LAW

[jocor]

Rather, the deeper meaning is that the LORD is concerned that His ministers receive their wages for the office to which they have been appointed.

Correct. I was giving a simplified version of the deeper meaning because I knew JLB knew what I meant.

 

[JLB]

You are correct. Each individual farmer has a free will and can choose to muzzle his ox if he wants. Let me rephrase the question. Is it against the will of Yahweh for a NC farmer to muzzle his ox as it treads the corn?



The deeper meaning is that Yahweh is more concerned about man than oxen. That does not mean He is not concerned about oxen. He admonished us through Solomon to care for our animals.

Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
​

It is cruel and evil treatment to oxen to muzzle them as they work for us.

Just as a workman is worthy of his hire.

Are you under the impression that this principle began when the law was added?

I just did. Now you share the NT scripture that specifically commands us not to circumcise our sons.

What is the chapter and verse that teaches us to circumcise our children?

You stated your opinion, then tagged your opinion with Acts 21:21.

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law; 21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. Acts 21:20-21


This verse certainly does not teach us to circumcise our children.

and as we read down to verse 25, we see what was written.

25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality." Acts 21:25


Now referring back to post 629, I will ask you again, since you have provided no scripture to validate your statement that we as believers are required to be circumcised -

Whose requirement is it for us to circumcise our children.

Please share the New Testament scripture that requires us to circumcise our children.

The Jerusalem council stated clearly that Gentiles

24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"--to whom we gave no such commandment--
Acts 15:24


and again in Acts 21:25 it is stated again -


5 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality." Acts 21:25


Written and decided!



Tell us again who commands Gentile Christians to become circumcised, because it certainly is not in the scriptures.


No Circumcision, No law of Moses.



JLB

 

[jocor]

Just as a workman is worthy of his hire.

Are you under the impression that this principle began when the law was added?

Not at all. There are many commands given through Moses that were principles in effect before Moses. So if you are going to assume not muzzling an ox as it treads the corn is pre-Mosaic, then why not assume many other laws of Moses are also pre-Mosaic? Instead, you just dismiss them all as being obsolete. Consider Leviticus 18; I believe all those abominable acts were forbidden by Yahweh before Moses wrote them down. How about you? Was it OK for Isaac to have relations with his mother Sarah? If not, then Lev.18":7, for example, is another law of Moses that is pre-Mosaic. Yet, you would have us believe that the entire law of Moses is obsolete.

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law; 21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. Acts 21:20-21


This verse certainly does not teach us to circumcise our children.

and as we read down to verse 25, we see what was written.

25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality." Acts 21:25

The oldest MSS. read, "But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication." NASB

Many versions use a similar translation because they realize that "observe no such thing, except that they should" is a later addition to the text.

Now referring back to post 629, I will ask you again, since you have provided no scripture to validate your statement that we as believers are required to be circumcised -

Please stop trying to deceive other readers into believing I said things I never said. I said no new adult converts need to be circumcised. They can no longer obey that command to be circumcised on the 8th day, nor did YHWH specifically command them to be circumcised as adults.

The Jerusalem council stated clearly that Gentiles

24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"--to whom we gave no such commandment--
Acts 15:24

The oldest MSS. read, "Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls," NASB

Many versions use a similar translation because they realize that "saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"--" is a later addition to the text.

 

[JLB]

Not at all. There are many commands given through Moses that were principles in effect before Moses. So if you are going to assume not muzzling an ox as it treads the corn is pre-Mosaic, then why not assume many other laws of Moses are also pre-Mosaic? Instead, you just dismiss them all as being obsolete. Consider Leviticus 18; I believe all those abominable acts were forbidden by Yahweh before Moses wrote them down. How about you? Was it OK for Isaac to have relations with his mother Sarah? If not, then Lev.18":7, for example, is another law of Moses that is pre-Mosaic. Yet, you would have us believe that the entire law of Moses is obsolete.



The oldest MSS. read, "But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication." NASB

Many versions use a similar translation because they realize that "observe no such thing, except that they should" is a later addition to the text.




Please stop trying to deceive other readers into believing I said things I never said. I said no new adult converts need to be circumcised. They can no longer obey that command to be circumcised on the 8th day, nor did YHWH specifically command them to be circumcised as adults.



The oldest MSS. read, "Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls," NASB

Many versions use a similar translation because they realize that "saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"--" is a later addition to the text.

You are avoiding the fact that there are no NT scriptures that teach Christians to circumcise there children.


Acts 21:21 - 21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

No command here to circumcise our children.

25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality."


The word or God has found you out sir.


You are trying to add things to God's word to persuade some to be entangled in a yoke of bondage.


Paul warn us all that if we become circumcised we are debtors to keep the whole law.

Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
Galatians 5:2-3


These Gentile Christians were being compelled to become circumcised as a requirement, just as you are trying to teach here, as you have stated it is required by YHWH in the New Testament scriptures that we are commanded to circumcise our children.

You say that the scripture and YHWH commands us to circumcise our children.

If YHWH and the scriptures command us to circumcise our children then if we don't, then we are rebelling against the Lord which is unrighteousness.




JLB

 

[jocor]

You are avoiding the fact that there are no NT scriptures that teach Christians to circumcise there children.


Acts 21:21 - 21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

No command here to circumcise our children.

25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality."


The word or God has found you out sir.


You are trying to add things to God's word to persuade some to be entangled in a yoke of bondage.


Paul warn us all that if we become circumcised we are debtors to keep the whole law.

Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
Galatians 5:2-3


These Gentile Christians were being compelled to become circumcised as a requirement, just as you are trying to teach here, as you have stated it is required by YHWH in the New Testament scriptures that we are commanded to circumcise our children.

JLB

 

[jocor]

You say that the scripture and YHWH commands us to circumcise our children.

If YHWH and the scriptures command us to circumcise our children then if we don't, then we are rebelling against the Lord which is unrighteousness.

You got that right, but don't stop at circumcising our children. You have made many other laws given through Moses obsolete. If they are not, such as all the laws of Leviticus 18, then you are rebelling against them as well.

 

[JLB]

You got that right, but don't stop at circumcising our children. You have made many other laws given through Moses obsolete. If they are not, such as all the laws of Leviticus 18, then you are rebelling against them as well.

You should try reading what the New Testament says.


Stating your opinion, then "tagging" it with a scripture reference, like you did in the case of "claiming" the New Testament teaches us to circumcise our children as a command from God, and "tagging" with the scripture reference Acts 21:21.

Acts 21:21 does not command us to circumcise our children, as verse 25 clearly states.

21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow. 24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law. 25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality." Acts 21:21-25


Leviticus 18 is covered right here by the this verse from Acts 21:25 - ...except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality."

Just as Abraham was declared righteous before he was circumcised, because he walked with God, and obeyed His Voice.


Did you receive the Holy Spirit because you were circumcised?

Have you been Baptized in the Holy Spirit?


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The vast majority of law keepers I've talked to keep the law for the same reason the rest of us say we must 'not murder', 'not steal', etc. Like us, they do it, not to be declared righteous, but because they are convinced that is what the expression of saving faith should look like. We need to leave them alone and let them do that.

The danger is in causing someone who has this conviction about the law for them to then not do what they feel they must do by conscience because you persuaded him not to do it. Paul says if you do that you are no longer acting in love. He says you are tearing down the work of God by doing that. For a non-law keeper to offend a brother this way is far worse than the supposed sin of the law keeper who by conscience thinks he has to keep, for example, a literal Mosaic Sabbath.

I always keep this in mind when debating the law with a fellow believer who is under the conviction that he must keep the whole law for the same reason the rest of us keep part of it. I don't want to be guilty of destroying a brother. Leave them alone. Politely share your opinion about why you yourself don't feel compelled to keep the whole law, if they'll listen, and leave the rest alone.

 

[JLB]

Are we discussing the eating of certain foods, or observing certain days?

You are mixing up a principle about these things, together with those that teach heretical things.

1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. 5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Paul says, a little leaven leavens the whole lump.

Look at the context! Circumcision! Teaching Christians to keep the law of Moses, and be circumcised

1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. 7 You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion does not come from Him who calls you. 9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump. 10 I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. 11 And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased.


Teaching False doctrine -


When we have someone who teaches against major foundational doctrines, such as Jesus is not God or Lord [YHWH] and claims that translations that state this very truth are not valid.

Then claims that physical circumcision is a New Testament requirement from God, yet has no scriptures to back it up, I for one am going to post the scriptures that refute these heretical claims, so that any new Christians who are searching for the truth will not be persuaded by UN-Christian doctrines.

This person clearly states he is not a Christian.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This person clearly states he is not a Christian.

So do a couple of 'Christians' in this forum.

Unless I misunderstood, Jocor has plainly stated that he does not believe that law keeping has to be done for the purpose of justification.

As far as his belief that Jesus is not deity(?) that is not even a law issue. That belongs in another thread altogether.

 

[JLB]

So do a couple of 'Christians' in this forum.

Unless I misunderstood, Jocor has plainly stated that he does not believe that law keeping has to be done for the purpose of justification.

As far as his belief that Jesus is not deity(?) that is not even a law issue. That belongs in another thread altogether.

Stating that circumcision is a New Testament requirement from God, is a matter of sin and rebellion, and lawlessness.

He states that believers are required to circumcise their children as a commandment.

That is what he teaches.

 

[JLB]

Jethro said -

As far as his belief that Jesus is not deity(?) that is not even a law issue.

Not even a law issue? Isn't Deuteronomy in the law of Moses.

3 For I proclaim the name of the Lord: Ascribe greatness to our God. 4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He.
Deuteronomy 32:3-4


4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 1 Corinthians 10:4


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Stating that circumcision is a New Testament requirement from God, is a matter of sin and rebellion, and lawlessness.

He states that believers are required to circumcise their children as a commandment.

That is what he teaches.

He believes that for the exact same reason we say that you can not steal. We have no right to destroy his conviction. We can politely share our own understanding of this matter of law and hope that he might learn from it, but you and I have no Christian right to make his honest conviction on how faith in God must show itself in a person a matter of 'sin, and rebellion, and lawlessness'.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Not even a law issue? Isn't Deuteronomy in the law of Moses.

3 For I proclaim the name of the Lord: Ascribe greatness to our God. 4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He.
Deuteronomy 32:3-4


4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 1 Corinthians 10:4


JLB

This is not about whether Jesus is God, or not. This is about whether faith in God has to be manifest in the keeping of the letter of the law, or not.

 

[JLB]

He believes that for the exact same reason we say that you can not steal. We have no right to destroy his conviction. We can politely share our own understanding of this matter of law and hope that he might learn from it, but you and I have no Christian right to make his honest conviction on how faith in God must show itself in a person a matter of 'sin, and rebellion, and lawlessness'.

Brother, he is the one that considers it God's Commandment for Gentile Christians to circumcise their children.

That is what he is teaching this forum, sir.

JLB

 

[JLB]

This is not about whether Jesus is God, or not. This is about whether faith in God has to be manifest in the keeping of the letter of the law, or not.

The title of this thread is LAW!

The fact that God mandated to the children of Israel, that He is their only Lord, the Rock, and that His Law was to be obeyed, falls under the title topic: LAW

The New Testament teaches us that The Lord Jesus Christ the Rock!



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Brother, he is the one that considers it God's Commandment for Gentile Christians to circumcise their children.

That is what he is teaching this forum, sir.

JLB

And you are 'teaching' that we don't have to. You are both entitled to share what you believe and why. No need to stifle either opinion. Just share and leave it at that. It's not a life and death issue. When he starts saying we have to keep the letter of the law to be justified, then we'll get concerned about what he's sharing.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The title of this thread is LAW!

The fact that God mandated to the children of Israel, that He is their only Lord, the Rock, and that His Law was to be obeyed, falls under the title topic: LAW

The New Testament teaches us that The Lord Jesus Christ the Rock!



JLB

It's a serious matter, but I'm just not seeing how believing whether Jesus is deity is a matter of the ministration and purpose of the law of Moses.

 

[JLB]

It's a serious matter, but I'm just not seeing how believing whether Jesus is deity is a matter of the ministration and purpose of the law of Moses.

He is the Law [Word] that became flesh.


JLB

 

[JLB]

And you are 'teaching' that we don't have to. You are both entitled to share what you believe and why. No need to stifle either opinion. Just share and leave it at that. It's not a life and death issue. When he starts saying we have to keep the letter of the law to be justified, then we'll get concerned about what he's sharing.

I'm teaching what the New Testament teaches, Brother, Chapter and verse.

24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"--to whom we gave no such commandment--
Acts 15:24


Are you going to sit there and tell me that to teach young Christians that God commands them to circumcise there children is not serious?

That person will grow up believing that in order to be obedient to God [Righteous and Just] they must circumcise there children.

That is exactly what Paul taught against, that is the epitome of another Gospel, in which Paul placed a curse upon those who taught such.


It is alarming that you don't or can't see this.


JLB