Perfect Tense for "saved" proves eternal security

[FreeGrace]

POSSESS
KEEP A TIGHT GRIP

What's the difference?

A huge difference. To "keep a tight grip" clearly suggests you are actively involved in possession. Whereas, "possess" simply indicates ownership. Being given a gift does not involve active participation, yet ownership results.

Webster's Dictionary:

1. Possess(verb)
   to occupy in person; to hold or actually have in one's own keeping; to have and to hold
   
2. Possess(verb)
   to have the legal title to; to have a just right to; to be master of; to own; to have; as, to possess property, an estate, a book
   
3. Possess(verb)
   to obtain occupation or possession of; to accomplish; to gain; to seize
   
4. Possess(verb)
   to enter into and influence; to control the will of; to fill; to affect; -- said especially of evil spirits, passions, etc
   
5. Possess(verb)
   to put in possession; to make the owner or holder of property, power, knowledge, etc.; to acquaint; to inform; -- followed by of or with before the thing possessed, and now commonly used reflexively

If I possess something, I must surely be holding on to it.

Not necessarily actively. Possession can easily be passive. JB and others think salvation is something that they are actively involved in possessing. The Bible uses the passive voice when speaking about salvation. That proves that we are NOT actively involved in obtaining salvation or eternal life.

If I possess my house, am I giving it away or holding on to it?

Well, you can't do both at the same time.

But, seriously, "if you possess your house", you simply own it. You may give it away or keep it.

But, to your question, do you literally have a tight grip on the house? Can you actually get your arms around the house in order to actually "hold on to it"? Of course not.

There is a big difference between passive and active possession. If I take your car (or house) key and hold on to it tightly in my hand, I can say that I POSSESS your key. However, the OWNERSHIP of that key is still yours and all I've done is steal it from you.

See the difference?

Do you suppose Jesus knew we'd have to know Greek to get to be a part of God's Kingdom?
NO.

What language did Jesus speak? And what language did the authors of God's Word use to communicate God's Word?

Let's not split hairs. Since we have many translations and lexicons and Greek grammar texts, we have no excuse NOT to understand what the original language of God's Word means.

What we need to know is Mathew 5, basically; in whatever language you wish to read it.
Wondering

I'm sure you're aware that there are translations that are not faithful to the original manuscripts.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"The point is that being saved in the past in the perfect tense means still being saved now."

That would be going beyond what is written. I don't do that. I would recommend that you not either. You are pulling out something that this scripture doesn't say.

Please show how my statement above "goes beyond" what was written. I have presented the meaning of the perfect tense, and my statement is what the perfect tense communicates.

 

[FreeGrace]

the meaning of 'in vain' according to Strong's
μάτην
matēn
mat'-ane
Accusative case of a derivative of the base of G3145 (through the idea of tentative manipulation, that is, unsuccessful search, or else of punishment); folly, that is, (adverbially) to no purpose: - in vain

This is from one of my lexicons for the word in 1 Cor 15:2:
NT:1500
eike (i-kay'); probably from NT:1502 (through the idea of failure); idly, i.e. without reason (or effect):
KJV - without a cause, (in) vain (-ly).
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

The phrase "to no purpose" means the same thing as "without reason".

 

[Jethro Bodine]

couldn't figure out why you cannot see his clear logic before as you claimed to understand and have used logical IF, THEN. ELSE statements in computer code. Now, I know why. Your eyes simply can't see it.

Paul himself tells us what "unless you believed in vain" means. :

"11Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.12Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied." (1 Corinthians 15:11-18 NASB bold and underline mine, italics in original)

As anybody can see for themselves "unless you believed in vain" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB) means their believing is worthless if the gospel they heard, and received, and are standing on is wrong and Christ really didn't rise from the dead. There's nothing there about 'not really' believing the gospel when they first heard it making the faith of the Corinthians vain. In fact, Paul plainly says they DID believe what he originally preached to them (vs.11)!

And, as I've been saying all along, even if "unless you believed in vain" (vs.2) means 'unless you guys didn't really believe the gospel and were never really save to begin with' that does not nullify the condition for salvation for those who really did believe the gospel:

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain (you didn't really believe to begin with)." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB bold, underline, and parenthesis mine)

The 'if' signifies the condition for being presently saved. That condition being that you are presently holding fast the word, not rejecting it. But hyper-grace just skips right over the 'if' in Paul's statement and says you don't have to be presently holding fast the word that you heard, and received, and which you stood in, and were saved by to be saved right now. That doctrine completely nullifies the plain words of the passage.

 

[FreeGrace]

You're adding 'nothing can stop the completed and continuing results' to the definition of the Perfect tense.

I'm explaining that from the past completed action of believing, one is still currently saved. My point, which is continually being ignores, is that the verse give NO conditions for being "still currently saved", or contingencies, which are rife in your position.

No honest person would do that.

And no honest person continues to ignore points that they can't answer or don't want to address.

But surely, if the Perfect Tense means that you'll be able to copy and paste a reputable Greek study that says that.

It's clear enough to understand all by itself.

But I did notice the big hole of escape by noting a "reputable Greek study". I suspect that no matter how many Greek studies I may find, will be met with "but that's not a reputable one".

The point of the perfect tense is that from a completed action of believing in the past, one continues to be saved in the present.

iow, there are no conditions that may alter the on-going results of the past action of believing.

That's the achilles heel of your position, with the claims of how one can lose the state of being saved. The perfect tense doesn't allow that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Some people believe the Gospel that saves them but will not stand firm and testify that it is He (Himself, Jesus Christ) who actually restores, confirms, strengths, AND establishs believers. They like taking credit for these things themselves.

1 Peter 5:10-12 (LEB) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered for a short time, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you. To him be the power forever and ever. Amen. Through Silvanus, the faithful brother as I consider him, I have written to you briefly to encourage you and to attest that this is the true grace of God. Stand firm in it.
What is the true Grace of God? Umm, it is that the God of all grace will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you.

That sounds like a marvelous gospel! What do I have to do to get this grace? Nothing? Of course not. It is incumbent on the person to believe. God doesn't do our believing for us. WE have to do that. He will encourage our faith, but WE are the one's who have to believe in order to receive God's grace.

Believing is not a work of the law that somehow it can be argued that we're trying to earn our own salvation by doing the believing that is required to gain God's grace. But you can certainly set me straight on that and post chapter and verse that explains that even believing if you do that to be justified is the damnable works gospel.

 

[JLB]

So what? Jesus Himself used the present tense in Luke 8:13 then added "for a while", thus proving that the present tense doesn't mean continuously until the end of one's life. Obviously.

The issue of this thread is the perfect tense of "having been SAVED". Not "having believed". The RESULT of believing is being SAVED. That's what is continuing.

Makes no sense, plus there is no scripture.

Man's commentary.


Here is what Jesus Christ taught us.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


Do you believe, those who believed for a while, then fell away, represent those who are saved?




JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I don't even have to look it up to know Dr. Jeremiah is NOT hyper-grace OSAS.

Please provide a source (website, book, etc) that shows that he isn't OSAS. I've heard him on TV and read some of his books. So I don't believe your claim. Provide evidence.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It's clear enough to understand all by itself.

In other words, you're saying there is no official published definition of the Perfect Tense that says it means the continuing completed results will never, and can never, cease. I think it completely unreasonable to teach people the Perfect Tense means 'never ending completed results' and there is not a single textbook that says what you say it means.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Your preference for "in vain" seems to be an attempt to shift the argument. To "believe without reason" is to believe anything other than the gospel, which is not saving faith."

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

Even gr8grace3 will tell you that the salvation of the Corinthians is not in question here.

I've never thought salvation was in question either.

The Greek grammar is being emphatic about their salvation. They are saved.

Of course they are. They didn't believe in vain.

I'm guessing you did not know this.

Just making a lot of wrong guesses, is my guess.

The "unless you believed in vain" is in regard to whether Christ rose from the dead or not (1 Corinthians 15:14,17 NASB).

To believe without reason covers a lot of issues. Including resurrection.

That's what would make their salvic believing (which the text says they surely did) useless.

If they believed without reason, they wouldn't even have "salvific believing" in the first place. That was Paul's point.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Please provide a source (website, book, etc) that shows that he isn't OSAS. I've heard him on TV and read some of his books. So I don't believe your claim. Provide evidence.

It's so incredibly prepostorous that Dr. Jeremiah would say people who hate and reject and deny and don't trust Christ without repentance will be saved at the Judgment and will live in Christ's eternal life afterward. That is so incredibly insane it's amazing that the teaching has any support whatsoever from any Christian anywhere. But Christ did say these days when truth would be cast down to the ground would come. They's here, folks. And it's going to get worse.

 

[JLB]

A huge difference. To "keep a tight grip" clearly suggests you are actively involved in possession. Whereas, "possess" simply indicates ownership. Being given a gift does not involve active participation, yet ownership results.


Not necessarily actively. Possession can easily be passive. JB and others think salvation is something that they are actively involved in possessing. The Bible uses the passive voice when speaking about salvation. That proves that we are NOT actively involved in obtaining salvation or eternal life.


Well, you can't do both at the same time.

But, seriously, "if you possess your house", you simply own it. You may give it away or keep it.

But, to your question, do you literally have a tight grip on the house? Can you actually get your arms around the house in order to actually "hold on to it"? Of course not.

There is a big difference between passive and active possession. If I take your car (or house) key and hold on to it tightly in my hand, I can say that I POSSESS your key. However, the OWNERSHIP of that key is still yours and all I've done is steal it from you.

See the difference?


What language did Jesus speak? And what language did the authors of God's Word use to communicate God's Word?

Let's not split hairs. Since we have many translations and lexicons and Greek grammar texts, we have no excuse NOT to understand what the original language of God's Word means.


I'm sure you're aware that there are translations that are not faithful to the original manuscripts.

This is the A & T Forum.


Please use scripture from an acceptable Bible version.


16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17


JLB

 

[JLB]

I'm explaining that from the past completed action of believing, one is still currently saved. My point, which is continually being ignores, is that the verse give NO conditions for being "still currently saved", or contingencies, which are rife in your position.


And no honest person continues to ignore points that they can't answer or don't want to address.


It's clear enough to understand all by itself.

But I did notice the big hole of escape by noting a "reputable Greek study". I suspect that no matter how many Greek studies I may find, will be met with "but that's not a reputable one".

The point of the perfect tense is that from a completed action of believing in the past, one continues to be saved in the present.

iow, there are no conditions that may alter the on-going results of the past action of believing.

That's the achilles heel of your position, with the claims of how one can lose the state of being saved. The perfect tense doesn't allow that.

This is the A & T Forum.


Please use scripture from an acceptable Bible version.


16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Please provide a source (website, book, etc) that shows that he isn't OSAS. I've heard him on TV and read some of his books. So I don't believe your claim. Provide evidence.

You must have forgotten that you reject traditional OSAS. At least that argument is respectable--in traditional OSAS, people who don't believe and trust in Christ are not going to be saved at the final Judgment. What I assure you of is Dr. Jeremiah is NOT hyper-grace OSAS.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
" Jesus Himself used the present tense in Luke 8:13 then added "for a while", thus proving that the present tense doesn't mean continuously until the end of one's life. Obviously.

The issue of this thread is the perfect tense of "having been SAVED". Not "having believed". The RESULT of believing is being SAVED. That's what is continuing."

Followed by your puzzling comment:

Makes no sense, plus there is no scripture.

In the very first line IS Scripture. Maybe you're not aware that Luke 8:13 is Scripture??

Man's commentary.

What, specifically? It's rather tiring to keep reading all this opinion without any evidence to support said opinions.

So, what is "man's commentary"?

Here is what Jesus Christ taught us.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Please explain your understanding of what "fall away" refers to.

Do you believe, those who believed for a while, then fell away, represent those who are saved?

Of course. Because Jesus didn't go the next step to claim that they lost salvation.

Instead, He promised that those who believe will never perish. John 3:16 The present tense does NOT mean continuous action to the end of one's life. That is an unsubstantiated opinion, without any evidence.

He promised that those He gives eternal life will never perish. John 10:28 He gave no conditions on those He gives eternal life to for never perishing. They already believed. He CLEARLY SAID those He gives eternal life will never perish.

But your position is contrary to what He has promised. Your position has been clearly stated: those who have received eternal life may end up in the second death for a variety of reasons:
1. ceasing to believe
2. various long lists of sins

 

[FreeGrace]

In other words, you're saying there is no official published definition of the Perfect Tense that says it means the continuing completed results will never, and can never, cease.

I never said such a thing. Once again, the perfect tense is past completed action with on-going results. No conditions, no contingencies.

Those who have been saved continue to be saved. The perfect tense doesn't allow for any of the conditions or contingencies that your position claims are necessary to STAY SAVED. The perfect tense doesn't allow such a view.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I never said such a thing. Once again, the perfect tense is past completed action with on-going results. No conditions, no contingencies.

Those who have been saved continue to be saved. The perfect tense doesn't allow for any of the conditions or contingencies that your position claims are necessary to STAY SAVED. The perfect tense doesn't allow such a view.

Why do you ignore all the examples of the Perfect Tense that prove it does not require the completed action to go on forever and ever???????

 

[FreeGrace]

It's so incredibly prepostorous that Dr. Jeremiah would say people who hate and reject and deny and don't trust Christ without repentance will be saved at the Judgment and will live in Christ's eternal life afterward.

I asked for a source to back up your opinion that Dr Jeremiah believes in loss of salvation. I don't care what may be incredibly preposterous to anyone else. I'm only interested in facts. Do you have any?

That is so incredibly insane it's amazing that the teaching has any support whatsoever from any Christian anywhere. But Christ did say these days when truth would be cast down to the ground would come. They's here, folks. And it's going to get worse.

If you're familiar with Dr Jeremiah's ministry, it should be relatively easy to support your claim.

 

[FreeGrace]

This is the A & T Forum.

Please use scripture from an acceptable Bible version.

When dealing with phrase and words FROM THE BIBLE, one refers to a lexicon for meaning. So your 'request" is bogus.

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17JLB

Which is why we all must be diligent by study to show ourselves approved by God, as unashamed workmen, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. 2 Tim 2:15

 

[FreeGrace]

You must have forgotten that you reject traditional OSAS.

My focus is on what the Bible says, not what "traditional" views are.

At least that argument is respectable--in traditional OSAS, people who don't believe and trust in Christ are not going to be saved at the final Judgment.

That's my position as well. Our difference is clear: the Bible never speaks of a saved person who ceases to believe as an unbeliever, as your position does. The Bible calls them apostates, which your position refuses to acknowledge.

What I assure you of is Dr. Jeremiah is NOT hyper-grace OSAS.

You've given this opinion 3 times, and I've asked twice already to provide any evidence that supports your opinion, and you've failed twice to provide any evidence at all.

I'm not interested in your "assurances". I'm interested in FACTS.

Since I have no assurance that your position is biblical, why should I be impressed with any "assurances" from you?

Bottom line; without any evidence, your opinion about Dr Jeremiah is irrelevant.

Facts, not opinions.