Perfect Tense for "saved" proves eternal security

Jethro Bodine said:

This is nonsense.
You're evading the condition for presently being saved.

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received (factual, in the past), in which also you stand (up to the present), 2by which also you are (presently in real time) saved, if you (presently in real time) hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB verb tenses in parenthesis mine)

You haven't explained what the 'if' means in the sentence. It's a condition. But I knew you'd make it so that even if you don't satisfy the 'if' you'd still be saved.

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I believe the evader is yourself. Paul said this: "you are saved...unless you believed without reason".

Once again, to be saved presently means to possess the word.

Greek lexicons show that "hold fast" is one word in the Greek, meaning 'possess'. Not, "keep a tight grip on something'.

And "in vain" means "without reason".

FreeGrace said:

The question is irrelevant to the verse.

1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain."

One is saved UNLESS ONE BELIEVES IN VAIN (WITHOUT REASON).

I've already explained the Greek word translated "hold fast".

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Jethro Bodine also.

Let's assume that FreeGrace is right. Those who believed in vain were never saved and are not saved.
OK.

But what about that little word IF that I see up above??

2 By which also you are saved IF you hold fast the word which I preached to you.

IF you hold fast (whatever you want that to mean) you are saved.
IF YOU DO NOT hold fast you are not saved at the point that you are no longer holding fast.

While we're at it with the Greek which is so loved by us that you'd think the knowledge of Greek is going to get us to heaven instead of our knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ, how about FreeGrace explaining what

FALLING AWAY means.

Does that also mean something different from "falling away" ??

Wondering

FreeGrace said:

I believe the evader is yourself. Paul said this: "you are saved...unless you believed without reason".

Once again, to be saved presently means to possess the word.

Greek lexicons show that "hold fast" is one word in the Greek, meaning 'possess'. Not, "keep a tight grip on something'.

And "in vain" means "without reason".

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POSSESS
KEEP A TIGHT GRIP

What's the difference?

Webster's Dictionary:

1. Possess(verb)
   
   to occupy in person; to hold or actually have in one's own keeping; to have and to hold
   
   
2. Possess(verb)
   
   to have the legal title to; to have a just right to; to be master of; to own; to have; as, to possess property, an estate, a book
   
   
3. Possess(verb)
   
   to obtain occupation or possession of; to accomplish; to gain; to seize
   
   
4. Possess(verb)
   
   to enter into and influence; to control the will of; to fill; to affect; -- said especially of evil spirits, passions, etc
   
   
5. Possess(verb)
   
   to put in possession; to make the owner or holder of property, power, knowledge, etc.; to acquaint; to inform; -- followed by of or with before the thing possessed, and now commonly used reflexively
   

If I possess something, I must surely be holding on to it.
If I possess my house, am I giving it away or holding on to it?

Do you suppose Jesus knew we'd have to know Greek to get to be a part of God's Kingdom?
NO.
What we need to know is Mathew 5, basically; in whatever language you wish to read it.

Wondering

FreeGrace said:

The point is that being saved in the past in the perfect tense means still being saved now.

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That would be going beyond what is written. I don't do that. I would recommend that you not either. You are pulling out something that this scripture doesn't say.

The context is as I have said...the exact same as John 1:12

the meaning of 'in vain' according to Strong's
μάτην
matēn
mat'-ane
Accusative case of a derivative of the base of G3145 (through the idea of tentative manipulation, that is, unsuccessful search, or else of punishment); folly, that is, (adverbially) to no purpose: - in vain

to hold fast - don't let go

You have to continue in your belief (don't let go) or your believing (that which you believed at first) was for naught. ie.in vain.

MarkT said:

You have to continue in your belief (don't let go) or your believing (that which you believed at first) was for naught. ie.in vain.

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If your belief at first was that Christ was not raised (as Paul says some did) you have to continue in what you believed???

Mind numbling simple what "believed in vain" means.

chessman said:

If your belief at first was that Christ was not raised (as Paul says some did) you have to continue in what you believed???

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No. Paul said some didn't believe in a resurrection of the dead. So the question is, what did they believe if they didn't believe in a resurrection from the dead. Did they believe in vain? Paul argued, if the dead are not raised then, Christ has not been raised, and if Christ has not been raised, then your faith is in vain. ie. for naught. 1 Cor. 15:12-19 The takeaway from 1 Cor. 15:1-2 is you have to continue in what you received (Christ was raised from the dead) and stand fast. Paul says re. the gospel he preached 'by which you are saved, if you hold it fast (don't let go). The corollary is, if you let it go, you have believed in vain.

FreeGrace said:

OK, let's consider this. Completed action is the action of being saved by God. And that being saved by God has CONTINUING RESULTS. And please note that there were no conditions or contingencies added to the statement.

iow, once saved, one continues to be saved. That is the meaning of the perfect tense. No conditions, no contingencies.

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You're adding 'nothing can stop the completed and continuing results' to the definition of the Perfect tense. No honest person would do that. But surely, if the Perfect Tense means that you'll be able to copy and paste a reputable Greek study that says that.

FreeGrace said:

If this is a reference to Dr David Jeremiah, I have no doubt that he believes in eternal security.

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I don't even have to look it up to know Dr. Jeremiah is NOT hyper-grace OSAS.

Pegasus said:

We are in violent agreement we MUST hold fast to the word of the gospel. If one does not, I believe they may be falling in the apostasy 'category' of 1 John 2 and Hebrews 6.

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Good, you see the condition for salvation in 1 Corinthians 15:1-2, too. But you probably understand it according to traditional OSAS (the true believer never stops believing). But hyper-grace completely denies that condition and says the believer can stop holding fast the word they received, and in which they once stood, and by which they were saved by and they are still saved and have eternal life. Did you know that's what hyper-grace believes?

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

FreeGrace said:

Your preference for "in vain" seems to be an attempt to shift the argument. To "believe without reason" is to believe anything other than the gospel, which is not saving faith.

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"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

Even gr8grace3 will tell you that the salvation of the Corinthians is not in question here. The Greek grammar is being emphatic about their salvation. They are saved. I'm guessing you did not know this. The "unless you believed in vain" is in regard to whether Christ rose from the dead or not (1 Corinthians 15:14,17 NASB). That's what would make their salvic believing (which the text says they surely did) useless.

FreeGrace said:

I believe the evader is yourself. Paul said this: "you are saved...unless you believed without reason".

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No, I have eyes that can see the plain words that say, "you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you". But which he says is useless believing if Christ has not risen from the dead (vs.14,17), not useless if they didn't 'really' believe the gospel.

Where you put the '...' in your quote above, that is the part you are evading. The 'if' you left out is a condition for being (presently) saved, which is you have to be (presently) holding fast the word. John says the same thing here:

"If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)
"12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:12 NASB)

MarkT said:

No. Paul said some didn't believe in a resurrection of the dead. So the question is, what did they believe if they didn't believe in a resurrection from the dead. Did they believe in vain? Paul argued, if the dead are not raised then, Christ has not been raised, and if Christ has not been raised, then your faith is in vain. ie. for naught. 1 Cor. 15:12-19 The takeaway from 1 Cor. 15:1-2 is you have to continue in what you received (Christ was raised from the dead) and stand fast. Paul says re. the gospel he preached 'by which you are saved, if you hold it fast (don't let go). The corollary is, if you let it go, you have believed in vain.

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Yes. Paul said some didn't believe in a resurrection of the dead. So the question is, what did they believe if they didn't believe in a resurrection from the dead. And the answer is something other than the Gospel that saves.

Did they believe in vain? Yep, that's what Paul said.
Paul argued, if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised, and if Christ has not been raised, then your faith is in vain. ie. for naught. Yep. 1 Cor. 15:12-19 and from 1 Cor. 15:1-2.

The idea that you have to not "let go" of salvation in order to receive salvation is inserted into the Text.

MarkT said:

The corollary is, if you let it go, you have believed in vain.

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I prefer to read what Paul actually said rather than assume corollaries.

If Paul would have meant you have to maintain your own salvation rather than receive it, he could have said so. He didn't say so in verses 1-2. He said you are saved unless you believed in vain (believed in a non-reserrected Jesus). Plain as day.

I stand firm in my salvation because I did believe in a risen Christ, not because I believe in me "not letting go".

Jethro Bodine said:

I have eyes that can see the plain words that say, "you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you".

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Bingo. When in fact what Paul really said was: "Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain."

And yes, Paul's conditions for standing upright and firm include their past non-vain belief and/also their "holding fast" the risen Word.

Your eyes see only partially, "pretending" the rest of Paul's conditions aren't even there.

Jethro Bodine said:

Good, you see the condition for salvation in 1 Corinthians 15:1-2, too. But you probably understand it according to traditional OSAS (the true believer never stops believing). But hyper-grace completely denies that condition and says the believer can stop holding fast the word they received, and in which they once stood, and by which they were saved by and they are still saved and have eternal life. Did you know that's what hyper-grace believes?

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

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Truly never delved into hyper Grace. I've heard of hyper Calvinism. Charles H Spurgeon used to debate the hyper Calvanists.

What I believe we truly are faced with is a Biblical paradox. Spurgeon spoke about this as well:

http://www.epm.org/resources/2010/Mar/22/spurgeons-theology-embracing-biblical-paradox/

The above was an eye opener.

chessman said:

Yes. Paul said some didn't believe in a resurrection of the dead. So the question is, what did they believe if they didn't believe in a resurrection from the dead. And the answer is something other than the Gospel that saves.

Did they believe in vain? Yep, that's what Paul said.
Paul argued, if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised, and if Christ has not been raised, then your faith is in vain. ie. for naught. Yep. 1 Cor. 15:12-19 and from 1 Cor. 15:1-2.

The idea that you have to not "let go" of salvation in order to receive salvation is inserted into the Text.


I prefer to read what Paul actually said rather than assume corollaries.

If Paul would have meant you have to maintain your own salvation rather than receive it, he could have said so. He didn't say so in verses 1-2. He said you are saved unless you believed in vain (believed in a non-reserrected Jesus). Plain as day.

I stand firm in my salvation because I did believe in a risen Christ, not because I believe in me "not letting go".

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I wouldn't say 'not let go of salvation'. I would say 'not fall into unbelief.' To hold something fast is to strongly believe it; I mean the gospel. If you don't hold it fast ie. fall into unbelief, then you believed in vain or for nothing. I wouldn't say they believed in vain because Paul had to correct them. They needed correction. It's not to say they didn't believe. Indeed he calls them 'my beloved brethren in vs. 58 1 Cor. 15.

chessman said:

Bingo. When in fact what Paul really said was: "Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain."

And yes, Paul's conditions for standing upright and firm include their past non-vain belief and/also their "holding fast" the risen Word.

Your eyes see only partially, "pretending" the rest of Paul's conditions aren't even there.

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Your argument is pointless because you're addressing something that's not even in contention. Of course being saved means standing firm in the gospel. To believe the gospel is to stand firm in the gospel and be saved by that gospel.

Hyper-grace says you are still saved even if you don't stand firm in the word by not continuing to believe it. But Paul is clearly saying in 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB that the condition for being (presently) saved is (presently) holding fast the word, as opposed to having rejected that word you heard and were saved by. John says the same thing in 1 John 2:24 NASB/ 1 John 5:12 NASB. You have to retain the word you were saved by and which you have been standing firm in, in order to retain salvation.

Jethro Bodine said:

Your argument is pointless

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I'm quite sure Paul also included "unless you believed in vain" for a very pointed reason. It's most certainly NOT pointless to Paul's logic or to me. Proper exegesis of His sentence simply cannot "pretend" it's not there or "pretend" it means something other than what it clearly does mean (there were some there that had not believed). I couldn't figure out why you cannot see his clear logic before as you claimed to understand and have used logical IF, THEN. ELSE statements in computer code. Now, I know why. Your eyes simply can't see it.

Some people believe the Gospel that saves them but will not stand firm and testify that it is He (Himself, Jesus Christ) who actually restores, confirms, strengths, AND establishs believers. They like taking credit for these things themselves.


What is the true Grace of God? Umm, it is that the God of all grace will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you.

wondering said:

Jethro Bodine also.

Let's assume that FreeGrace is right. Those who believed in vain were never saved and are not saved.
OK.

But what about that little word IF that I see up above??

2 By which also you are saved IF you hold fast the word which I preached to you.

IF you hold fast (whatever you want that to mean) you are saved.
IF YOU DO NOT hold fast you are not saved at the point that you are no longer holding fast.

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So, let's discuss what it means, which I've done for JB many times already.

The Greek word means "to possess". Now, what do we possess WHEN we believe in Christ? We possess eternal life.

Therefore, the phrase "By which also you are saved IF you hold fast the word which I preached to you." means this:
by which also you are saved if you possess the word (gospel, by which we possess eternal life) which I preached to you.

JB has not provided any explanation of what he thinks "hold fast" means. But his posts insinuate that it means something akin to keeping a tight grip.

While we're at it with the Greek which is so loved by us that you'd think the knowledge of Greek is going to get us to heaven instead of our knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ, how about FreeGrace explaining what

FALLING AWAY means.

Does that also mean something different from "falling away" ??

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I don't think capitalizing vs small case makes any difference at all.

I could only find one verse translated "falling away", occurring in 2 Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; KJV

The Greek word is apostasia, and means "forsake".

In the NIV, I found a number of verses with "fall away".

Luke 8:13 Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

The Greek word is aphistantai and means "to remove, instigate to revolt, to desist, desert".

Heb 6:6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

The Greek word is parapesontas, and means "to fall aside, to apostatize".

Here are the other verses that contain the phrase "fall away":
Matt 11:6, 26:31,33, Mark 4:7, 14:27,29, Luke 7:23, Acts 27:32.

The issue for this phrase is to determine what is being fallen away from. JB and others claim it means to lose salvation, yet none of the verses either say that, or even suggest that.

For example, in Luke 8:13 it is clear what Jesus meant by "fall away". It is in reference to "believing for a while". iow, the second soil fell away from their faith, or from believing.

One must assume it includes falling from salvation.