Bible Study FAITH, And the Knowledge of God's Righteousness

[ezrider]

Acts 2:14-18
But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:


Joel 2:28
And it shall come to pass afterward,
that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh;
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
your old men shall dream dreams,
your young men shall see visions:


But what saith the prophet?

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[ezrider]

Isaiah 29:6-8
Thou shalt be visited of the Lord of hosts
with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise,
with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.
And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel,
even all that fight against her
and her munition, and that distress her, shall be as a dream of a night vision.
It shall even be as when an hungry man dreameth, and, behold, he eateth;
but he awaketh, and his soul is empty:
or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh;
but he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and his soul hath appetite:
so shall the multitude of all the nations be,
that fight against mount Zion.

Isaiah 29:9-12
Stay yourselves, and wonder;
cry ye out, and cry:
they are drunken, but not with wine;
they stagger, but not with strong drink.
For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep,
and hath closed your eyes:
the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed,
which men deliver to one that is learned,
saying, Read this, I pray thee:
and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
And the book is delivered to him that is not learned,
saying, Read this, I pray thee:
and he saith, I am not learned.

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[ezrider]

Who is learned? Only Jesus was found worthy to open the book? Only the Spirit of Christ can teach you the truth. So study the scriptures to show yourself approved. And when you come to the conclusion the that words of the book are sealed to you, studying does you no more benefit, but could cause further confusion, because the flesh still sees the words of the law.


Isaiah 29:13-14
Wherefore the Lord said,
Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth,
and with their lips do honour me,
but have removed their heart far from me,
and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people,
even a marvellous work and a wonder:
for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish,
and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

Isaiah 29:15-16
Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the Lord,
and their works are in the dark,
and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?
Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay:
for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not?
or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

.

 

[ezrider]

Isaiah 29:18-21
And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book,
and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.
The meek also shall increase their joy in the Lord,
and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.
For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed,
and all that watch for iniquity are cut off:
That make a man an offender for a word,
and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate,
and turn aside the just for a thing of nought.


Are you still watching for iniquity? You still watching the gay movement? Still watching for iniquity in political parties? Still looking at the things that pertain to this world?

Are you looking for sin and iniquity, Or are you looking to know the Righteousness that belongs to the Lord?

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[smaller]

jethro used it as a comparison you and ez agreed he was.... but then again i only have a 4 th grade education lol

Don't aks me why but I'm going to give this one last shot in HOPE that you understand a very simple premise. You say for example that I agree that Jethro is an evil unsaved hypocrite. I won't speak for EZ, but here is what I tried, quite simply, to explain to YOU:

Romans 7:
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Now, Mr. Jethro claims the indwelling sin and the evil present with him is "legally obedient." I will point to Paul above and see that NO MORE I-indwelling sin and EVIL PRESENT is not legally obedient nor is it even possible for these workings to be legally obedient, yet alone "saved."

The evil present with NO ONE, the sin dwelling in NO ONE cooperates with the Gospel. The evil present with NO ONE, the sin indwelling NO ONE is obedient to the Gospel.

These workings in "ALL" are opposers to the Gospel and do the opposite of the Gospel.

Evil present with ALL of us and sin indwelling our flesh is NOT under the Grace of God in Christ and is NOT under the Mercy of God in Christ.

IF you manage to see this, particularly perhaps even for yourself, we may actually have a coherent conversation about "Bible Study" sometime.

None of the above is meant to be an offense to any believer. It's just a hard line FACT of the Word of God that can't be changed by anyone but God in Christ Himself, ala Phil. 3:21, which is our mutual HOPE in/of the Gospel.

In the meantime we all "suffer" these conditions of fact. NOW, did I say anything derogatory about JETHRO???

OR did you manage to see I'm speaking about the indwelling sin in the flesh of ALL of us and the evil present with ALL OF US, that Paul described as NO MORE I???

When you see the difference between JETHRO and indwelling sin-evil present, THEN we'll see ALIKE. And there will be no offense to you, I, Jethro or EZ. But we WILL all have to observe the things we might not care to look upon in our own flesh.

Keep in mind evil present and indwelling sin will NOT cooperate with that sight.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Error upon error has been compounding in the Protestant church to the point that we are seeing these hyper-grace doctrines leading people astray. A person is not 'under the law' if they read the Bible and then seek to obey it's commands. That's a ludicrous suggestion. But I understand that thinking springs from people who do not defeat sin through the power of the Holy Spirit:

"walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh." (Galatians 5:16 NASB bold and underline mine)

That is the answer to not sinning--walk by the Spirit. The answer is not to just resign yourself to a life of sinful evil dwelling in you. That just shows, according to John, that you are not even born again in the first place (1 John 3:10 NASB).

A person is 'under the law' when they seek to obey the law in order to be justified. (I only know of a single 'Christian' who said that they needed to do that). Or they are 'under the law' by simply not being born again and, thus, are still bound to the power of their fleshly desires, which gives the law the power and authority over them to condemn them and keep them in bondage to their flesh.

But all of those things that put a person 'under' the law end when a person instead seeks justification through the forgiveness of sin via the blood of Jesus through faith. The born again person is not under the law anymore because 1) he is not seeking to be justified (made righteous) by the keeping of God's righteous requirements, 2) the power of sinful flesh is broken by the indwelling Holy Spirit whom God gives a person in response to their faith and trust in God's forgiveness, and 3) the law no longer has the hook of their flesh to keep them in bondage to the flesh.

But because the church does not know this (generally speaking, of course), these false doctrine of God's grace makes it so all you have to be is 'honest' about your sin, while you freely and without conscience revel in your sinful lives, and you'll be 'okay' with him, even being declared faithful and righteous for thinking that way. That is what the church is redefining 'righteous' to mean these days. We are in a really bad, bad time in church history. I believe these hyper-grace doctrines are the final end-time doctrines that are leading the great falling away prophesied before the second appearing of Christ. Darkness is now light. Light is now darkness Bitter is now sweet. Sweet is now bitter, and so on.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Now, Mr. Jethro claims the indwelling sin and the evil present with him is "legally obedient."

Oh, by the way......I have never made such a claim.
Sin, by definition, is not obedient to the law (1 John 3:4 NASB). While obedience obviously is.
A person is either sinning in any given moment and situation, or he is not.

When I sin I'm being disobedient to the righteous requirements of God. When I don't sin, but rather walk according to the Spirit, I'm being obedient to the righteous requirements of God.

"4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." (Romans 8:4 NASB)

 

[ezra]

Don't aks me why but I'm going to give this one last shot in HOPE that you understand a very simple premise. You say for example that I agree that Jethro is an evil unsaved hypocrite. I won't speak for EZ, but here is what I tried, quite simply, to explain to YOU:

Romans 7:
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Now, Mr. Jethro claims the indwelling sin and the evil present with him is "legally obedient." I will point to Paul above and see that NO MORE I-indwelling sin and EVIL PRESENT is not legally obedient nor is it even possible for these workings to be legally obedient, yet alone "saved."

The evil present with NO ONE, the sin dwelling in NO ONE cooperates with the Gospel. The evil present with NO ONE, the sin indwelling NO ONE is obedient to the Gospel.

These workings in "ALL" are opposers to the Gospel and do the opposite of the Gospel.

Evil present with ALL of us and sin indwelling our flesh is NOT under the Grace of God in Christ and is NOT under the Mercy of God in Christ.

IF you manage to see this, particularly perhaps even for yourself, we may actually have a coherent conversation about "Bible Study" sometime.

None of the above is meant to be an offense to any believer. It's just a hard line FACT of the Word of God that can't be changed by anyone but God in Christ Himself, ala Phil. 3:21, which is our mutual HOPE in/of the Gospel.

In the meantime we all "suffer" these conditions of fact. NOW, did I say anything derogatory about JETHRO???

OR did you manage to see I'm speaking about the indwelling sin in the flesh of ALL of us and the evil present with ALL OF US, that Paul described as NO MORE I???

When you see the difference between JETHRO and indwelling sin-evil present, THEN we'll see ALIKE. And there will be no offense to you, I, Jethro or EZ. But we WILL all have to observe the things we might not care to look upon in our own flesh.

Keep in mind evil present and indwelling sin will NOT cooperate with that sight.

you gave it your best shot and still come short.. your doctrine is of calvinism parts i can agree with parts i will not . i have debated done email correspondence with a man who did every thing he could to convince me of converting to calvinism/ reformed theology. he soon gave up. this entire post of faith and knowledge is about as interesting as listening to hank/ bible man radio program...he is a very intelligent man.. but loves to use big fancy words .the Gospel must ne kept to a level of understanding.. for the most i see gnat straining . even though i do lean toward jethro post

 

[smaller]

you gave it your best shot and still come short.. your doctrine is of calvinism parts i can agree with parts i will not . i have debated done email correspondence with a man who did every thing he could to convince me of converting to calvinism/ reformed theology.

Determinism? Yes. Calvinism? Nope. I do believe God is in control of all things in His creation. Acts 17:24-25. My bad?

this entire post of faith and knowledge is about as interesting as listening to hank/ bible man radio program...he is a very intelligent man.. but loves to use big fancy words .the Gospel must ne kept to a level of understanding.. for the most i see gnat straining . even though i do lean toward jethro post

Ah, a works salvation proponent then? You know my main counter observation is what Paul noted prior, and I cited. That the sin dwelling in the flesh of any person and the evil present with them is not and can not "perform" in any case, Romans 7:17-21, which notation the works folk don't care to hear and always bypass, because these things, these operations in/of the flesh love to "self justify."

Luke 18:
9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are,

Luke 10:29
But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

Perhaps the most interesting thing about Christian theology is that there is always a point, and an equally opposing counter point. And both the point and the counter point apply to each person. Paul KNEW there was no excuses available for him. He was the chief of sinners, after salvation. 1 Tim. 1:15. You won't hear Paul trying to justify the sin indwelling his flesh and the evil present with him, ever. You'll hear the opposite, the COUNTER POINT. At least believers will. The indwelling sin/evil present ACTIVELY RESIST hearing.

I don't expect too many to understand though. WE LIVE by both the point, and the counter point, Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4

 

[smaller]

Oh, by the way......I have never made such a claim.
Sin, by definition, is not obedient to the law (1 John 3:4 NASB). While obedience obviously is.
A person is either sinning in any given moment and situation, or he is not.

When I sin I'm being disobedient to the righteous requirements of God. When I don't sin, but rather walk according to the Spirit, I'm being obedient to the righteous requirements of God.

"4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." (Romans 8:4 NASB)

The point you've never gotten is that indwelling sin/evil present won't and can't obey, be legal, be justified, be under Grace, be under Mercy or follow the law.

NONE of the above happens, regardless of what any believer claims. However we paint ourselves, it is NEVER honest because evil present with us is NEVER honest. Romans 7:17-21.

I know it's a hard principle to understand, granted. And that is because those 'factual adverse matters' actively resist Gods Facts. They never quit resisting.

That's why Paul observed this:

Romans 7:
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

And anyone who thinks they are 'only good' is actually only lying to themselves and being pawned by 'evil present' with them. And they are likewise, hypocrites.

Another notation that your positional sights don't understand is that Paul described the above as 'NO MORE I.' So, when assaulting these workings of indwelling sin/evil present, we are NOT assaulting or slurring the believer. We are observing "NO MORE I."

For every believer they come, virtually hand in hand, with NO MORE I. Romans 7:17 & 20.

There is then Jethro, and there is NO MORE I. If Jethro doesn't happen to see it, the fact picture doesn't change in any case because it's still a fact. Jethro may very well do a good thing, and even love his neighbor as himself. But, NO MORE I never will, nor can it.

It's a catch 22 of Christian theology. Meant to "keep balance."

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Luke 18:
9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

In hyper-grace theology, by virtue of claiming that I actually once 'loved my neighbor as myself' that automatically put me in the 'trying to justify myself' category. Meanwhile, them being honest in saying that they don't ever do that (love your neighbor as yourself) makes them the righteousness of Christ. They haven't even bothered to ask me if I'm trying to earn a declaration of righteousness from God by doing right things. Didn't even ask. They just assumed that and jumped right to the condemning part.

Perhaps the most interesting thing about Christian theology is that there is always a point, and an equally opposing counter point. And both the point and the counter point apply to each person. Paul KNEW there was no excuses available for him. He was the chief of sinners, after salvation. 1 Tim. 1:15. You won't hear Paul trying to justify the sin indwelling his flesh and the evil present with him, ever. You'll hear the opposite, the COUNTER POINT. At least believers will. The indwelling sin/evil present ACTIVELY RESIST hearing.

I don't expect too many to understand though. WE LIVE by both the point, and the counter point, Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4

Hyper-grace folk, give this a try sometime:

16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

It actually works sometimes. You won't be a hypocritical, self-righteous, holier-than-thou Pharisee for doing it. You'll be showing yourself to be a son of God, if you really are one:

"all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God." (Romans 8:14 NASB bold mine)
"you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him." (Romans 8:9 NASB)

Hyper-grace doctrine rationalizes unrepentant sin in the name of righteous honesty and they call that the 'righteousness of faith', while actually being righteous in deed is erroneously called the 'righteousness of the law'. They don't seem to care that unrepentant sin is not evidence of a righteousness that comes from faith, but rather the evidence of not having the Holy Spirit through a born again experience. When one has the righteousness that comes from having your sins forgiven (the righteousness of faith), they will be growing out of their sinful ways, not being hardened in them.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The point you've never gotten is that indwelling sin/evil present won't and can't obey, be legal, be justified, be under Grace, be under Mercy or follow the law.

NONE of the above happens, regardless of what any believer claims. However we paint ourselves, it is NEVER honest because evil present with us is NEVER honest. Romans 7:17-21.

I know it's a hard principle to understand, granted. And that is because those 'factual adverse matters' actively resist Gods Facts. They never quit resisting.

That's why Paul observed this:

Romans 7:
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

And anyone who thinks they are 'only good' is actually only lying to themselves and being pawned by 'evil present' with them. And they are likewise, hypocrites.

Another notation that your positional sights don't understand is that Paul described the above as 'NO MORE I.' So, when assaulting these workings of indwelling sin/evil present, we are NOT assaulting or slurring the believer. We are observing "NO MORE I."

For every believer they come, virtually hand in hand, with NO MORE I. Romans 7:17 & 20.

There is then Jethro, and there is NO MORE I. If Jethro doesn't happen to see it, the fact picture doesn't change in any case because it's still a fact. Jethro may very well do a good thing, and even love his neighbor as himself. But, NO MORE I never will, nor can it.

It's a catch 22 of Christian theology. Meant to "keep balance."

The heresy of Gnosticism was kicked out of the church a looooooooong time ago.
It's being revived as a means to rationalize unrepentant sin in the Christian's life, little knowing that what unrepentant sin does is show that person to simply not be born again (John 3:10 NASB). I didn't say it......John did.

 

[smaller]

In hyper-grace theology,

You keep playing that canard Jethro. Do you hear me trying to justify the indwelling sin and evil present with anyone? NOPE! Trying tuning in the channel to accuracy.

by virtue of claiming that I actually once 'loved my neighbor as myself' that automatically put me in the 'trying to justify myself' category.

Jethro may very well actually love his neighbor. Debateable point, but let's say you do. The counter point is that evil present, indwelling sin not only won't do that, but can't. Romans 7:17-21. This is NOT a difficult concept.

What you claim is hyper Grace is actually the opposite. IT is the absolute refusal to justify indwelling sin/evil present.

 

[smaller]

The heresy of Gnosticism was kicked out of the church a looooooooong time ago.
It's being revived as a means to rationalize unrepentant sin in the Christian's life, little knowing that what unrepentant sin does is show that person to simply not be born again (John 3:10 NASB). I didn't say it......John did.

You can toss as many canards as you care to Jethro. The facts of scripture are the facts on the table.

Any believer who tries to justify indwelling sin/evil present is NOT in truth.
Any believer who wants to look away from the fact of having same is NOT in truth.
Any believer who thinks their "whole package" is just hunky dory with God in Christ is NOT in truth.

We are to divide from iniquity. But to divide we should first divide that we do have it to 'depart from.'

 

[ezra]

Determinism? Yes. Calvinism? Nope. I do believe God is in control of all things in His creation. Acts 17:24-25. My bad?


Ah, a works salvation proponent then? You know my main counter observation is what Paul noted prior, and I cited. That the sin dwelling in the flesh of any person and the evil present with them is not and can not "perform" in any case, Romans 7:17-21, which notation the works folk don't care to hear and always bypass, because these things, these operations in/of the flesh love to "self justify."

Luke 18:
9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are,

Luke 10:29
But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

Perhaps the most interesting thing about Christian theology is that there is always a point, and an equally opposing counter point. And both the point and the counter point apply to each person. Paul KNEW there was no excuses available for him. He was the chief of sinners, after salvation. 1 Tim. 1:15. You won't hear Paul trying to justify the sin indwelling his flesh and the evil present with him, ever. You'll hear the opposite, the COUNTER POINT. At least believers will. The indwelling sin/evil present ACTIVELY RESIST hearing.

I don't expect too many to understand though. WE LIVE by both the point, and the counter point, Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4

your gps has led you off course especially trying to guess my belief. hope your find the main road again c yaaaaaaaa

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Any believer who tries to justify indwelling sin/evil present is NOT in truth.

Define how you are using the word 'justify'. You are either using the wrong word to convey what you're saying, or you do not really know what the word means and are using it improperly, thus making your argument incoherent to the rest of us.

Any believer who wants to look away from the fact of having same is NOT in truth.

Having 'same' what??????

Any believer who thinks their "whole package" is just hunky dory with God in Christ is NOT in truth.

If I sin, and then confess it, what is there not 'hunky dory' with God about the matter after that? Is God keeping a secret file on me and really hasn't forgiven my sin when I ask?

It's unconfessed sin that leaves a person in a less than 'hunky dory' state. The irony being that is exactly what hyper-grace doctrine endorses. It says to simply accept your sinful ways without repentance, and worst of all, that is the righteousness that comes by faith.

Do you hear me trying to justify the indwelling sin and evil present with anyone?

I hear you rationalizing indwelling, unrepentant sin and calling the people who do that righteous believers. And then calling people who repentant unrighteous, lying hypocrites.

Jethro may very well actually love his neighbor. Debateable point

Why is it debatable? Because you don't actually love your neighbor and so surely it's not possible that neither does anybody else?

The counter point is that evil present, indwelling sin not only won't do that, but can't. Romans 7:17-21.

You have to stop personifying sin as if it's a little creature running around inside of you who will never get saved, but for whom you do not have to give an account. That is the source of this frustratingly ridiculous theology you endorse in this forum. You're ruining Paul's lesson in obedience in Romans 7 & 8.

 

[ezrider]

It's unconfessed sin that leaves a person in a less than 'hunky dory' state.

How so? Splain yourself. If a person walking by faith under Grace has unconfessed sin, then does the wrath of God abide on them?

 

[smaller]

your gps has led you off course especially trying to guess my belief. hope your find the main road again c yaaaaaaaa

Thanks for the pit stop exemplifying the difficulty of communications.

 

[smaller]

I hear you rationalizing indwelling, unrepentant sin and calling the people who do that righteous believers. And then calling people who repentant unrighteous, lying hypocrites.

I'd suggest you're tuned in to your own channel on that one.

 

[ezra]

Thanks for the pit stop exemplifying the difficulty of communications.

no difficulty of communications on my part. you was trying to connect me to a work based salvation ..nice try but no cigar. you see i been set free from the law of sin and death Romans 8: 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. the law only tells us what sin is .never did never could fix anything...as long as i am rooted and grounded in Him .that is the only thing that matters..the rest is dung as Paul wrote . curious are you a gangster or a rapper ? Splain yourself ? what is splain ? is that any thing like ya want to ? or you have a old toilet filled with dirt that has flowers growing in it.. on your front lawn ...