writings to be part of the inspired Word of God. This is a Christian forum and any posting(s) that is intended to purposely distort Paul's writings will not be tolerated.

I posted scriptures Paul did not write, or just Paul considered Part of scripture?

And we have Myth busted those that contradict Paul. Should get a good job done there I think, not edited out.

In America and Russia we have Freedom of Speech. Just in America though your free after the speech. (Yakov)

Mike.

 

[farouk]

Re: Fire and Disputes amongst The Brethren

The Luke 12 passage also seems to have as its background the fact that many readers were Jewish, some of whom would follow the Lord Jesus and some of whom would not.

Often when the New Testament speaks of 'brethren', its about those who are brothers and sisters in Christ. Other times some family relations can refer to Jews.

Blessings.

 

[reba]

Opened for discussion


Working to keep the guidelines of the FOS forum as they were meant to be . Staff has decided to move a portion of the thread here. We hope our efforts to allow as much discussion as possible are appreciated and respected.

 

[Sparkey]

Guys, you'll need to pardon me (maybe) with the understanding that I get a little stirred up with I read what the Holy Spirit has said through our brother Ezekiel.

Eze 24:14; 33:20

What I hear is:

Ezekiel 24
Ezekiel 33

What I also hear is that some have said that the "Ways of the Lord are not equal."
Can't help but wonder about this one. Those who long to be more and more like Christ are told to not judge by our eye and not by our ear. (see Isa 11:3, John 7:24, Eze 45:8, Micah 4:3, Proverbs 2:5,9, Job 12:11; 34:3, Philippians 1:9,10, Heb 5:14)

 

[Sparkey]

Sometimes I just can't resist :

Much talk becomes tiresome to listen to.

Link to last point

LOL - to get the "flavor" of what I tried to day, click above link, read rapidly and scroll down. :chokedup

One of my favorite selected parts seen below:

Kohelet 1:8 (OJB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 All things are wearisome; no ish can express it; the ayin is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ozen full with hearing.

Here is the footnote to the page:

21st Century King James Version (KJ21) Copyright © 1994 by Deuel Enterprises, Inc.; American Standard Version (ASV) Copyright © 1901 by Public Domain; Amplified Bible (AMP) Copyright © 1954, 1958, 1962, 1964, 1965, 1987 by The Lockman Foundation; Common English Bible (CEB) Copyright © 2011 by Common English Bible; Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) Copyright © 1998 by David H. Stern. All rights reserved. ; Contemporary English Version (CEV) Copyright © 1995 by American Bible Society; Darby Translation (DARBY) by Public Domain; Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA) by Public Domain; Easy-to-Read Version (ERV) Copyright © 2006 by World Bible Translation Center; English Standard Version (ESV) The Holy Bible, English Standard Version Copyright © 2001 by Crossway Bibles, a division of Good News Publishers.; English Standard Version Anglicised (ESVUK) The Holy Bible, English Standard Version Copyright © 2001 by Crossway Bibles, a division of Good News Publishers.; Expanded Bible (EXB) The Expanded Bible, Copyright © 2011 Thomas Nelson Inc. All rights reserved. ; 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV) Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition. Published by Tolle Lege Press. All rights reserved. No part of this publication may be reproduced or transmitted in any form or by any means, electronic or mechanical, without written permission from the publisher, except in the case of brief quotations in articles, reviews, and broadcasts. ; GOD’S WORD Translation (GW) Copyright © 1995 by God's Word to the Nations. Used by permission of Baker Publishing Group; Good News Translation (GNT) Copyright © 1992 by American Bible Society; Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB) Copyright © 1999, 2000, 2002, 2003, 2009 by Holman Bible Publishers, Nashville Tennessee. All rights reserved.; Jubilee Bible 2000 (JUB) 2000, 2001, 2010 by LIFE SENTENCE Publishing; King James Version (KJV) by Public Domain; Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV) KJV reproduced by permission of Cambridge University Press, the Crown’s patentee in the UK.; Lexham English Bible (LEB) 2012 by Logos Bible Software. 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Used by permission of Tyndale House Publishers Inc., Carol Stream, Illinois 60188. All rights reserved.; New Revised Standard Version (NRSV) New Revised Standard Version Bible, copyright © 1989 the Division of Christian Education of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the United States of America. Used by permission. All rights reserved.; New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised (NRSVA) New Revised Standard Version Bible: Anglicised Edition, copyright © 1989, 1995 the Division of Christian Education of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the United States of America. Used by permission. All rights reserved.; New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition (NRSVACE) New Revised Standard Version Bible: Anglicised Catholic Edition, copyright © 1989, 1993, 1995 the Division of Christian Education of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the United States of America. Used by permission. All rights reserved.; New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE) New Revised Standard Version Bible: Catholic Edition, copyright © 1989, 1993 the Division of Christian Education of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the United States of America. Used by permission. All rights reserved.; Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB) Copyright © 2002, 2003, 2008, 2010, 2011 by Artists for Israel International; Revised Standard Version (RSV) Revised Standard Version of the Bible, copyright © 1946, 1952, and 1971 the Division of Christian Education of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the United States of America. Used by permission. All rights reserved.; Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE) The Revised Standard Version of the Bible: Catholic Edition, copyright © 1965, 1966 the Division of Christian Education of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the United States of America. Used by permission. All rights reserved.; The Voice (VOICE) The Voice Bible Copyright © 2012 Thomas Nelson, Inc. The Voice™ translation © 2012 Ecclesia Bible Society All rights reserved. ; World English Bible (WEB) by Public Domain. The name "World English Bible" is trademarked.; Wycliffe Bible (WYC) 2001 by Terence P. Noble; Young's Literal Translation (YLT) by Public Domain

:toofunny

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Re: Fire and Disputes amongst The Brethren

I don't see where JLB has not studied I just don't read this like He does.

So there is no fault found, He just does not look at it like I do, because if I am right then there is a pre-Trib Rapture. If JLB is right then there is a Post-Trib Rapture based on how you read this.

That is what I look for. Did someone value God's word enough to at least consider the other scripture given?

Mike.

Good example of what Jesus meant when he said, "And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven." (Matthew 12:31 NIV)

Some things really don't matter, even though a person may be sinning in what he believes about that 'some thing' (see 1 Corinthians 15:34 NIV). That sin can, and will, be forgiven. Let's remember this when we're debating doctrine.

 

[Brother Mike]

Re: Fire and Disputes amongst The Brethren

Good example of what Jesus meant when he said, "And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven." (Matthew 12:31 NIV)

Some things really don't matter, even though a person may be sinning in what he believes about that 'some thing' (see 1 Corinthians 15:34 NIV). That sin can, and will, be forgiven. Let's remember this when we're debating doctrine.

I think this is a good example of what I look for. Your case is that someone that rejects the Lord Jesus despite the Spirit of Grace and just refuses after given a change to hear time and time again has rejected the renewing process of the Holy Spirit.

I see that as a big problem for someone and dying in that condition of rejecting the Holy Spirit who reproves the World of sin, rejecting that pull toward the Lord Jesus ends in bad results of dying and not knowing the Lord.

But as I said, I see the point, your connecting scriptures to that understanding make sense. So I don't see a disregard for the Word because you provided those connecting scriptures. I don't see a disregard for the Word in your other post. I see lots of spiritual understanding in your post so I am not the corrector nor do I know everything.

What I said is that Jesus statement about that sin, I think carries more to it than not making Jesus Lord. We still have to tie in Heb 6, 10 and John said there was a sin unto death, warning to stay away from idols.

That is all I am saying, take a look.

The only time someone gets my attention is this blatant disregard for scriptures. Making stuff up that is not in scripture and trying to make everything spiritual or some parable if they don't want to believe something even though it does not line up with what is just spiritual or a parable.

Blessing.

Mike.

 

[Sparkey]

Re: Fire and Disputes amongst The Brethren

Yes, indeed we are told to study to shew ourselves approved. But to whom are we to present ourselves for approval? To each others? Do we wield the Sword of Truth, formed of and completed by the Logos of God for unholy purpose, flesh against flesh? May it be far from us. Here, let me fetch the quote and let us examine who approves and the purpose of our study.

Who is the one that approves? We are here with each other posting belief's and scriptures.

To ignore one scripture over another is where your going to draw the line with me. If a poster presents their arguments in a reasonable way, then I may not agree but I can at least see that they took the time to study to show themselves approved.That is what I look for. Did someone value God's word enough to at least consider the other scripture given?

Mike.

[bolded emphasis mine: Sparrow]

Brother Mike, much has been said. Some of that is about others and frankly I can not answer for them. But as for me? I notice that you have repeated my question as if you are asking it to me. Why do this when there is the more sure word of Prophecy available to one and all?? Let's look and find out, but before we do, let's also bind ourselves to the answer that is directly given in the Word of God. Shall we? Before we go there, let's state here in agreement as touching that the Word of God is greater than Sparrow's or Brother Mike's opinion, no matter the color of our name here on the forum, all right?

Knowing you, and taking in the context of all your posts here on CF.net, I have no doubt of your agreement and will presume your answer is a whole-hearted "amen" to this as I proceed. Fact is, I can even imagine that, put that way, you would have a leg to stand on, should you choose to argue. Here then is the Scripture quoted. It answer the question that I have asked, the same question that you have echoed back. Unto whom are we to show ourselves approved? Simple enough.

Fetching the full quote, be right back... one second... processing:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Timothy+2:15&version=KJV

The "Study to show yourself approved... Scripture according to the Word of GOD. (don't take it from me) KJV is okay, I hope?


Is it too much to ask that we know for whom we study in order to submit ourselves there and to show ourselves approved? Again, is this study motivated by one-up-man's-ship or is it of workmen, understanding that if our work is to stand, it must not be wood, hay, nor stubble.

Such things shall burn. Hence my OP and the question of FIRE! Our God is a purifying fire, we shall not be harmed, but our works? If they are not firmly based on the unshakable truth, if we have been diverted in our motivations so that we begin studying to show ourselves for one another's approval? What then?

God knows. There is a storm coming. All that can be shaken shall be shaken. What is left? What happens when the roofs that we've slapped together go up on flame like a San Bernardino housing project?

Alas and alack, let us not become a proverb. Instead let us keep centered on the only one who may approve, the author and the finisher of our Trust for he alone is faithful. Please take the moment or two needed to ponder Psalm 133 (it's only 3 lines) before answer or reply designed to gainsay or resist is made.

 

[Brother Mike]

Re: Fire and Disputes amongst The Brethren

Is it too much to ask that we know for whom we study in order to submit ourselves there and to show ourselves approved? Again, is this study motivated by one-up-man's-ship or is it of workmen, understanding that if our work is to stand, it must not be wood, hay, nor stubble.

Ah, I am aware on who's approval we need. It's not Mike of course.

[edited by Staff]

So it's the heart I examine, and the level of revelation.

Mike.

 

[Sinthesis]

I'm pretty sure that anyone who believes that none of their work as Christians won't be lost in the fire of judgement is deceiving themselves. If we can see in other Christians that not everything built in the name of Christ is worthy of His name, then surely we are not to be so haughty as to think our own constructs are perfect.

 

[Sparkey]

Sin, thank you for that. What troubles me is the sure knowledge that judgment comes first to the house of God.

Those who look out and see the storm coming? They know the weather from what they observe in nature? Those of us who are studied in the word, who have sought God for understanding about the seasons and the times? We need to know that our time is coming, there is a time when gathering will happen, when we too shall be winnowed, shall be tossed up into the air and during that process sifted. Peter, that man of God, spoke about strange fiery trials. Did he tell us to think them strange? No. Quite the contrary. What is it that is burning? It is the middling.

That's a very specific term, used in sorting wheat, sorting the grain kernels (heavier and fall closer) from the chaff (lighter and carried further by the wind). You've heard the term before.

Question: "So, how are you doing?"

Response: "I'm doing fair to middling, thank you."

Jesus spoke to Peter saying, "Satan desires to sift you like wheat." Imagine that process if you will. Consider what the accuser of the brethren wanted to do with Peter, who was seen to deny thrice, not once, not twice but thrice."

Judgment of God? That's scarey stuff. Stuff that happens to evil-doers, right? No only them for He is JUST and none will say to the contrary. We are to told to be still and to continue to remain in Him even as we are sanctified, set apart for His use, for His purpose. That sanctification process begins as we, in our hearts covenanted with God, for He has rightly said:

... not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 33"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34"They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."…

~Jeremiah 31

He is the one who speaks to let us know through the words of his only begotten son, that the heart that is contrite? He will in no wise turn away. That is the message delivered to the men of God who cooperated with His Spirit even as they wondered what it was that the Spirit Holy was doing in their lives and it was shown to them that this that they wondered about was being done, not as much for them as it was done for us who would come later. Those who are called blessed, while Jesus spoke to Thomas, about those who seeing not, yet believed and trusted.

This is the message that causes us to remain, to seek after life for here are the very words of life. What else may we do but remain still and know, even as our hearts are shown and revealed, that He alone is worthy and He alone is able. We are to judge ourselves but even in that we are given careful instruction by the Master of Fishermen who cares for His NET.

WE are parts of that net, and He is the master fisherman who has planned for what we see today, spread out before men, from our hearts, to be examined, to become living epistles known and read of all. We are told to remain still for but a moment because He does not want us, the thread components of that net, used by the Master of all, as we are made to be fishers of me, to become entangled. It is His hand that reaches into our hearts and lifts out that bit of flotsum and that other bit of jetsum, knowing that the Master of all Heaven and All Earth cares for is from the very large to the very small. His care for each of us, causes us to seek to obtain and remain in submission to the touch of Him who has proclaimed the end from the beginning.