What Gifts from God are revocable?

[daninthelionsden]

When I was a young man, I used to dream frequently of tornadoes. Very soon after I would have these dreams, I would see weather reports of tornadoes. I found this prophetic gift to be both amusing and amazing. About a year went by and I was almost bragging about how I would get these prophetic dreams. Then, as suddenly as I got those dreams, they stopped. I was a little bewildered and disappointed that the dreams stopped. Years later I was thinking on those dreams while watching a weather report on tornadic activity. I was wondering why I ever got dreams like that and why they stopped. I asked the Lord why I would be given such a peculiar little gift as that. He immediately impressed upon my heart this....."I gave you the dreams so you would pray for those about to be affected....I took the dreams away because you refused." So yeah. I believe the Lord gives gifts to the obedient and removes them from the disobedient. The reasons for disobedience may include spiritual blindness/immaturity/sin/pride/shallowness/thoughtlessness.....whatever keeps one out of God's will.

 

[atpollard]

Please support your notion that the Garden was a gift to Adam.

Genesis 2:8-9 NASB
8 The LORD God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed. 9 Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

• God planted the garden with everything that Adam would need and nothing that Adam would not need.
• God placed Adam in the Garden of Eden.

Genesis 2:15-16 NASB
15 Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. 16 The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

• Adam was placed in the garden to 'cultivate and keep' it. Just as surely as God gave a land to Abraham, he gave a land to Adam.
• Note that the Tree of Life is in the garden and Adam is not forbidden to eat from it. There is only one tree that is forbidden to him. Leaving the garden would mean leaving the Tree of Life as well.

Genesis 2:19 NASB
19 Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the [fn]sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.

• Naming a thing indicates power and authority over that thing. If you remember the book of Daniel, the Hebrews were given new names to signify that they were now the property of the 'god' of the people who captured them.
• It is God who brings the animals to Adam to name. God gives the responsibility to cultivate the land and the authority to rule over the animals to Adam.

Is that good enough?

 

[Douglas Summers]

All based on the condition of obedience.

Only those who obey the Gospel are saved.

JLB, That is probably why you think a man can lose his salvation. You think that God judges a man by every little thing he does, like walking on a tight rope. The obedience of the Gospel is to accept God's grace in Jesus Christ, and those that are regenerated (wheat not tares) A wheat seed does not turn into a tare! And those that belong to Christ are His eternally. Call upon the name of the Lord and you will be saved (Rom. 10:12-14), And I will never loose them (John 6:38-39). A man who is born again would never reject Christ, For only those who love Christ can only say it by the Spirit of Christ. (1 Cor. 12:2-4) Of course, anyone can say it, but the point here is, those who say it and mean it can only make Him Lord of their lives. You seem to judge your doctrine of loosing your salvation on the spirit of the natural man, but a born again believer is sealed, and while he may backslide, He is chastised (as a son). A man who walks before God on his own merit has never known God personally . If you have ever felt the love of God, then you have seen the futility of the natural man . Most of the warnings in the NT Scriptures are to the "self righteous" and "deceived". every action and decision in my life is directed by the Holy Spirit. We see death of the body as a welcome event. God's grace is the only thing that saves a man.

 

[JLB]

JLB, That is probably why you think a man can lose his salvation. You think that God judges a man by every little thing he does, like walking on a tight rope.

Absolutely not. I am living proof of God's goodness and mercy, to mankind.

If I were to go by just my life experience, and not what is in the scriptures, I would definitely be in the OSAS camp.

But, since the scriptures are crystal clear about this subject, I am not.

I can truly say, that the Lord is my Savior, and continues to be my Savior everyday.


Without His grace and mercy upon my life every moment of everyday, I am lost.

The obedience of the Gospel is to accept God's grace in Jesus Christ, and those that are regenerated (wheat not tares) A wheat seed does not turn into a tare!

Nor will a tare ever be wheat.


36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”

37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! Matthew 13:37-43

• the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom
• the tares are the sons of the wicked one.

Only the good seeds, the "wheat" can ever be grow to produce "fruit".

The tares are gathered by the angels and burned in the fire.


11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.12 But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Matthew 8:11-12

• the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes Glory to God.

Another great promise for those who believe.

The promise is that those who believe possess eternal life. That would obviously mean they received it WHEN they believe.

Unless someone has found a verse that tells us specifically that eternal life is given at some point AFTER initial faith in Christ.

Are there any such verses? No.

Unfortunately for your doctrine this doesn't deal with those who do not believe any longer.

Please provide Scripture that supports your opinion. Forum rules are clear.

What verse says that any of God's promises are revoked, removed, or cease, when a believer no longer believes?

I just have a hard time accepting one's opinions when they are not grounded in the Word of God. If there is such a verse, please share.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said:
"Please explain why everyone will go to hell, according to Mark 9:49 - Everyone will be salted with fire."

Go ahead and post the scripture and its context so we can all examine it.

No need. Just hover your cursor over the citation and the entire verse shows up.

But, since it's obvious that wasn't done, if that had been done, you'd have realized that the words that followed the citation weren't my opinion, but EXACTLY the verse itself.

So, now that we've cleared that up, please proceed to explain why the Bible teaches that everyone will experience the lake of fire, since you've shown a predilection that every mention of "fire" or "burned" refers to hell/lake of fire.

If you're unable to defend the idea that everyone will experience hell, then please just admit that "fire" is used for more than just hell/lake of fire.

 

[FreeGrace]

All based on the condition of obedience.

Only those who obey the Gospel are saved.

Please define "obey the Gospel" specifically.

 

[FreeGrace]

The tares are gathered by the angels and burned in the fire.

Please explain the biblical teaching that is found in Mark 9:49, which says: " Everyone will be salted with fire." This isn't my opinion, but a direct QUOTE of the actual verse.

 

[JLB]

Please explain the biblical teaching that is found in Mark 9:49, which says: " Everyone will be salted with fire." This isn't my opinion, but a direct QUOTE of the actual verse.

Once you write out the scripture and make your point, I will be glad to discuss what that scripture says.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Please define "obey the Gospel" specifically.

Confess Jesus as Lord.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

• with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This is the action of obedience to the Gospel.

There is only one command in the Gospel to be obeyed.

From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Matthew 4:17

• Repent means to turn to God.

If you are called to turn to God, then by default you are called to turn from Satan as your lord.

The way that your express this obedience of faith, concerning the Gospel is to confess Jesus as Lord.

This is what grants the believer/obeyer of the Gospel, the forgiveness of sins.

This is plainly what the Lord Jesus Christ taught to and commissioned Paul to do.



15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:15-18



Repent is about being transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of God.

• He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, Colossians 1:13

It's about changing who you serve, as your Lord.

• The Gospel of the kingdom is about changing the kingdom your are in, by changing the lord you serve.

JLB

 

[JLB]

admit that "fire" is used for more than just hell/lake of fire.

It depends on the context.

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked this:
"Please support your notion that the Garden was a gift to Adam."

Genesis 2:8-9 NASB
8 The LORD God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed. 9 Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

• God planted the garden with everything that Adam would need and nothing that Adam would not need.
• God placed Adam in the Garden of Eden.

Genesis 2:15-16 NASB
15 Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. 16 The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

• Adam was placed in the garden to 'cultivate and keep' it. Just as surely as God gave a land to Abraham, he gave a land to Adam.
• Note that the Tree of Life is in the garden and Adam is not forbidden to eat from it. There is only one tree that is forbidden to him. Leaving the garden would mean leaving the Tree of Life as well.

Genesis 2:19 NASB
19 Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the [fn]sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.

• Naming a thing indicates power and authority over that thing. If you remember the book of Daniel, the Hebrews were given new names to signify that they were now the property of the 'god' of the people who captured them.
• It is God who brings the animals to Adam to name. God gives the responsibility to cultivate the land and the authority to rule over the animals to Adam.

Is that good enough?

No, not really. I read every verse quoted and didn't find any reference to "gift". What I did find was that God gave Adam the garden, etc.

So, it seems you've concluded that whatever is given is properly a gift then. Is that correct?

Well, consider when someone gives another a hard time. Or gives someone their cold or flu. Or worse.

Jut because the Bible speaks of God giving things, doesn't demand that those things are gifts.

Let's just stick with what Scripture describes as a gift, such as
1. spiritual gifts - Rom 1:11
2. justificaiton - Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17
3. eternal life - Rom 6:23
4. indwelling Holy Spirit - Acts 11:15-17

And, let's not forget that the gifts of God are irrevocable - Rom 11:29

 

[FreeGrace]

Once you write out the scripture and make your point, I will be glad to discuss what that scripture says.
JLB

If you're not going to even read my post, there is no point in further discussion. My point was to get your explanation of the meaning of Mark 9:49, which I directly QUOTED which says "everyone will be salted with fire", given your penchant for the default meaning of hell or lake of fire whenever the word "fire" is used in Scripture.

But I see a hesitancy to actually engage such a conversation.

Thanks for being transparent.

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked:
"Please define "obey the Gospel" specifically."

Confess Jesus as Lord.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

• with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This is the action of obedience to the Gospel.

There is only one command in the Gospel to be obeyed.

OK, thanks. So it seems there is no way a mute person can be saved then. Tough for them.

I couldn't help but notice that though 2 verses were quoted, your emphasis was only HALF of v.10. Why was "with the heart believes unto righteousness" left out?

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"admit that "fire" is used for more than just hell/lake of fire."

It depends on the context.

Really? OK, that is reasonable.

So, what's the context for John 15 and throwing branches in a fire to be burned? Service is the context.

So it would seem, if one wanted to be consistent, that those who don't produce fruit will go to hell. Which has nothing at all to do with ceasing to believe. So it seems there is no consistency in your views on 'fire'.

What makes way more sense is to understand John 15 as teaching that those who don't produce fruit will be disciplined by the Lord. Which doesn't include being sent to hell.

 

[Edward]

Oh come on Brother. Look at the OT...all the way through God dealt with them...if this, then that. Meaning if they obeyed then they would be blessed etc., and if they didn't then they'd get stomped on. There's so many examples that it's...absurd to think that it's everything irrevocable.

I could post a couple dozen examples if you like...

 

[JLB]

The promise is that those who believe possess eternal life. That would obviously mean they received it WHEN they believe.

Unless someone has found a verse that tells us specifically that eternal life is given at some point AFTER initial faith in Christ.

Are there any such verses? No.

Not true.


22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:22-23

• you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

The end result of a life of bearing fruit unto holiness is receiving eternal life; Everlasting life in which we will not doe anymore.


The end is when Jesus returns to gather His people, at the resurrection and rapture, on the last Day.


This theme is taught throughout the New Testament.


6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9

• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28


28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

• all who are in the graves will hear His voice
• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:35-36

• nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

When He returns we will stand before Him to be judged according to our deeds.

• According to our deeds.

The outcome of being judged according to our deeds will either be eternal life or eternal death.

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8



JLB

 

[JLB]

I said this:
"admit that "fire" is used for more than just hell/lake of fire."

Really? OK, that is reasonable.

So, what's the context for John 15 and throwing branches in a fire to be burned? Service is the context.

So it would seem, if one wanted to be consistent, that those who don't produce fruit will go to hell. Which has nothing at all to do with ceasing to believe. So it seems there is no consistency in your views on 'fire'.

What makes way more sense is to understand John 15 as teaching that those who don't produce fruit will be disciplined by the Lord. Which doesn't include being sent to hell.

You will need to post the scripture and refer to the actual words of the scripture.

I will only discuss what the actual words of the scripture say, and will not talk in circles, about this subject.

When He returns we will stand before Him to be judged according to our deeds.

• According to our deeds.

The outcome of being judged according to our deeds will either be eternal life or eternal death.

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8



JLB

 

[JLB]

I asked:
"Please define "obey the Gospel" specifically."

OK, thanks. So it seems there is no way a mute person can be saved then. Tough for them.

I couldn't help but notice that though 2 verses were quoted, your emphasis was only HALF of v.10. Why was "with the heart believes unto righteousness" left out?

You will need to post the scripture and refer to the actual words of the scripture.

I will only discuss what the actual words of the scripture say, and will not talk in circles, about this subject.

When He returns we will stand before Him to be judged according to our deeds.

• According to our deeds.

The outcome of being judged according to our deeds will either be eternal life or eternal death.

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8


JLB

 

[WIP]

I think this thread has been hijacked far enough. The topic is not OSAS vs OSNAS. Going forward let's address the question presented by the OP which asked, "What gifts from God are revocable?"