Jethro Bodine
Member
I didn't get what you were driving at.
Do you mean the devil has hidden the best exposition and understanding of the LAW?
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LAW
- Thread starter Eugene
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Do you mean the devil has hidden the best exposition and understanding of the LAW?
Jethro Bodine
Member
I know this is what we are told in church, but I personally had to stop believing this because of what Jesus said:
17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill." (Matthew 5:17 NASB)
What he did was fulfill the law, not abolish it. In regard to the first covenant that means he is the required fulfillment, not the abolishing of the first covenant worship stipulations for Sabbath Rest, Festival observance, etc. They get fulfilled, not abolished, in the new and better way of Christ and faith in him. And because they are so effectively and perfectly fulfilled, not abolished, through faith in him the old way of doing that can be set aside as not needed anymore. Not abolished, but set aside as not required anymore.
That is, if you are trying to be justified by keeping the law. That is when it is absolutely necessary that you keep all of it to the letter.
To make what James was saying mean that we have to literally keep all of the law is actually counter to what you are saying. I doubt very much James was somehow saying we have to literally keep all the law or be found to be a law breaker.
He's settling the debate about first covenant worship requirements. He's pointing out to those who take some kind of satisfaction before God in having kept the Ten Commandments (so many Jews and gentiles alike do this) that the law also includes 'love your neighbor as yourself', and 'do not show favoritism', and 'do not turn away from someone in need'. A relationship with God does not mean only upholding the Ten Commandments, but rather all of the stipulations of the law as is fitting in this New Covenant.
J
jocor
Guest
I don't think they were abolished and I don't think the law has become obsolete. I was trying to get Malachi to harmonize his view that we should not go back to Moses, but we should uphold the Ten given through Moses.
Thus saith JLB: You may rest any day of the week.
Thus saith Yahweh: You are to rest the 7th day of the week.
Thus saith JLB: The Sabbath is obsolete and has vanished away.
Thus saith Yeshua: Not one jot or tittle shall pass from the Law until all be fulfilled.
No, I don't stone people for breaking the Sabbath.
Heb 10:30 For we know Him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith [Yahweh]. And again, [Yahweh] shall judge his people.
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Messiah; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Rom 13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
Do you cause people to break the Sabbath and teach them it is OK to break the Sabbath?2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Messiah; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Rom 13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Well, either he means no one on the face of the earth in all of history has been or will be born again (doubtful), or that the person who does not become a new creation in Christ is not born again. Some claim a corresponding change of character is not required to accompany a born again experience and that you are still born again even if you don't act like it, nor trust the blood of Christ to cleanse away sin failure. This is completely contrary to what John is saying.
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Jethro Bodine
Member
The fulfillment that Jesus came to do has been completed. This is one of the conditions that had to be met before anything can 'disappear' from the law (the other condition being the end of heaven and earth). We know that this condition has been met by the simple fact that much more than the jots and tittles of sacrifice for sin have 'disappeared' from the law. Not abolished, but simply obsolete and unneeded, now that Christ does what they did but in a much better and everlasting way.
The point being, we don't need to accomplish things what the old way sought to accomplish that are already perfectly and forever accomplished through the new way of Christ and faith in him. We are brought near in Christ. There is no reason to draw near through an inferior and obsolete way. That doesn't mean you can't worship that way. It means you don't have to draw near to God that way anymore, or else die.
J
jocor
Guest
If you are implying that believers cannot sin, then please harmonize that with John's other writings below:
1Jn_1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Yeshua Messiah His Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn_1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn_1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn_1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1Jn_2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father,Yeshua Messiah the righteous:
1Jn_5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1Jn_1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn_1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn_1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1Jn_2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father,Yeshua Messiah the righteous:
1Jn_5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
These were all directed toward believers.
J
jocor
Guest
If Messiah fulfilled the entire law, then why hasn't the entire law become obsolete and unneeded? Paul says the law has been established (made to stand) through faith. Messiah clearly fulfilled sacrifices. He has not fulfilled the Sabbath. You may argue that he fulfilled the Sabbath rest, but I disagree. And he certainly did not fulfill, "Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of Yahweh thy Elohim: in it thou shalt not do any work."
What part of the Law of Moses are you required to keep?
Here is what I said -
The Sabbath according to the law of Moses, is obsolete and has vanished away.
Man resting a day every week, has not.
Man resting a day each week, shows he believes in the rest to come.
Here is what you said that I said -
Thus saith JLB: You may rest any day of the week.
Now please answer my question -
Do you stone people to death for breaking the Sabbath?
Thus saith YHWH -
You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. Exodus 31:14
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
Because I don't know how Christ could fulfill 'do not murder' in such a way that I no longer have to 'do' that. Paul makes reference to this in Romans 13...
"8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another..." (Romans 13:8 NIV)
But even the moral aspects of the law that remain to be fulfilled literally, summed up in 'love your neighbor as yourself', are still fulfilled, not abolished, in the new way of faith in Christ--that faith finding it's expected and obligatory expression in love for others, and thus, satisfying the law.
Don't get me wrong. If you think you need to keep the literal Sabbath that is exactly what I want you to do and you have my brotherly support. But, likewise, I hope you can accept my conviction that the requirement to draw near to God in Sabbath Rest is now fulfilled by my faith in Christ expressed in the putting to death of my evil deeds, seen by others as my concern not to hurt them.
9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." (Romans 13:9 NIV)
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31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. Romans 3:31
Establish here carries the meaning of:
- to uphold or sustain the authority or force of anything
- to set or place in a balance
- to weigh: money to one (because in very early times before the introduction of coinage, the metals used to be weighed)
- to set or place in a balance
Paul says by faith we agree with or balance the authority of the law.
Obedience to do all the law and continue to do all the law is what was required of the children of Israel.
By faith, means obedience to do what God says.
Both of these agree, in that obedience is the common ground or balance.
29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. Romans 3:29-31
Paul is certainly not requiring us to keep the law of Moses here by his statement, for he clearly prefaced verse 31 with God will justify the UNCIRCUMCISED through faith.
The law of Moses requires "physical" circumcision of the flesh, the New Covenant does not.
Paul clearly states that the righteousness APART FROM THE LAW...
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, Romans 3:20,21
The context of Romans 3 is addressing Jews -
1 What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? 2 Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God.
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
When Paul states what he does in verse 31, WE is a reference to Jews.
Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? Romans 4:1
The law of Moses has never had anything to do with uncircumcised Gentiles who do not live in the land of Israel.
JLB
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J
jocor
Guest
If we love others, we satisfy the law. The moment we break the law, for example by stealing from our neighbor, we no longer satisfy the law and show that we do not love our neighbor. The law is always there to point out our sin. When we see our sin, pointed out by the law, we can repent and ask for forgiveness. The law drives us to Messiah for cleansing from sin. If, for example, we say the law of stealing is obsolete or abolished, then when we steal, there is no law to show us we sinned and thus, there will be no repentance or forgiveness. Christians have abolished the Sabbath command and made it obsolete. So now, the fourth commandment no longer has the ability to point out there sins of breaking the Sabbath. It will cannot drive them to Messiah for forgiveness and cleansing.
Do you put to death those who break the Sabbath?
If you do not, then you yourself have done away with the Sabbath according to the law of Moses.
You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. Exodus 31:14
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
The problem with your reasoning is it is no longer a sin to not keep a literal Sabbath, just as it is no longer a sin to not make the required Mosaic sacrifices. We understand from the Bible itself that those were shadows and illustrations, not the realities themselves (Hebrews 10:1 NIV). So, the law of Sabbath itself does not reveal the sin of not keeping a literal Sabbath. Instead, it points to the underlying, eternal requirement to enter into rest--Jesus Christ, and rest from sin--just as the laws of sacrifice point to the underlying, eternal requirements for sacrifice for sin--Jesus Christ.
In regard to the Sabbath, even in the OT we see the prophet alluding to this deeper, more meaningful requirement for Sabbath Rest (Isaiah 58:13 NIV). And now that I see and understand the spiritual reality and truth that the illustration of literal Sabbath rest was pointing to I can even see it in the law itself. It's quite edifying.
J
jocor
Guest
Heb 10:1 refers to the shadows of sacrifices. It does not include the Sabbath.
Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of YHWH, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
Isa 58:14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in YHWH; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of YHWH hath spoken it.
This verse is referring to the literal 7th day Sabbath. The blessings of verse 14 will be had by those that do not trample on the 7th day, or do their own pleasure on that day. They call the 7th day a delight. They do not say the 7th day is obsolete. They honor Yahweh by keeping the 7th day holy. They dishonor Him by teaching people it no longer needs to be kept holy.