Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
-
Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Like this post if you believe in pre-trib rapture of the church!
- Thread starter lisa-in-FL
- Start date
dirtfarmer
Member
hello Randy, dirtfarmer here,
Hebrews 9:27, " And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment." Scripture tells us that Enoch walked with God: and he was not: for God took him.
Hebrews 11:5, " By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death: and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Did God lie? Men are to die once. The meekest man, Moses, that ever lived died. Can I prove that the two witnesses are Elijah and Enoch. without a doubt? NO! but it is my belief that they are the 2 witnesses and will experience death during the tribulation.
Jim Parker
Member
Sure we will, when Jesus returns at the end of the age.
Jim Parker
Member
2Co 5:18-21 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
The ministry of reconciliation has been given to the Church so that those who are not saved can be reconciled to God in Christ through the ministry of the Church, the ambassadors for Christ. The meaning of righteousness in this passage is "the power by which God saves" not a legal status.
Jesus' death and resurrection was not a judgment of believers.
It was the destruction of the power of sin to cause permanent, physical death.
2Ti 1:10 ... the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
Everyone will be judged when Jesus returns.
Rom 14:10c For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
When Jesus described His judgment at Mat 25:31-46, He said he would separate the righteous from the wicked. The righteous and the wicked will be judged by their works.
The righteous did works of mercy and will be judged worthy of the kingdom of God.
The unrighteous did not do works of mercy and will be judged worthy to be sent to eternal fire.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
Rom 2:6-10 (God) “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; - but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Everyone will be judged according to their works.
So says the word of God.
Jim Parker
Member
I'm sorry. I don't know what you are asking.
I believe there will be another temple.
I suppose the same rules from the Law of Moses that applied to the previous temples will also apply to the third one.
Jim Parker
Member
Lets make sure we know what is meant by "The Day of the LORD." It is a day of judgment.
Isa 2:12
For the day of the LORD of hosts Shall come upon everything proud and lofty,
Upon everything lifted up— And it shall be brought low—
Isa 13:6
Wail, for the day of the LORD is at hand! It will come as destruction from the Almighty.
Isa 13:9
Behold, the day of the LORD comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger,
To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it.
Jer 46:10
For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, A day of vengeance,
That He may avenge Himself on His adversaries.
The sword shall devour; It shall be satiated and made drunk with their blood;
Joe 1:15
Alas for the day! For the day of the LORD is at hand; It shall come as destruction from the Almighty.
Joe 2:1
Blow the trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm in My holy mountain!
Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble; For the day of the LORD is coming, For it is at hand:
Joe 2:11
The LORD gives voice before His army, For His camp is very great;
For strong is the One who executes His word. For the day of the LORD is great and very terrible;
Who can endure it?
Amo 5:18
Woe to you who desire the day of the LORD! For what good is the day of the LORD to you?
It will be darkness, and not light.
Amo 5:20
Is not the day of the LORD darkness, and not light? Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?
Oba 1:15
For the day of the LORD upon all the nations is near; As you have done, it shall be done to you;
Your reprisal shall return upon your own head.
1Co 5:4-5
In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
In the resurrection, the body will be raised immortal and incorruptible. It was sin that brought death and corruption to man. Jesus destroyed the power of sin and death so that all of mankind will be raised immortal and incorruptible. But...where you will be for eternity will depend on what you did in this life. Did you obey God so as to inherit eternal life or did you obey the flesh so as to inherit the second death?
In the Day of the Lord, all mankind will receive their rewards according to what was done in the body, according to whose servant each person was: God's or the devil's.
The work of Satan was to bring death and corruption (returning to dust) to the human race that was created in the image and likeness of God. He did that by enticing man to sin and the wages of sin is death. (Separation from God.)
The work of Christ was to destroy death by His own death so that all mankind will be raised from death to immortality. And Christ made it possible for anyone to be reunited with God by faith in and obedience to Him. By that faith and obedience, we become one flesh with God. We become the Bride of Christ in Whom is Life.
The work of man is to choose to serve God with all of our heart, and mind and strength; to be good and faithful servants; to be merciful and loving like God. Mercy, patience, kindness,.. these are aspects of the image and likeness of God.
When Jesus returns, He will separate the good from the evil like a shepherd separated the sheep from the goats. It is easy to tell a sheep from a goat and it will be easy for JEsus to tell who has done His will and who had done the devil's will. That will be the judgment.
Last edited:
You don't think God by His authority can have two exceptions? Ref Hebews 29:7
I don't believe and have not been given any reason to believe from the Lord that Enoch and Elijah will appear alive back on earth in mortal bodies so they can fulfill Hebrews 9. Such a belief is pure guess work not founded on instruction from God.
You are free to believe it but shouldn't be surprised if others don't.
Since I believe the resurrection, those alive on earth are caught up and Jesus dealing with His enemies consisting of the beast, satan, and mankind that day is not a judgment that will be against Christians other than in their favor.
That day
Zech 14
Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.
6On that day there will be neither sunlight nor cold, frosty darkness. 7It will be a unique day—a day known only to the Lord—with no distinction between day and night. When evening comes, there will be light.
8On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it east to the Dead Sea and half of it west to the Mediterranean Sea, in summer and in winter.
9The Lord will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name.
His wrath will be poured upon the wicked
(Antichrist included) when His people are caught up together in the clouds, in the air with Him, at His coming.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:11
JLB
So true.
Which is why Abraham who had the Spirit of Christ in Him, and was walking with the Lord in obedience, in covenant relationship, as an example of how we are to walk with the same Lord today, is certainly a part of the Church.
Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into.
1 Peter 1:10-12
Now therefore, restore the man’s wife; for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you shall live. But if you do not restore her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours.” Genesis 20:7
because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” Genesis 26:5
Can we expect to walk with the Lord in obedience to Him without His Spirit in us?
When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. Genesis 17:1
JLB
Jim Parker
Member
Yes, I agree; the judgment will be in their favor.
Please explain to us how the Day of the Lord, when He returns to gather His people at the resurrection and rapture, then destroy all the wicked, including the antichrist, is “pretrib” teaching?
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:2
JLB
dirtfarmer
Member
hello Randy, dirtfarmer here
God didn't state, " It is appointed unto men once to die, with the exception of Enoch and Elijah". But, He did say "it is appointed unto men once to die"
How do you understand Matthew 17:3, Mark 9:4 and Luke 9:30: " And behold there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias;".
Moses' body was never found but we have scripture that states; " Now after the death of Moses", first phrase of Joshua 1:1
Enoch is said to have walked with God and than " he was not for God took him"
Elijah went up by a whirlwind. 2 Kings 2:11, " And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."
Where are the scriptures that state Enoch and Elijah died as we do that Moses died?
ezra
Member
US ? you have a mouse? i dont need a explanation to give just so your famous words of wrong is posted . feel free to post the word wrong like i said in another post. this subject is just like eternal security osas the argument of wrong and right would never be solved here i leave you with this video
I don’t listen to secular music.
Please explain to us (the people discussing in this thread) how the Day of the Lord, when He returns to gather His people at the resurrection and rapture, then destroy all the wicked, including the antichrist, is “pretrib” teaching?
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:2
JLB
Some people just don’t love the truth.
Three major things occur at the coming of the Lord: The Gathering of His people: Resurrection, Rapture, destruction of the false messiah.
Here is the order of those three things:
- The resurrection of the dead in Christ: the dead in Christ will rise first...
- The Rapture: Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...
- The destruction of the false messiah [antichrist]: destroy with the brightness of His coming.
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8
JLB
ezra
Member
you mean the truth as you see it? all because i dont believe in Christians going through the full 7 years tribulation . suddenly you hold all truth? i dont think so ,
- The resurrection of the dead in Christ: the dead in Christ will rise first...
- The Rapture: Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...
- The destruction of the false messiah [antichrist]: destroy with the brightness of His coming.
I didn't state they were dead as God is the God of the living. I stated the two witnesses were NOT named in Rev 11 and highly doubt that they will be Elijah and Enoch. That's pure guess work not truth. We are born and die. That is true but that doesn't mean God by His own authority can't choose to take up Enoch and Elijah to heaven before death.
I can't with any degree of confidence (as in truth) state those two witnesses will be Enoch and Elijah. The witnesses were not named by God in Rev 11. Rather I think they will be two people born and raised in that time period.
God was pleased with Enoch and Elijah so you think He needs to send them back to die because we are appointed to die? So they suddenly appear alive again on earth in mortal flesh. I Don't!