Justification and Sanctification

[PeterJens]

Where?
If it’s passage you mean:

Do you not know that you are God’s temple and the Spirit of God is dwelling in you?​

1 Corinthians 3:16 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 3:16&version=DLNT

How do you know it is the body (versus the soul) in which the Holy Spirit dwells?

18> Flee sexual immorality! “Every sin a person commits is outside of the body” – but the immoral person sins against his own body.
19> Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?
1 Corinthians 6:18-19

16> Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you?
17> If someone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, which is what you are.
1 cor 3:16-17

Paul is talking about the very physical body of the believer, or it appears to be so, as he mentions
"your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit." That appears pretty clear cut.

 

[Northman]

There is no such thing as being sealed with the Holy Spirit forever.

Yeah that isn't what you said though.

Study up on Paul.

How about I don't do what you say?

Paul went off into the desert for three years and received revelation. He says so himself.
Galatians 1:11 to 2:2

He did speak to the Apostle Peter after his three years in the desert, in Jerusalem. He also me with James, Jesus' brother. Paul stayed with Peter 2 weeks, no doubt they discussed the revelations he (Paul) had received.
Galatians 1:18

Because they were exchanging information and getting "input" as you called it, does not mean the input was not inspired. Peter was with Jesus over 3 years, as was James in Jesus' ministry, although he had spend a life-time with Him.
So in no case is the bible to be used as you said...rather crudely I must say.

Yeah Galatians 1:12 tells us where exactly he got the revelation from. It says he received it from Christ directly, and then goes to Arabia and Damascus. It doesn't say he received revelation in the desert. Anyone that asserts what Paul was doing in the desert does so on their own steam, and hopefully they get burnt by it and know never to do that sort of thing again. The idea that conversations took place between Paul and those he was staying with that contributed or modified the revelation given to him by Christ has to be forced in. Even if you think it practical as in just something people would do, it isn't written. What was written is that he received it from Christ alone.

I see you don't care to discuss the "sealing".

What is there to discuss? He said people were sealed with the Holy Spirit. An apostle said it and I accept it. What I absolutely cannot accept is anything that someone comes along later and tries to explain about it. If God wanted the apostle to expound on it, He would have had him write it down. So anything that comes from the mouth of person after is going to be regarded by me as someones idea and maybe even a possibility but by absolutely no means is it the truth that must be adhered to.

But do not trust on these versus for your salvation.
We are sealed for as long as we wish to remain sealed.
Many leave the faith and the sealing is of no use to them since they are no longer "sealed".

And this is the reason why. None of these things you just said about being sealed is written there. You are doing the thing where you try to put two and two together to come up with four and in the process of arguing so vehemently against this OSAS position, you went and dropped a bomb that looked like...

NO SUCH THING AS BEING SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT.

Yes. Because I said so.

That was baloney, regardless of the context. Why? Because it says people were. Ephesians 1:13 says the actual words. Then to go on and say Paul wouldn't have written them if he only knew, like you somehow know. Your explanation of inspired didn't help that statement to be right, even if you did perceive it for yourself. When you have things this critical as just stuff to agree to disagree on, don't be surprised when nobody buys into the idea as a whole. And I wont tell you to believe me. The evidence is actually there, these things go on and on and on with no minds changed about anything, on either side. They have to be about the most unprofitable conversations possible.

 

[Northman]

I think you have me mixed up with someone else.

I agree with what the scriptures say.

In fact here is what I said, in the post you quoted.





JLB

No there wasn't a mix up. I think you were just too busy talking at people trying to steer them from OSAS that you didn't actually read and see what in this case was actually being discussed. Your post, #467, quoted something by me that had nothing to do with each other. I already know from our previous interactions that if a verse and just a verse is posted you say yes and amen, as do I.

 

[FreeGrace]

Hi Free,
God can choose to keep His word or break it.

Absolutely not. This is what the Bible says about God's integrity.

Titus 1:2 - in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time,
Heb 6:18 - God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope set before us may be greatly encouraged.

I think it's clear to everyone that "breaking one's word" is the SAME as LYING. And the Bible says that God not only 'DOES NOT LIE', BUT 'IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD TO LIE'.

Not only that, but this is a command for believers:
Col 3:9 - Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices

Not only does breaking one's word mean they have no integrity, if God did break His word, after commanding His children not to lie, He would be a huge hypocrite.

Who is there to dispute what He meant or how He meant
it other than Himself.

God's Word is internally consistent. We must look to Scripture to define and understand Scripture.

He provides conditional promises all the time, and calls His people to follow, obey,
love, care, learn, grow, be transformed, minister, give, sacrifice.

Yes. So what? How do His conditional promises relate to your claim that God can break His word??

 

[chessman]

Paul is talking about the very physical body of the believer, or it appears to be so,

At first glance. But upon further inspection actually he’s talking about the bodies (plural) of the church, not the individual’s body.

Do you [2nd person plural] not know that your bodies are body-parts of Christ? Therefore, having taken-away the body-parts of Christ, shall I make them body-parts of a prostitute? May it never be!​

1 Corinthians 6:15 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 6:15&version=DLNT

I wish there was a Southern translation that used y’All (where appropriate to the original).

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

"FreeGrace said: ↑
Thanks for acknowledging the weakness of your position; it is just your opinion. My focus is on what Scripture says, which is why I quote Scripture. That's not opinion; it's the Truth.

And the verses don't "imply" anything. They DIRECTLY STATE that salvation is by faith."

I am not Mcoop.


I am not. But I thought your views were that salvation is by faith plus works. Did I miss something?

You're right in saying you're not Mcoop. I apologize . My bad . I was addressing the question to Mcoop. Anyway I do strongly believe obedience will play a major role in salvation, which is entirely the discretion of God Almighty and His Lamb.
John MacArthur realized (IMO) folly of many Churches who are preaching saved by faith alone doctrine and in his sermon he points that out . He clearly states many Christians might be heading towards hell. Which is a strong statement. I leave it to you to interprete it as you would like . My conviction is each deed we have performed will be scrutinized and judged and accordingly we will be rewarded or punished. According to saved by faith alone doctrine many Christians will get heaven , where they will be punished , if they performed sinful deeds?
Or perhaps punished first and then sent to heaven ?
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whetherit be good or bad.( 2Cor 5:10)
And again in
Revelation 20:12 ►
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
Revelation 21:27 ►
Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

I'm also surprised when I hear pastors /teachers issue guarantee of salvation to those who responded to their Altar call and others as well. How can anyone know whose name is in Lamb's book of life and whose name is not ? This only God and the Lamb knows. Why then is salvation guarantee being handed out to everyone who claimed they believed.
Isnt this faulty doctrine and requires immediate correction? I believe it does and I'm now taking up this issue with several churches. Some of them accepted that the "salvation" CAN Be lost, if we fail to abide in the Lord, despite accepting Christ as Savior

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

The conclusion I draw ( and it's my opinion )from what is being taught in majority of the churches in United States, unfortunately amounts to Heresy since these Churches have either completely eliminated importance of obedience in their salvation doctrine or have drastically minimized it. Can anyone please tell me why Christ's hand-picked Apostles were obedient to the point of death if they knew obedience played no part in their salvation. They already believed. Why didn't they run away from the scene of trouble and lived out a life in happy security they were already saved by grace through Faith in Jesus. They didn't do that . They chose to lay down their lives for the gospel and the Lord
My other question is did Christ place a special onus on the Apostles or are we also expected by the Lord to be obedient to the point of death?
If yes , will He be disappointed if He sees us UNPRODUCTIVE and unfruitful, and happy and complacent in our guranteed salvation, just because we elected to believe ?
Finally my dear friends What doctrine are we teaching? Is it Biblically accurate and sound ?
It just occurred to me I'm protesting hard against the teaching of the Protestant Church The "reformed" Church badly needs Reformation IMO, and pretty pronto, since the end times are here

 

[FreeGrace]

You're right in saying you're not Mcoop. I apologize . My bad . I was addressing the question to Mcoop. Anyway I do strongly believe obedience will play a major role in salvation, which is entirely the discretion of God Almighty and His Lamb.

In spite of the many verses that clearly state that salvation and eternal life are by faith in Christ, without any mention of works, deeds, obedience?

How about Eph 2;8,9?
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

And, there are no verses that say one is saved by faith plus works.

So, what verses seem to support your view?

John MacArthur realized (IMO) folly of many Churches who are preaching saved by faith alone doctrine and in his sermon he points that out .

Yes, his "Lordship salvation" theology does lead to that conclusion. But it's still simply wrong.

I'll give 2 examples from Scripture that shows his error.

Matt 7:21-23. Jesus is speaking about the final judgment (GWT) and the crowd is appealing to Him on entrance into the kingdom on the basis of their works. They even call Him Lord. And they did their works in His name. Yet, He tells them He never knew (in the intimate sense) them. iow, they never had relationship with Him. Why not? They were trusting in their own works to impress Him.

I would imagine that John MacArthur would have been impressed with them, though.

1 Pet 3:15 - But in your hearts sanctify (set apart) Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

Who was this addressed to? Believers. So, believers are commanded to set apart Christ AS LORD.

Yet JM believes that unless one has already made Christ Lord of their lives, they aren't saved. So he puts the cart before the horse, so to speak.

Only a saved person can make Christ Lord of their lives.

He clearly states many Christians might be heading towards hell.

Yet Jesus stated even more clearly that those He gives eternal life shall NEVER PERISH. I have no idea if JM is even aware of John 10:28.

Which is a strong statement.

And quite wrong.

I leave it to you to interprete it as you would like .

There is nothing to interpret in either what you claim JM has said and what Jesus did say.

My conviction is each deed we have performed will be scrutinized and judged and accordingly we will be rewarded or punished.

I don't disagree. But, none of this is even remotely related to getting or staying saved. All believers will be judged at the Bema, per 2 Cor 5:10. The purpose is for reward, or loss of same. There will be no punishment.

According to saved by faith alone doctrine many Christians will get heaven , where they will be punished

I'm unaware of ANYONE who believes in eternal security who believes that believers will be punished in heaven. That is sheer nonsense.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whetherit be good or bad.( 2Cor 5:10)
And again in
Revelation 20:12 ►
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

Both of these verses are directly about being rewarded for faithful obedient service to our Lord.

I'm also surprised when I hear pastors /teachers issue guarantee of salvation to those who responded to their Altar call and others as well.

Altar calls are unbiblical. The Bible calls on people to put their faith in Christ, not walk an aisle, raise their hand, etc. Or even repeat some prayer spoken by someone else.

How can anyone know whose name is in Lamb's book of life and whose name is not ?

Easy. Believe what the Bible says about it.
John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

This only God and the Lamb knows. Why then is salvation guarantee being handed out to everyone who claimed they believed.

You're mistaken. It's not handed out "to everyone who CLAIMED they believe. Salvation is NOT about what people CLAIM.

Salvation and eternal life are given to those WHO BELIEVE. I care not what people CLAIM. The only issue is what people have believed.

Isnt this faulty doctrine and requires immediate correction?

Through out your post and comments I have corrected the errors.

I believe it does and I'm now taking up this issue with several churches. Some of them accepted that the "salvation" CAN Be lost, if we fail to abide in the Lord, despite accepting Christ as Savior

Jesus made 3 very important points about one's salvation.

POINT 1: those who believe in Him POSSESS eternal life. John 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 6:40,47, 11;25-27, 20:31, 1 John 5:13
POINT 2: Jesus is the Giver of eternal life. John 10:28a
POINT 3: Recipients of eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28b

This is the biblical docrine of eternal security. And many reject it because their own efforts/works/deeds are left out. And it seems they want to be able to contribute to their salvation in some way.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

In spite of the many verses that clearly state that salvation and eternal life are by faith in Christ, without any mention of works, deeds, obedience?

How about Eph 2;8,9?
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

And, there are no verses that say one is saved by faith plus works.

So, what verses seem to support your view?


Yes, his "Lordship salvation" theology does lead to that conclusion. But it's still simply wrong.

I'll give 2 examples from Scripture that shows his error.

Matt 7:21-23. Jesus is speaking about the final judgment (GWT) and the crowd is appealing to Him on entrance into the kingdom on the basis of their works. They even call Him Lord. And they did their works in His name. Yet, He tells them He never knew (in the intimate sense) them. iow, they never had relationship with Him. Why not? They were trusting in their own works to impress Him.

I would imagine that John MacArthur would have been impressed with them, though.

1 Pet 3:15 - But in your hearts sanctify (set apart) Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

Who was this addressed to? Believers. So, believers are commanded to set apart Christ AS LORD.

Yet JM believes that unless one has already made Christ Lord of their lives, they aren't saved. So he puts the cart before the horse, so to speak.

Only a saved person can make Christ Lord of their lives.


Yet Jesus stated even more clearly that those He gives eternal life shall NEVER PERISH. I have no idea if JM is even aware of John 10:28.


And quite wrong.


There is nothing to interpret in either what you claim JM has said and what Jesus did say.


I don't disagree. But, none of this is even remotely related to getting or staying saved. All believers will be judged at the Bema, per 2 Cor 5:10. The purpose is for reward, or loss of same. There will be no punishment.


I'm unaware of ANYONE who believes in eternal security who believes that believers will be punished in heaven. That is sheer nonsense.


Both of these verses are directly about being rewarded for faithful obedient service to our Lord.


Altar calls are unbiblical. The Bible calls on people to put their faith in Christ, not walk an aisle, raise their hand, etc. Or even repeat some prayer spoken by someone else.


Easy. Believe what the Bible says about it.
John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.


You're mistaken. It's not handed out "to everyone who CLAIMED they believe. Salvation is NOT about what people CLAIM.

Salvation and eternal life are given to those WHO BELIEVE. I care not what people CLAIM. The only issue is what people have believed.


Through out your post and comments I have corrected the errors.


Jesus made 3 very important points about one's salvation.

POINT 1: those who believe in Him POSSESS eternal life. John 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 6:40,47, 11;25-27, 20:31, 1 John 5:13
POINT 2: Jesus is the Giver of eternal life. John 10:28a
POINT 3: Recipients of eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28b

This is the biblical docrine of eternal security. And many reject it because their own efforts/works/deeds are left out. And it seems they want to be able to contribute to their salvation in some way.

My apologies Free , but I beg to disagree with your views. To me it's Crystal clear, the message of the Bible , that Faith without works is dead ( as explained by NT writer James) and therefore incapable of saving anyone. I would rather accept renowned bible scholar and master John MacArthur's views than yours ( submitted respectfully)

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

My apologies Free , but I beg to disagree with your views. To me it's Crystal clear, the message of the Bible , that Faith without works is dead ( as explained by NT writer James) and therefore incapable of saving anyone. I would rather accept renowned bible scholar and master John MacArthur's views than yours ( submitted respectfully)

James 2:24-25 ►
You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
In the same way, was not even Rahab the sex-worker considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?
I sincerely feel friends that when we rip off obedience from message of the Lord , it's like plucking out the SOUL of a human being . Keeping commands of the Lord is HONORING Him.
All those who do not keep Lords commands (but look for other verses to hide behind) are liars in my opinion since that is exactly what Apostle John teaches .
Enlightening Excerpt from
https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-too...esus-and-his-apostles-affirm-the-need-to-obey
The apostle John said in 1 John 2:4 : “Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, ‘I know Him,’ and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked” (1 John 2:3-6).

Even the apostle Paul, who is most often cited by those attempting to do away with God’s law, himself refuted this erroneous idea, saying, “Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ” (1 Corinthians 11:1). Far from condemning the law, Paul said, “The law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good” (Romans 7:12) and, “I delight in the law of God” (Romans 7:22). Indeed, he said that “keeping the commandments of God is what matters” (1 Corinthians 7:19).

We must avoid reading our own ideas into the Bible. Quoting from the prophet Isaiah, our Savior warned against trusting our own ideas instead of the laws of God: “ ‘This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men … All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition” (Mark 7:6-9).

We, too, must be sure we follow Christ’s example instead of our own ideas!

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

As I continue to study the message that is being taught by majority of Churches in US , I am convinced it's heresy. Since it is producing believers who are willing to accept Christ as Savior but find absolutely no need to OBEY Him, thus nullifying his sacrifice on the cross. Why did He at all die for us , I wonder, if we choose not to Obey Him? Unfortunately it's teduced to becoming a business deal , the message that is being taught nowadays by many Churches. Like the believer telling Christ " I believed in your story , now where is my SALVATION ?!
This is NO Christianity IMO. It's a very very sad state of affairs with ( unfortunately) disastrous consequences. And all teachers who taught this message will likely be held accountable by the Lord. It saddens me deeply. Often times it upsets me. How did the powerful Word of God end up like this ? I simply fail to understand.

 

[GodsGrace]

At first glance. But upon further inspection actually he’s talking about the bodies (plural) of the church, not the individual’s body.

Do you [2nd person plural] not know that your bodies are body-parts of Christ? Therefore, having taken-away the body-parts of Christ, shall I make them body-parts of a prostitute? May it never be!​

1 Corinthians 6:15 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 6:15&version=DLNT

I wish there was a Southern translation that used y’All (where appropriate to the original).

I do believe you're right here.

Let me try, tell me if this is what you mean:
I'll be using the KJV:
"Do you (it doesn't matter if it's plural or not) not know that YOUR bodies (1st person singular) are the members of Christ?"
Each and everyone of our bodies, individually, are the members of the Body of Christ.

"Shall I then take the members of Christ"
(everyone of us on an individual basis)
"and make them an member of a harlot".
(and make each and every body, individually a member of a harlot).
"God forbid!"

Why are we always into English lessons with you???

 

[JLB]

Anyway I do strongly believe obedience will play a major role in salvation,

No question.

No one is saved unless they obey the Gospel.

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8

• on those who do not obey the gospel

JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

As I continue to study the message that is being taught by majority of Churches in US , I am convinced it's heresy. Since it is producing believers who are willing to accept Christ as Savior but find absolutely no need to OBEY Him, thus nullifying his sacrifice on the cross. Why did He at all die for us , I wonder, if we choose not to Obey Him? Unfortunately it's teduced to becoming a business deal , the message that is being taught nowadays by many Churches. Like the believer telling Christ " I believed in your story , now where is my SALVATION ?!
This is NO Christianity IMO. It's a very very sad state of affairs with ( unfortunately) disastrous consequences. And all teachers who taught this message will likely be held accountable by the Lord. It saddens me deeply. Often times it upsets me. How did the powerful Word of God end up like this ? I simply fail to understand.

Teachers will answer to God...
James 3:1
Teachers will incur a stricter judgement. Why? Because they were required to teach those who do not know, and they were to teach what is taught in the New Testament ... by Jesus and His apostles and those that came after. NOT what the world today would LIKE to hear.
1 Timothy 4:1
2 Timothy 4:3

and as confirmed by Luke:48b
"And from everyone who has been given much, shall much be required."
NASB

 

[GodsGrace]

Yeah that isn't what you said though.

How about I don't do what you say?

Yeah Galatians 1:12 tells us where exactly he got the revelation from. It says he received it from Christ directly, and then goes to Arabia and Damascus. It doesn't say he received revelation in the desert. Anyone that asserts what Paul was doing in the desert does so on their own steam, and hopefully they get burnt by it and know never to do that sort of thing again. The idea that conversations took place between Paul and those he was staying with that contributed or modified the revelation given to him by Christ has to be forced in. Even if you think it practical as in just something people would do, it isn't written. What was written is that he received it from Christ alone.

What is there to discuss? He said people were sealed with the Holy Spirit. An apostle said it and I accept it. What I absolutely cannot accept is anything that someone comes along later and tries to explain about it. If God wanted the apostle to expound on it, He would have had him write it down. So anything that comes from the mouth of person after is going to be regarded by me as someones idea and maybe even a possibility but by absolutely no means is it the truth that must be adhered to.

And this is the reason why. None of these things you just said about being sealed is written there. You are doing the thing where you try to put two and two together to come up with four and in the process of arguing so vehemently against this OSAS position, you went and dropped a bomb that looked like...

That was baloney, regardless of the context. Why? Because it says people were. Ephesians 1:13 says the actual words. Then to go on and say Paul wouldn't have written them if he only knew, like you somehow know. Your explanation of inspired didn't help that statement to be right, even if you did perceive it for yourself. When you have things this critical as just stuff to agree to disagree on, don't be surprised when nobody buys into the idea as a whole. And I wont tell you to believe me. The evidence is actually there, these things go on and on and on with no minds changed about anything, on either side. They have to be about the most unprofitable conversations possible.

Your post does not deserve a serious answer.
You do NOT want to discuss the sealing, and this is what started this whole back and forth that is worth NOTHING.
Me saying something, you saying I didn't say it. A waste of time.

Have a nice day.

P.S. Regarding Ephesians 1:13, very quickly.
You're sealed with the Holy Spirit for as long as your born again and have eternal life.
If you are not born again, at any time during your lifetime, you lose your eternal life and you are not longer sealed. God does not force you to remain sealed. Do you have free will?
I believe you do not think you do if you are forced to be "sealed" forever. Even if you would no longer WISH to be.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

No question.

No one is saved unless they obey the Gospel.

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8

• on those who do not obey the gospel

JLB

Amen! I pray with my knees on the floor and urge all brothers and sisters in Christ, please please please Obey the Lord... keep His commandments , no matter what church you go to and what they teach there .

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Teachers will answer to God...
James 3:1
Teachers will incur a stricter judgement. Why? Because they were required to teach those who do not know, and they were to teach what is taught in the New Testament ... by Jesus and His apostles and those that came after. NOT what the world today would LIKE to hear.
1 Timothy 4:1
2 Timothy 4:3

and as confirmed by Luke:48b
"And from everyone who has been given much, shall much be required."
NASB

Amen ! And I say again Amen

 

[chessman]

I'll be using the KJV:
"Do you (it doesn't matter if it's plural or not) ...

It does matter if it’s plural or not. The words Paul was inspired to write matters a lot and should not be changed.

I'll be using the KJV:
"Do you (it doesn't matter if it's plural or not) not know that YOUR bodies (1st person singular) are the members of Christ?"

“Your bodies” is not 1st person singular. Here, I’ll prove it:

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/6.htm

Look at the parsing of v15.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

In spite of the many verses that clearly state that salvation and eternal life are by faith in Christ, without any mention of works, deeds, obedience?

How about Eph 2;8,9?
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

And, there are no verses that say one is saved by faith plus works.

So, what verses seem to support your view?


Yes, his "Lordship salvation" theology does lead to that conclusion. But it's still simply wrong.

I'll give 2 examples from Scripture that shows his error.

Matt 7:21-23. Jesus is speaking about the final judgment (GWT) and the crowd is appealing to Him on entrance into the kingdom on the basis of their works. They even call Him Lord. And they did their works in His name. Yet, He tells them He never knew (in the intimate sense) them. iow, they never had relationship with Him. Why not? They were trusting in their own works to impress Him.

I would imagine that John MacArthur would have been impressed with them, though.

1 Pet 3:15 - But in your hearts sanctify (set apart) Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

Who was this addressed to? Believers. So, believers are commanded to set apart Christ AS LORD.

Yet JM believes that unless one has already made Christ Lord of their lives, they aren't saved. So he puts the cart before the horse, so to speak.

Only a saved person can make Christ Lord of their lives.


Yet Jesus stated even more clearly that those He gives eternal life shall NEVER PERISH. I have no idea if JM is even aware of John 10:28.


And quite wrong.


There is nothing to interpret in either what you claim JM has said and what Jesus did say.


I don't disagree. But, none of this is even remotely related to getting or staying saved. All believers will be judged at the Bema, per 2 Cor 5:10. The purpose is for reward, or loss of same. There will be no punishment.


I'm unaware of ANYONE who believes in eternal security who believes that believers will be punished in heaven. That is sheer nonsense.


Both of these verses are directly about being rewarded for faithful obedient service to our Lord.


Altar calls are unbiblical. The Bible calls on people to put their faith in Christ, not walk an aisle, raise their hand, etc. Or even repeat some prayer spoken by someone else.


Easy. Believe what the Bible says about it.
John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.


You're mistaken. It's not handed out "to everyone who CLAIMED they believe. Salvation is NOT about what people CLAIM.

Salvation and eternal life are given to those WHO BELIEVE. I care not what people CLAIM. The only issue is what people have believed.


Through out your post and comments I have corrected the errors.


Jesus made 3 very important points about one's salvation.

POINT 1: those who believe in Him POSSESS eternal life. John 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 6:40,47, 11;25-27, 20:31, 1 John 5:13
POINT 2: Jesus is the Giver of eternal life. John 10:28a
POINT 3: Recipients of eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28b

This is the biblical docrine of eternal security. And many reject it because their own efforts/works/deeds are left out. And it seems they want to be able to contribute to their salvation in some way.

Free Grace can I please have your views on my following questions which come repeatedly to my mind :
Can you please tell me why Christ's hand-picked Apostles were obedient to the point of death if they knew obedience played no part in their salvation. They had already believed. Why didn't they run away from the scene of trouble and lived out a life in happy security they were already saved by grace through Faith in Jesus. They didn't do that . Instead they chose to lay down their lives for the gospel and the Lord
My other question is did Christ place a special onus on the Apostles or are we also expected by the Lord to be obedient to the point of death?

 

[GodsGrace]

It does matter if it’s plural or not. The words Paul was inspired to write matters a lot and should not be changed.


“Your bodies” is not 1st person singular. Here, I’ll prove it:

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/6.htm

Look at the parsing of v15.

It does matter if it’s plural or not. The words Paul was inspired to write matters a lot and should not be changed.


“Your bodies” is not 1st person singular. Here, I’ll prove it:

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/6.htm

Look at the parsing of v15.

OK.
I actually went to the link and read verse 15.
You know I don't like to debate back and forth. But I do want to say this:
What shall we do then? Shall we discard the English bibles and learn Greek as spoken in those days so that we too shall understand? May it never be!

Chessman, if we can't trust our bibles, we might as well stop reading them.
Would you believe me if I told you I know a theologian who taught and also knows Koine Greek and every time I ask him about what we discuss, guess what he says?? I won't repeat due to humility.

The N.T. MUST BE TAKEN as a WHOLE THOUGHT. It can't be broken down to verses, especially not to words.

I didn't find any difference in verse 15. I'm amazed at how you understand everything differently being such an intelligent person.

Let's try the YLT?:
Starting with a few verses before and after...:
1 Corinthians 6:9-17

9have ye not known that the unrighteous the reign of God shall not inherit? be not led astray; neither whoremongers, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor sodomites, 10nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, the reign of God shall inherit. 11And certain of you were these! but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were declared righteous, in the name of the Lord Jesus, and in the Spirit of our God.

Our Bodies are Members of Christ

12All things are lawful to me, but all things are not profitable; all things are lawful to me, but I — I will not be under authority by any; 13the meats [are] for the belly, and the belly for the meats. And God both this and these shall make useless; and the body [is] not for whoredom, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body; 14and God both the Lord did raise, and us will raise up through His power. 15Have ye not known that your bodies are members of Christ? having taken, then, the members of the Christ, shall I make [them] members of an harlot? let it be not! 16have ye not known that he who is joined to the harlot is one body? ‘for they shall be — saith He — the two for one flesh.’ 17And he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit;

Romans 12:1-8; 1 Corinthians 3:16-18)



18flee the whoredom; every sin — whatever a man may commit — is without the body, and he who is committing whoredom, against his own body doth sin. 19Have ye not known that your body is a sanctuary of the Holy Spirit in you, which ye have from God? and ye are not your own, 20for ye were bought with a price; glorify, then, God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.

Start at 9 where it's obvious that Paul is talking about individual persons.
The unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. Is this speaking of one individual person. Are we not judged on an individual basis. The unrighteous shall not inherit, as a group, but each judged individually.

verse 11: And CERTAIN OF YOU were these. Certain of you denotes a specific person. An individual person. Are we not washed and sanctified on an individual basis?

verse 12: All is lawful for Paul (eating of sacrificed meats) but not all is profitable. Again, he's speaking about himself and other individual persons.

verse 13: The body is not for whoredom. You believe this means the Body of Christ? If I ascribe to whoredom, is that not personal?

verse 14: God raised Jesus as He will raise us. We are raised as individual persons. The Body of Christ is made up of individual persons. Not one glob of humanity.

verse 15: We are members of the Body of Christ. Romans 12:1 says to submit our bodies as a living sacrifce. The thought is confirmed here. Paul repeated himself many times in order to be understood and his message received. Shall he make THEM, members of a harlot. It's impossible for the Body of Christ, as a whole, to be made member of a harlot, but it IS possible in an individual way.

verse 16: is self-explanatory. The two shall become one flesh. As in marriage. Again Paul is repeating himself. The TWO shall become ONE flesh.

verse 17: And HE WHO is joined to the Lord, is ONE flesh.
Very clear. No explanation necessary. HE.....ONE

verse 18: Whoredom is committed against ones OWN BODY.
And individual body.

verse 19: YOUR body is a sanctuary of the Holy Spirit. 1st person singular.
The Holy Spirit resides in us individually. This is through scripture.
2 Timothy 1:14

verse 20: Self-explanatory. God in your body and in your spirit, WHICH ARE GOD'S. God died for each and everyone of us who believes individually.
John 3:16