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The sigh was the lack of a simple yes or no answer. It seems, from this post that your answer to the question "are apostates saved" is "yes". I just don't see any examples of this in the Bible.
One doesn't need examples when one understands the words of Scripture, which I've shared with you.

Eternal life is described as a gift (charisma) in Rom 6:23.
Jesus said that a believer has (present tense) eternal life in John 5:24. So, that means they have it WHEN they believe.
God's gifts (charisma) are irrevocable per Rom 11:29.

So, WHEN a person believes in Christ, they HAVE the gift of eternal life. And eternal life is irrevocable.

You can interpret Rom. 11:29 to mean "irrevocable" if you want, but nowhere does the Bible teach that perseverance is unnecessary for salvation, nor are there any examples of an apostate being saved.
I'm not sure why you bring up "perseverance" in Rom 11:29, because that isn't in that verse.

Here is the Greek word for 'irrevocable': ametamelētos
1) not repentant of, unregretted

The word relates to God's view of the gift; not man's. IOW, God does not either repent of or regret giving His gifts, which include eternal life. Which is why translators who well understand the Koine Greek of the 1st Century translate it as "irrevocable".

That means that God doesn't take back His gifts.

Or, let me put it this way: if God ever did or ever will take back His gifts, why doesn't Scripture come out and tell us in very plain and unambiguous wording?

If salvation can be lost, forfeited, returned, taken back, etc, why are there NO verses that say so?

The answer is clear: God's gifts are irrevocable. That includes the gift of eternal life.
 
In context, Paul isn't saying anything about temptation or being tempted. You can't introduce temptation where there is no temptation. Sin being active in the flesh is another subject. The devil tempting Jesus is another subject. What Paul is describing is not a weakness of the flesh towards sin. That would be introducing something completely out of context and it would make the whole letter a confusion of theological necessities as you say. But they are your necessities. I can see you're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

I sincerely try to engage any theological premise with honesty.

I can't honesty say that believers do NOT have internal spiritual enemies the scripture terms Satan and devils. Their avenues are theft of Word from hearts particularly causing spiritual blindness to the facts of their internal attacks, temptation and a myriad of various deceptions and divisions that have been blood splattered across the history of the 'church.'

All of that transpires within everyone. The world itself is filled to the brim with examples. Even here.

The premise of trying to potentially eternally damn any believer on any basis is just part of their deployments. People, believers even, who do that merely show their internal slaveship to such powers and do not, can not understand what they are doing. They themselves have to this extent laid stumbling blocks to others and exempted themselves from the wicked power in the heart of everyman that is slated for eternal destruction.

1 John 5:19
And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

None are exempt from that reality.

Best to cling to the Rock in all cases because both of these engagements is what happens withIN every believer:

Matthew 21:44
And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

When we are saved we are BROKEN from Satan's power.

Satan however will have the latter fate.
 
9 So He said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, 30 who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life." Luke 18:29-30

This verse is crystal clear to those who are seeking the truth.
And this verse does NOT say WHEN one HAS eternal life.

But John 5:24 directly DOES say WHEN. The believer HAS eternal life. Jesus wasn't speaking about the future, esp since He used the present tense, which you like to ignore.

Those who left the natural things of this life, family and houses... for the sake of the kingdom will receive them back many times more in this present time.
This isn't about salvation, but about receiving eternal rewards, which ARE for the future. The verse you are using doesn't support your view.

And John 5:24 directly REFUTES your view.

In addition to the earthly things that these left, they also will receive eternal life in the age to come.

What verse says this?


18 That they do good , that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute , willing to communicate; 19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come , that they may lay hold on eternal life. 1 Timothy 6:18-19
Uh, "laying hold" has nothing to do with WHEN one possesses eternal life.

And all you're trying to do is pit Scripture against Scripture. Not nice.

and again -
1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; Titus 1:1-2
Again, hope here is confidence of salvation, not WHEN one receives it.

Please stop trying to pit Scripture against Scripture. Jesus already told us WHEN one HAS eternal life.

24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. 1 John 2:24-25
Yes, the promise of eternal life is given WHEN one believes, as Jesus clearly noted in John 5:24.

You are refuted once more.

These verse's teach us we have the hope and the promise of eternal life...If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son,JLB
And I've explained just how misguided your view of Scripture is.

Jesus told us WHEN one HAS eternal life. All believers HAVE it.

And, just to remind you, eternal life is a gift (charisma), and all of God's gifts (charisma) are irrevocable.

Your view barks up the wrong tree.
 
And this verse does NOT say WHEN one HAS eternal life.

But John 5:24 directly DOES say WHEN. The believer HAS eternal life. Jesus wasn't speaking about the future, esp since He used the present tense, which you like to ignore.


This isn't about salvation, but about receiving eternal rewards, which ARE for the future. The verse you are using doesn't support your view.

And John 5:24 directly REFUTES your view.


What verse says this?



Uh, "laying hold" has nothing to do with WHEN one possesses eternal life.

And all you're trying to do is pit Scripture against Scripture. Not nice.


Again, hope here is confidence of salvation, not WHEN one receives it.

Please stop trying to pit Scripture against Scripture. Jesus already told us WHEN one HAS eternal life.


Yes, the promise of eternal life is given WHEN one believes, as Jesus clearly noted in John 5:24.

You are refuted once more.


And I've explained just how misguided your view of Scripture is.

Jesus told us WHEN one HAS eternal life. All believers HAVE it.

And, just to remind you, eternal life is a gift (charisma), and all of God's gifts (charisma) are irrevocable.

Your view barks up the wrong tree.



Eternal Life is given In the age to come.

...to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

9 So He said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, 30 who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life." Luke 18:29-30


The end of your faith, is the salvation of your soul. 1 Peter 1:9


...eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

...to those who by patient continuance in doing good


...continuance in doing good

5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Romans 2:5-10


...those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath,


...but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good,



...to everyone who works what is good,

...who works what is good,


We have been given the hope of eternal life, a sure promise from God to those who believe, and continue to believe unto the end.


JLB
 
Eternal Life is given In the age to come.

...to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

9 So He said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, 30 who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life." Luke 18:29-30

The end of your faith, is the salvation of your soul. 1 Peter 1:9

...eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

...to those who by patient continuance in doing good


...continuance in doing good

5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Romans 2:5-10

...those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath,

...but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good,


...to everyone who works what is good,

...who works what is good,

We have been given the hope of eternal life, a sure promise from God to those who believe, and continue to believe unto the end.

JLB

You speak to the New Body when you say eternal life is to come. That is true. But that doesn't eliminate these statements:

1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed from death unto life
, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

To many, those statements don't exist. Yet they are there, written.

I might even say that those who toss the fallen faithful potentially under the eternal damnation bus certainly DON'T love them by any means. Such only seek to scare them or to eternally destroy them.

Romans 14:10
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Romans 14:4
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Why is it that Gods Ability to save is even questioned? It was never in the hand of any man to save himself to begin with.

On the cause of man providing his own salvation on ANY basis?

FAIL.
 
The sigh was the lack of a simple yes or no answer. It seems, from this post that your answer to the question "are apostates saved" is "yes". I just don't see any examples of this in the Bible.

Don't even get us started on that routine from your end. We all know we are apostates by the measures you are forced to apply.

You can interpret Rom. 11:29 to mean "irrevocable" if you want,

If you got past your imposed filters you will plainly see that ALL of Israel was called out by God and ALL of them shall be saved, even the enemies of the Gospel who are saved not for the sake of anything they did, but for their fathers sake.

Romans 11:25-32.

It's very unfortunate that generations of religious magistrates can't seem to read simple english.
but nowhere does the Bible teach that perseverance is unnecessary for salvation, nor are there any examples of an apostate being saved.

Romans 11:25-32 is a great challenge to many false positions. Certainly yours.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Many readers will look at the above and they will not and can not believe their eyes.

It's an interesting phenomena.
 
There is no benefit to any believer calling down the eternal fires of hell on (their surmised version) of a fallen believer.

All such believers have done is taken the fire of hell into their own hearts and denied the Power of God in Christ TO SAVE in the process.

Believers can separate out the unruly from among them. They used to call it shunning, but over time it took on an evil twist.

Believers who take up damning the fallen faithful are themselves being baited into it, and show openly that a secret power monger abides within them.
 
Those who believe, are promised by the Lord Jesus Christ, eternal life...in the age to come... eternal life


JLB
Most assuredly, OSAS agrees.

Do you somehow think OSAS says those that believe are not in fact promised the gift of Eternal Life in the age to come by the Lord Jesus Christ? That's kind of the point OSAS is making, yet anti-OSAS says the promise is a revoccable promise. That the Lord revoces His promise given X amount of post-belief sin(s).

Hogwash. The Lord's promises are true now and in the age to come.

Salvation of all people that answer the call to believe is even said to be given now (present tense in addition to future tense) AND remains with all believers (not just some of the less sinful ones), now, inbetween AND in the age to come.

There is no Scripture that you can post that OSAS disagrees with.

And the kicker, ... we OSASers feel zero need to 'balance' one Scripture against another supposedly opposing Scripture. Which is the proof of who's right here.

You do realize that there is no Scripture (tagged or quoted) that teaches we must 'balance' Scripture(s) right?
 
Romans 11:25-32.

It's very unfortunate that generations of religious magistrates can't seem to read simple english.


Romans 11:25-32 is a great challenge to many false positions. Certainly yours.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Many readers will look at the above and they will not and can not believe their eyes.

It's an interesting phenomena.
Rom 5:18~~New American Standard Bible
So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

So we are all saved?
~~~~~~~~~~~
Romans 11:26~~26 And so all Israel[tribulation believers] shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Isa 59:20, “’And a Redeemer will come to Zion, and to those who turn from transgression in Jacob,{all true/believing Israel}

All Israel will be saved is the true/believing Israel. Because the Godless unbelieving Jews will be removed or turned away. Unbelieving/ungodly Israel will not be saved to go into the 1000 year reign.IOW the Deliverer will turn away the ungodly/unbelieving Jew and only true Israel will be saved.

Isa 32:6, “For a fool speaks nonsense, and his heart inclines toward wickedness: to practice ungodliness and to speak error against the Lord, to keep the hungry person unsatisfied and to withhold drink from the thirsty.”

Rom 1:18, “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness.”
 
Rom 5:18~~New American Standard Bible
So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

So we are all saved?

I can only speak to Jewish enemies of the Gospel as it pertains to this matter, them ALL being saved.

But as you might tell from my other posts, we DO all of us bear as Paul did.

That which is carried within each of us is slated for ETERNAL DESTRUCTION in hells fires, forever.

The position of OSAS does have it's clear limitations. To understand eternal damnation, it should be amply heaped upon ourselves first and foremost.

The evil present with Paul, the sin that indwelt his flesh that was not him, the messenger of Satan in Paul's own flesh was/is and remains scheduled for eradication in hell beyond any doubt.

And that's the really hard part to come to grips with, personally, for any believer. We're just not used to APPLYING that side of the ledgers to ourselves.

Paul was OSAS. So is any believer, having called upon our Lord to save. They shall be saved and not a MAYBE.

But that action does not address the entirety of what any of us consist of.

Eternal damnation is much closer to home for each of us. Anytime we perceive a temptation thought of the tempter, eternal damnation is a very effective reminder tool to be used against the agent of internal temptation. That would be the devil.

Most are used to just insulating themselves from that side of the equation when they should be jumping headlong into the matters from a personal perspective.

To see WHO was not Israel but was with Israel, one needs only to LOOK here:

Romans 11:
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day.

That AGENT was/is Satan, put upon all who are blinded to the Gospel, before or AFTER salvation.

We all deal with internal temptation by that agent that is NOT US.
 
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Most assuredly, OSAS agrees.

Do you somehow think OSAS says those that believe are not in fact promised the gift of Eternal Life in the age to come by the Lord Jesus Christ? That's kind of the point OSAS is making, yet anti-OSAS says the promise is a revoccable promise. That the Lord revoces His promise given X amount of post-belief sin(s).

Hogwash. The Lord's promises are true now and in the age to come.

Salvation of all people that answer the call to believe is even said to be given now (present tense in addition to future tense) AND remains with all believers (not just some of the less sinful ones), now, inbetween AND in the age to come.

There is no Scripture that you can post that OSAS disagrees with.

And the kicker, ... we OSASers feel zero need to 'balance' one Scripture against another supposedly opposing Scripture. Which is the proof of who's right here.

You do realize that there is no Scripture (tagged or quoted) that teaches we must 'balance' Scripture(s) right?


Ok. Let's compare what you have stated here, as your opinion, with what the scriptures actually teach.


5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Romans 2:5-10

...eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality.


Here is the nail in the coffin for the OSAS "doctrine".

... but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; Romans 2:8-9

To the Jew first!!! Well there goes your "theory about salvation being irrevocable to the Jews in Romans 11:29


... tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

Every soul, Christians , Jews EVERYBODY!!! :eek


So much for your excuse that Paul is talking to the world!!


JLB
 
... but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; Romans 2:8-9

To the Jew first!!! Well there goes your "theory about salvation being irrevocable to the Jews in Romans 11:29

Then by right, you also condemn Paul as well who admitted he ALSO had evil present with him and DID evil. (Romans 7)

And you surely insulate yourself from doing evil as well.

Your basis is that of faulty hypocrisy and nothing more.

God will not double deal this matter.
 
Then by right, you also condemn Paul as well who admitted he ALSO had evil present with him and DID evil. (Romans 7)

And you surely insulate yourself from doing evil as well.

Your basis is that of faulty hypocrisy and nothing more.

God will not double deal this matter.


5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Romans 2:5-10

...eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality.


but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;


JLB
 
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
JLB

It's no benefit for you to avoid Paul's statements of facts that he DID evil and had evil present with him.

In your sight this would mean Paul was damned.

So admit that is where your imposition of sight takes you.
 
I can only speak to Jewish enemies of the Gospel as it pertains to this matter, them ALL being saved.

But as you might tell from my other posts, we DO all of us bear as Paul did.

That which is carried within each of us is slated for ETERNAL DESTRUCTION in hells fires, forever.

The position of OSAS does have it's clear limitations. To understand eternal damnation, it should be amply heaped upon ourselves first and foremost.

The evil present with Paul, the sin that indwelt his flesh that was not him, the messenger of Satan in Paul's own flesh was/is and remains scheduled for eradication in hell beyond any doubt.

And that's the really hard part to come to grips with, personally, for any believer. We're just not used to APPLYING that side of the ledgers to ourselves.

Paul was OSAS. So is any believer, having called upon our Lord to save. They shall be saved and not a MAYBE.

But that action does not address the entirety of what any of us consist of.

Eternal damnation is much closer to home for each of us. Anytime we perceive a temptation thought of the tempter, eternal damnation is a very effective reminder tool to be used against the agent of internal temptation. That would be the devil.

Most are used to just insulating themselves from that side of the equation when they should be jumping headlong into the matters from a personal perspective.

To see WHO was not Israel but was with Israel, one needs only to LOOK here:

Romans 11:
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day.

That AGENT was/is Satan, put upon all who are blinded to the Gospel, before or AFTER salvation.

We all deal with internal temptation by that agent that is NOT US.
I can only speak to Jewish enemies of the Gospel as it pertains to this matter, them ALL being saved.

But as you might tell from my other posts, we DO all of us bear as Paul did.

That which is carried within each of us is slated for ETERNAL DESTRUCTION in hells fires, forever.

The position of OSAS does have it's clear limitations. To understand eternal damnation, it should be amply heaped upon ourselves first and foremost.

The evil present with Paul, the sin that indwelt his flesh that was not him, the messenger of Satan in Paul's own flesh was/is and remains scheduled for eradication in hell beyond any doubt.

And that's the really hard part to come to grips with, personally, for any believer. We're just not used to APPLYING that side of the ledgers to ourselves.

Paul was OSAS. So is any believer, having called upon our Lord to save. They shall be saved and not a MAYBE.

But that action does not address the entirety of what any of us consist of.

Eternal damnation is much closer to home for each of us. Anytime we perceive a temptation thought of the tempter, eternal damnation is a very effective reminder tool to be used against the agent of internal temptation. That would be the devil.

Most are used to just insulating themselves from that side of the equation when they should be jumping headlong into the matters from a personal perspective.

To see WHO was not Israel but was with Israel, one needs only to LOOK here:

Romans 11:
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day.

That AGENT was/is Satan, put upon all who are blinded to the Gospel, before or AFTER salvation.

We all deal with internal temptation by that agent that is NOT US.

maxresdefault.jpg
 
[waste of cyberspace]

You can diminish the fact of temptation by the tempter anyway you are so LED.

The fact is that temptation of the tempter transpires within believers and that ENTITY has the fate of eternal damnation.

There is no getting around it.
 
You can diminish the fact of temptation by the tempter anyway you are so LED.

The fact is that temptation of the tempter transpires within believers and that ENTITY has the fate of eternal damnation.

There is no getting around it.
Smaller, you completely ignore the fact that we are responsible. And our sin nature is evil and would continue to be evil without the help of satan.

the 1000 year reign is going to show us. Satan is bound the whole 1000 years.

And Adam was NOT deceived in the garden. He chose the fruit knowing it was wrong. Nobody was controlling his choice.
 
Smaller, you completely ignore the fact that we are responsible.

Believers can be as responsible as they please. They will not avoid temptation of the tempter internally and that party is damned to hell regardless of 'responsibility' of the believer.

That same agent is also responsible for the deception of EVERY believer as well, particularly those who fall from faith. And even moreso with those who LIE.

And our sin nature is evil

The sin nature is DEMONIC.

and would continue to be evil without the help of satan.

How would you know? That's mere speculation.

the 1000 year reign is going to show us. Satan is bound the whole 1000 years.

Go post it in the end times thread. More than likely we won't be seeing eye to eye on end time matters.

And Adam was NOT deceived in the garden. He chose the fruit knowing it was wrong. Nobody was controlling his choice.

The carnal natural man doesn't know they are deceived. Such was Adam and his inner man, EVE deceived by SATAN's entry.

You guys who play that the tempter has no role within man are spiritually blinded to the fact and nothing more.
 
The carnal natural man doesn't know they are deceived. Such was Adam and his inner man, EVE deceived by SATAN's entry.
You ignore scripture.
New American Standard Bible
And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

And follow your bizarre logic with this.....If Eve was Adams inner man, Eve(Adams inner man) was removed from Adam. So Adam stood as his very own agent. And was NOT deceived.
What scripture shows satan entered Eve?

You guys who play that the tempter has no role within man are spiritually blinded to the fact and nothing more.
I have never said satan doesn't have a role. satan just doesn't have the role of God,which you seem to want him to have.
You have taken mans responsibility out of the equation and have handed it ALL over to satan. I can just blame it ALL on satan.
 
You ignore scripture.
New American Standard Bible
And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

We've gone through that at length. You don't think Mark 4:15 applies. I do.

Therein is the essence of our difference in sights.

Eve was within Adam when that transpired. All deception and theft via Satan transpires internally and EVE is a picture of that.

You see like an external flesh man on the subjects. So what?

And follow your bizarre logic with this.....If Eve was Adams inner man, Eve(Adams inner man) was removed from Adam. So Adam stood as his very own agent. And was NOT deceived.

Adam was undoubtedly a CARNAL man. That is why he was not deceived because he was ignorant of Satan's entry, just like every flesh man is.

Carnal slaves of Satan don't know their spiritual condition, internally. They are captured by the deceiver INTERNALLY, in MIND and HEART.

What scripture shows satan entered Eve?

Every seed parable in the N.T. including Mark 4:15. If you follow the tracks the deception marks are clearly upon both Adam and Eve, and long before they actually ATE.

But if you have a hard time grasping the reality of that entry there is little use in even trying to move on to the even better stuff, but as entertainment, Paul tells us that the LAW is given to SINNERS.

The first law, DO NOT EAT, was laid upon ADAM in the Garden.

That's because Adam had already been INTERNALLY VIOLATED and already had SIN THEFT OF WORD internally by Satan's entry, by the entrance of the tempter, AFTER Gods Word was sown upon him to be fruitful and multiply. Carnal FLESH slaves of deception CAN'T be deceived because of their blinded by Satan, IGNORANCE.

That law was unto the LAWLESS, that would be the tempter, the deceiver, who had responded right on cue IMMEDIATELY after the Word was sown.

Yet flesh men can't see this and will blame only Adam and Eve and will COMPLETELY ignore how the tempter works with entry, temptation, deception and theft.

Why is that you ask? Because all flesh men have the same problem. They just can't get there.

I have never said satan doesn't have a role.

You going to double talk and backtrack now?

If you ask me, any believer who says they have no internal temptation by the TEMPTER is a mere liar, and has been turned into one by the TEMPTER. As such they are blinded slaves themselves as to their internal spiritual awareness.

In short, they DON'T HAVE ANY.

satan just doesn't have the role of God,which you seem to want him to have.

If you say that Satan and devils DO NOT enter MAN, I would simply point you to the THOUSANDS of examples of this FACT in the N.T. Gospels.

Sin is of the devil. There is no delinking to be had.
You have taken mans responsibility out of the equation

You can salve yourself with responsibility all the day long and you will NEVER change what Satan does one iota. AND you will never be able to say you have NO SIN, that sin is NOT of the devil or that you DON'T have evil thoughts. This much is just hard line scriptural fact.

and have handed it ALL over to satan. I can just blame it ALL on satan.

You can't even get the evil antagonist entity on the table of theological discussion.

We can look at the again hardline fact that the god of this world blinds peoples minds to the Gospel and is linked to every sin and to you? Ah, it must be ONLY MAN.

How blind is that, really?

And that is also part of what the TEMPTER does in people.

The ACCUSER accuses only MANKIND. And most get sucked into his game quite quickly and easily because they have no spiritual SELF awareness in them of the matters as it regards their OWN internal temptation.

They are led immediately into DENIAL by that party.

And as such it will remain the most difficult territory in all of theology.
 
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