LAW

[jocor]

Do you think the Sabbath started with the law of Moses?

Or do not murder, or any of the 10?

JLB

No. Neither did the dietary laws or circumcision.

 

[jocor]

We know he's talking about the ceremonial law from this passage:

"...no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day- 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ." (Colossians 2:16-17 NASB)

I know this opens up a whole 'nuther passage to be discussed, but I'm ready.

First, can you please define the man-made term "ceremonial law"?

Second, just because the word "shadow" is used in both verses doesn't mean they are both talking about the "ceremonial law". Hebrews 10 is only talking about animal sacrifices. Col 2 is talking about food and holy days that people outside the Body of Messiah were attempting to regulate. The NASB additions of "mere" and "substance belongs to" change the meaning of verse 17.

have no doubt that the prophet meant the literal Sabbath. The literal Sabbath is binding over the people of God at the time he is saying this.

The interesting point in the passage is the reference to "nor speaking thine own words" in verse 13. Now I want to be as honest and open as possible, so if one of the Mosaic requirements for the Sabbath is that you not speak your own words, please show it to me, chapter and verse in the law. If it's not there then I suggest we see that the prophet is alluding to the true meaning of Sabbath keeping--not sinning in regard to how we treat other people. The 'keeping' of the law that Paul talks about in Romans 13:8-10 NASB. I'll abandon the argument from this passage in Isaiah if you can show me I'm mistaken and that God really did stipulate somewhere in the law that part of literal Sabbath keeping is not speaking idle words.

I agree Isaiah was getting to the true meaning of Sabbath keeping. Yahweh was teaching us through him, the deeper meaning on how to keep it holy. However, that does not abolish the superficial requirement to keep it holy by not working specifically on the 7th day. In Rom.13:8-10, Paul was teaching us the Ten Commandments are founded upon and fulfilled by love, including the Sabbath. When we cause our neighbor to work on the 7th day, we show we do not love him in the way Yahweh requires. When we do our own pleasure on Yahweh's holy day, we show Him that we do not love Him in the way He requires.

 

[JLB]

No. Neither did the dietary laws or circumcision.

Dietary laws?

I see a distinction between clean and unclean animals.


Abraham was given physical circumcision as a sign of the covenant God made between him and his natural descendants.

In your opinion, is physical circumcision a requirement of the New Covenant ?




JLB

 

[jocor]

Dietary laws?

I see a distinction between clean and unclean animals.

Why did Noah bring so many more clean animals than unclean animals? Not only for sacrifice, but for food since plant life was destroyed until it grew again. Had Noah and company eaten or sacrificed one unclean animal, that kind would have become extinct. Not only were unclean animals unacceptable for sacrifice, especially in His earthly tabernacle, but they are unacceptable in His spiritual tabernacle, our bodies.

Abraham was given physical circumcision as a sign of the covenant God made between him and his natural descendants.

In your opinion, is physical circumcision a requirement of the New Covenant ?

JLB

It was still a pre-Mosaic command. It is not a requirement for adult converts since they can no longer obey the command to be circumcised on the 8th day. However, they still need to circumcise their son's on the 8th day. The reason Paul joined certain Jews in their vow was to prove the false accusations that he was teaching Jews to forsake the law of Moses and to stop circumcising their children (Acts 21:21).

 

[JLB]

jocor said -

Why did Noah bring so many more clean animals than unclean animals? Not only for sacrifice, but for food since plant life was destroyed until it grew again. Had Noah and company eaten or sacrificed one unclean animal, that kind would have become extinct. Not only were unclean animals unacceptable for sacrifice, especially in His earthly tabernacle, but they are unacceptable in His spiritual tabernacle, our bodies.

Could you share some scriptures about Noah sacrificing animals.

jocor said -

It was still a pre-Mosaic command. It is not a requirement for adult converts since they can no longer obey the command to be circumcised on the 8th day. However, they still need to circumcise their son's on the 8th day. The reason Paul joined certain Jews in their vow was to prove the false accusations that he was teaching Jews to forsake the law of Moses and to stop circumcising their children (Acts 21:21).

Abraham was not 8 days old when he was circumcised.


Moses was not 8 days old when he was circumcised.


Can you show me a scripture that states physical circumcision is a New Testament Commandment?

Here is what Paul said - every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.


2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. Galatians 5:2-3


... if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.



... every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.


24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"--to whom we gave no such commandment-- 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Acts 15:24-26


to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,...


Here is Paul's message from the Jerusalem Council -

... every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.

... if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.



Without being physically circumcised in the flesh, trying to keep the law of Moses is meaningless and useless.


No circumcision - No law!


JLB

 

[jocor]

Could you share some scriptures about Noah sacrificing animals.

Gen 8:20 And Noah builded an altar unto Yahweh; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

Abraham was not 8 days old when he was circumcised.

Moses was not 8 days old when he was circumcised.

Yahweh specifically commanded Abraham to be circumcised as an adult. He did not command any NC adults to be circumcised, only eight day old son's.
What makes you think Moses was not circumcised on the 8th day? His parents did not give him up until he was three months old.

Can you show me a scripture that states physical circumcision is a New Testament Commandment?

Here is what Paul said - every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.


2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. Galatians 5:2-3


... if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.



... every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.

You left out the most important verse from Galatians 5:

Gal 5:4 Messiah is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.​

Paul was not teaching against circumcision in general, but against circumcision for the wrong reason, that is, to be justified by it. We are justified by faith, not by circumcision.

Without being physically circumcised in the flesh, trying to keep the law of Moses is meaningless and useless.

No circumcision - No law!


JLB

The circumcision of the heart, the indwelling Holy Spirit and the Torah written on one's heart all work together to enable the believer to obey Yahweh's commandments given through Moses.

 

[JLB]

jocor said -

Gen 8:20 And Noah builded an altar unto Yahweh; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

Burnt offerings, not sacrifice for sins.

Abraham and Job offered burnt offerings to God, as was the custom of that time.

This was done before the law was added.

Do you believe that the New Testament teaches we should offer animals as burnt offerings to God today?

jocor said -

The circumcision of the heart, the indwelling Holy Spirit and the Torah written on one's heart all work together to enable the believer to obey Yahweh's commandments given through Moses.

The law of Moses required physical circumcision of the flesh of the foreskin.

Without being circumcised, trying to keep the law of Moses is useless.

No Circumcision - No law.

Is physical circumcision required in the New Testament.

Clearly if the physical circumcision is not required, then the law of Moses is not required.


Just as a person who is not born again, and try's to do the things of the Christian life, so it would be with a person who is uncircumcised trying to keep the law of Moses.

jocor said -

You left out the most important verse from Galatians 5:

Gal 5:4 Messiah is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Paul was not teaching against circumcision in general, but against circumcision for the wrong reason, that is, to be justified by it. We are justified by faith, not by circumcision.

If a person gets circumcised because they are taught it is a requirement of the New Testament, then they are a debtor to keep all the law.

Physical circumcision was required by God.

The law of Moses was required by God for the children of Israel.


Do you believe that physical Circumcision is a requirement of the New Testament?

Yes or No?


JLB

 

[jocor]

Burnt offerings, not sacrifice for sins.

Abraham and Job offered burnt offerings to God, as was the custom of that time.

This was done before the law was added.

Do you believe that the New Testament teaches we should offer animals as burnt offerings to God today?

I did not say Noah made sacrifices for sin. Also, burnt offerings are sacrifices (Ex.20:24; Num.28:6,13,19; etc).

No, I don't believe we should offer animals as burnt offerings. However, for you to be consistent, you should believe that. If your view is correct that the Ten Cs are part of the NC because they were pre-Mosaic, then so should sacrifices and circumcision.

If a person gets circumcised because they are taught it is a requirement of the New Testament, then they are a debtor to keep all the law.

They are a debtor to keep the whole law ONLY if they are seeking to be justified by the law.

Do you believe that physical Circumcision is a requirement of the New Testament?

Yes or No?

JLB

It is a requirement to circumcise our children. It is not a requirement to circumcise an adult convert.

 

[JLB]

jocor said -

I did not say Noah made sacrifices for sin. Also, burnt offerings are sacrifices (Ex.20:24; Num.28:6,13,19; etc).

No, I don't believe we should offer animals as burnt offerings. However, for you to be consistent, you should believe that. If your view is correct that the Ten Cs are part of the NC because they were pre-Mosaic, then so should sacrifices and circumcision.

Did God Command that sacrifices of animals be made to Him, before the law was added?

jocor said -

They are a debtor to keep the whole law ONLY if they are seeking to be justified by the law.

If a person gets circumcised because they are taught it is a requirement of the New Testament, then they are a debtor to keep all the law.

The New Testament does not require for a person to be physically circumcised.

If a person is taught they must be circumcised because the law is applicable to them under the New Testament, then the are obligated to keep the whole law.


You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.Galatians 5:4


Paul says by [the] law... anyone who tries to partake in any part of the law, not just circumcision, but the law.


If you are compelling others to partake of various parts of the law, as a requirement of the New Testament, then you are compelling them to be entangled in a yoke of bondage.


1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. Galatians 5:1-2

jocor said -

It is a requirement to circumcise our children. It is not a requirement to circumcise an adult convert.

Whose requirement is it for us to circumcise our children.

Please share the New Testament scripture that requires us to circumcise our children.




JLB

 

[jocor]

Did God Command that sacrifices of animals be made to Him, before the law was added?

How did Abel know about offerings and why did he offer a sacrificed lamb? I believe he learned that from Yahweh.

If a person gets circumcised because they are taught it is a requirement of the New Testament, then they are a debtor to keep all the law.

The New Testament does not require for a person to be physically circumcised.

If a person is taught they must be circumcised because the law is applicable to them under the New Testament, then the are obligated to keep the whole law.


You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.Galatians 5:4

Exactly. It is seeking to be justified by the law that is the problem, not obeying the law out of love and obedience to our Heavenly Father.

Paul says by [the] law... anyone who tries to partake in any part of the law, not just circumcision, but the law.

Paul NEVER said we should not "partake" of the law. He said we should not seek to be justified by it.

If you are compelling others to partake of various parts of the law, as a requirement of the New Testament, then you are compelling them to be entangled in a yoke of bondage.

I will compel everyone to obey the Ten Commandments. (Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah) Yeshua taught us to keep and teach even the least of the commandments. (Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah) The yoke of bondage is seeking to be justified by the law rather than by faith. The yoke of bondage is NOT obeying the law/commandments.

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous.​

Whose requirement is it for us to circumcise our children.

Please share the New Testament scripture that requires us to circumcise our children.

JLB

My Bible has both an OT and a NT. They both teach me how to live according to the will of Yahweh. Yahweh commanded Israelite sons to be circumcised on the 8th day and Paul joined in a vow to prove he was NOT teaching against that particular command (Acts 21:21). We are Israelites through Yeshua. Therefore, we obey by circumcising our sons, not so they can be saved or made righteous, but out of obedience to and love for our Father.

 

[jocor]

JLB,

If I am understanding you correctly, you believe the law of Moses is obsolete and NC believers do not need to obey it. However, you believe the Ten Commandments are part of the NC because they are pre-Mosaic. If that is correct, please explain how you view the following commandment:

Deu.25:4 Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.
1Co.9:9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?​

Deu.25:4 is not pre-Mosaic, yet Paul implies that Yahweh still cares for oxen.

Do you believe it is OK for a New Covenant farmer to muzzle his ox while it treads out the corn?

 

[JLB]

How did Abel know about offerings and why did he offer a sacrificed lamb? I believe he learned that from Yahweh.



Exactly. It is seeking to be justified by the law that is the problem, not obeying the law out of love and obedience to our Heavenly Father.



Paul NEVER said we should not "partake" of the law. He said we should not seek to be justified by it.



I will compel everyone to obey the Ten Commandments. (Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah) Yeshua taught us to keep and teach even the least of the commandments. (Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah) The yoke of bondage is seeking to be justified by the law rather than by faith. The yoke of bondage is NOT obeying the law/commandments.

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous.​

My Bible has both an OT and a NT. They both teach me how to live according to the will of Yahweh. Yahweh commanded Israelite sons to be circumcised on the 8th day and Paul joined in a vow to prove he was NOT teaching against that particular command (Acts 21:21). We are Israelites through Yeshua. Therefore, we obey by circumcising our sons, not so they can be saved or made righteous, but out of obedience to and love for our Father.

Please share the New Testament scripture that teaches us to circumcise our children.

 

[JLB]

JLB,

If I am understanding you correctly, you believe the law of Moses is obsolete and NC believers do not need to obey it. However, you believe the Ten Commandments are part of the NC because they are pre-Mosaic. If that is correct, please explain how you view the following commandment:

Deu.25:4 Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.
1Co.9:9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?​

Deu.25:4 is not pre-Mosaic, yet Paul implies that Yahweh still cares for oxen.

Do you believe it is OK for a New Covenant farmer to muzzle his ox while it treads out the corn?

I believe that would be up to each individual farmer.

Since Paul states - is it Oxen that God is concerned about?

That means you missed the point.

 

[jocor]

Please share the New Testament scripture that teaches us to circumcise our children.

I just did. Now you share the NT scripture that specifically commands us not to circumcise our sons.

 

[jocor]

I believe that would be up to each individual farmer.

You are correct. Each individual farmer has a free will and can choose to muzzle his ox if he wants. Let me rephrase the question. Is it against the will of Yahweh for a NC farmer to muzzle his ox as it treads the corn?

Since Paul states - is it Oxen that God is concerned about?

That means you missed the point.

The deeper meaning is that Yahweh is more concerned about man than oxen. That does not mean He is not concerned about oxen. He admonished us through Solomon to care for our animals.

Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
​

It is cruel and evil treatment to oxen to muzzle them as they work for us.

 

[WIP]

I don't mean to interrupt with my naive question but can someone explain what NC means? For some reason I can't seem to figure it out. It's probably right in front of me too.

 

[Gregg]

The deeper meaning is that Yahweh is more concerned about man than oxen. That does not mean He is not concerned about oxen. He admonished us through Solomon to care for our animals.

Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
​

It is cruel and evil treatment to oxen to muzzle them as they work for us.

Rather, the deeper meaning is that the LORD is concerned that His ministers receive their wages for the office to which they have been appointed.

 

[Gregg]

I don't mean to interrupt with my naive question but can someone explain what NC means? For some reason I can't seem to figure it out. It's probably right in front of me too.

New Covenant?

 

[Gregg]

"But we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those within the Law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world be under judgment to God." (Rom 3:19 LITV).

Are NT Christians (with)in the Law? I think not. We have something better that speaks to us, the One who fulfilled the expectation of the Law - that is the the LORD Jesus Christ who is our propitiation and our righteousness.

So what purpose is the Law now? Having accomplished it role as a tutor for Israel, it stands alongside the Prophets cheering on those who have matured to faith in Christ.

 

[jocor]

I don't mean to interrupt with my naive question but can someone explain what NC means? For some reason I can't seem to figure it out. It's probably right in front of me too.

NC = New Covenant

Actually, in post #631 I first wrote, "Do you believe it is OK for a NC farmer to muzzle his ox while it treads out the corn?", but then I realized that NC might be misunderstood for North Carolina. I changed it to read "New Covenant".