Bible Study Bible & homosexual marriage

[Christ_empowered]

Based on personal experience, I've come to realize that sodomy is a problem because...male and female are/were designed to be complementary. That's why I think even some of the worst heterosexual relationships can last and improve, whereas even the best homosexual union tends to be relatively short-lived and non-monogamous. In fact, monogamy is extremely rare in the homosexual community, which is one reason I'm a little worred about gay marriage affecting marriage norms for the rest of us.

Anyway, its sad, too, the ill effects of the gay lifestyle. I mean, obviously, for gay dudes there's HIV/AIDS, which affects something like 15% of men who have sex with men. That's crazy. There's also...I dunno...a hardening of sorts that I've seen. You start out all young and wide eyed and then hook ups, short lived "relationships," so on and so forth...before you know it, you're a hardened 30- or 40- something, completely disillusioned and...stuck. Trapped.

Me, I'm glad I got saved, clearly. The way out is through The Lord. Now I get to lead a moral, good life, and become...real. 3-dimensional. Gay life, like any sinful lifestyle, sucks the life out of people and hardens them, coarsens character, dulls emotions.

 

[OzSpen]

Claim 4: We don’t follow all sorts of OT laws today (try laws on having sex while a woman is menstruating, or eating certain types of food), so why should we accept what the OT says about same-sex relationships?

This is a totally bogus argument from a Torah keepers perspective, but from the wishy-washy perspective on OT law put forth by many Christians, it is a valid argument. Any person who has sex with a menstruating woman is in violation of Yahweh's moral law. Yet, many Christians have no problem committing such a vile act because the NT does not specifically forbid it. That is equivalent to the cannibalism example Jim Parker pointed out. Cannibalism is not forbidden in the NT, but you don't find Christians saying it is now permissible.

jocor,

It's too bad you didn't take note of what Darrell Bock wrote about Claim 4. He wrote:

We already set the trajectory for this answer when we noted that all the biblical texts on homosexuality, both in the OT and NT, are negative. Yet one other observation needs to be made. Some OT laws deal with the issue of uncleanness tied to the temple and worship, which aren’t categories of sin but of appropriateness tied to worship. These aren’t moral laws, but restrictions that distinguished Israel from the surrounding polytheistic nations who were morally loose and sacrificed certain types of animals (and in some cases, children) as part of their worship. This claim shows no sensitivity to these biblical distinctions. In some cases, it ends up comparing apples to oranges since issues of uncleanness were set aside in the NT when Gentiles came into the fold (Acts 10:9–29; Eph. 2:11–22; Col. 2:13–15).

The facts are that this is the NT's view of homosexuality:

1. Romans 1:26-27 (ESV) describes men and women who engage in homosexual behaviour as those who practise 'dishonorable passions' and engage in acts 'contrary to nature'. The men who engaged in homosexual acts 'gave up natural relations with women' and in doing this were 'consumed with passion'. In addition, these men were 'committing shameless acts with men' and in doing this they received 'the due penalty of their error'.
2. 1 Cor 6:9-11 (NIV) is very clear that those who commit homosexual acts will not enter the kingdom of God - just as those who are heterosexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, slanderers and swindlers. God regards those who practice homosexuality as being among those who will not enter the kingdom of God because of unrighteousness that is not forgiven.

Oz

 

[reba]

standing against the political movement ... is not the same as not loving the the sinner ... standing against this ugliness is loving the sinner.
So far stealing is a sin we as a nation stand against it.... it is one of the few hanging on by a thread...

 

[reba]

Me, I'm glad I got saved, clearly. The way out is through The Lord. Now I get to lead a moral, good life, and become...real. 3-dimensional. Gay life, like any sinful lifestyle, sucks the life out of people and hardens them, coarsens character, dulls emotions.

 

[jocor]

jocor,

It's too bad you didn't take note of what Darrell Bock wrote about Claim 4.

He wrote, "We already set the trajectory for this answer when we noted that all the biblical texts on homosexuality, both in the OT and NT, are negative. Yet one other observation needs to be made. Some OT laws deal with the issue of uncleanness tied to the temple and worship, which aren’t categories of sin but of appropriateness tied to worship. These aren’t moral laws, but restrictions that distinguished Israel from the surrounding polytheistic nations who were morally loose and sacrificed certain types of animals (and in some cases, children) as part of their worship. This claim shows no sensitivity to these biblical distinctions. In some cases, it ends up comparing apples to oranges since issues of uncleanness were set aside in the NT when Gentiles came into the fold (Acts 10:9–29; Eph. 2:11–22; Col. 2:13–15).

I did take note of it and rejected it. He is assuming having relations with a menstruating woman is forbidden, not because it is immoral, but because it is tied to temple purity. If you read Leviticus 20, you will see that it is included among many forbidden relationships such as homosexuality, bestiality, etc. The nations committed such abominations even though they had no temple. Yahweh fully expects His people to not follow their perverted example.

 

[OzSpen]

I did take note of it and rejected it. He is assuming having relations with a menstruating woman is forbidden, not because it is immoral, but because it is tied to temple purity. If you read Leviticus 20, you will see that it is included among many forbidden relationships such as homosexuality, bestiality, etc. The nations committed such abominations even though they had no temple. Yahweh fully expects His people to not follow their perverted example.

So is your position that the OT law is valid for NT Christian believers?

 

[jocor]

So is your position that the OT law is valid for NT Christian believers?

Yes, unless it was fulfilled by Yeshua such as animal sacrifices. Forbidden relationships are still forbidden because Yeshua did not fulfil them.

 

[OzSpen]

Yes, unless it was fulfilled by Yeshua such as animal sacrifices. Forbidden relationships are still forbidden because Yeshua did not fulfil them.

That's not what Galatians 3:23-29 (ESV) teaches:

23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave [bond servant] nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise.

Paul confronted Peter for his hypocritical behaviour: 'If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?' (Gal 2:14 ESV). To the Judaisers, Paul could say forthrightly, 'We know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified' (Gal 2:16 ESV).

What's Paul's conclusion and challenge? 'I do not nullify the grace of God, for if justification [or righteousness] were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose' (Gal 2:21 ESV).

Therefore, are you nullifying what Christ taught in Galatians 2?

Oz

 

[th1b.taylor]

Claim 4: We don’t follow all sorts of OT laws today (try laws on having sex while a woman is menstruating, or eating certain types of food), so why should we accept what the OT says about same-sex relationships?

This is a totally bogus argument from a Torah keepers perspective, but from the wishy-washy perspective on OT law put forth by many Christians, it is a valid argument. Any person who has sex with a menstruating woman is in violation of Yahweh's moral law. Yet, many Christians have no problem committing such a vile act because the NT does not specifically forbid it. That is equivalent to the cannibalism example Jim Parker pointed out. Cannibalism is not forbidden in the NT, but you don't find Christians saying it is now permissible.

[The bolded red quote] There are millions of people on the rolls of the Church who are not the Church spoken of in the scriptures. But if we read the Bible, the complete 66 books, there are many, many lessons for a man to incorporate into one's life. When I walked off stage on 1/1/'90 the book I had been trying to decipher, the King James Bible, was no longer in need of my efforts to decipher it. Twenty minutes after i walked away from guaranteed fame and fortune the king James Bible read just as clearly as any novel I ever picked up.

The problem with Christianity is the root of this and all such discussions. Brother, you are right! and the issue is who is a Christian? In Matthew 7:13 and the associated verses explain to us that the gat to destruction is broad and many pass through there. And then if we go to Matt. 2:1-14 we find Jesus drawing a word picture (a parable) of Heaven. In this illustration II have come to understand the passage, many are called but few are chosen.

It is popular to proclaim that all saved men are members of the Bride but the scriptures teach us this is not true. All saved men are permanently saved but not all are the Bride,, most are the guests at the feast. A Christ Follower in a Christian! As for the matter you discussed and I high lighted, I never went there and as a Christ Follower, I never will, even, consider such a thing. I no longer plan to sin and I live my best li9fe for my LORD. That is what a Christian is. Sunday Morning Bench Warmers... they are Pew Whales and we must not only pray for them,, we must live the Christian Life, right, in front of them.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Yes, unless it was fulfilled by Yeshua such as animal sacrifices. Forbidden relationships are still forbidden because Yeshua did not fulfil them.

No brother,, you hold the wrong point of view. I teach the Law becau88se it is the perfect Word Picture of the LORD we are to try to become. If the Law is still in effect we are all damned.

 

[evenifigoalone]

I don't think its helpful to call transgender ppl "immoral freaks."

+1

You can believe someone is wrong, you can believe they are being deceived, and you can (and should!) be honest about this. But...if you want to lead them to Christ, this needs to be reflected in your speech. If inflammatory language is used you only push people away--this isn't about being "politically correct", it's about how we talk and communicate can negatively or positively influence our witness. Pushing people away isn't exactly helpful to that end.

 

[ezra]

+1

You can believe someone is wrong, you can believe they are being deceived, and you can (and should!) be honest about this. But...if you want to lead them to Christ, this needs to be reflected in your speech. If inflammatory language is used you only push people away--this isn't about being "politically correct", it's about how we talk and communicate can negatively or positively influence our witness. Pushing people away isn't exactly helpful to that end.

agreed

 

[jocor]

That's not what Galatians 3:23-29 (ESV) teaches:

23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave [bond servant] nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise.​

Paul confronted Peter for his hypocritical behaviour: 'If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?' (Gal 2:14 ESV). To the Judaisers, Paul could say forthrightly, 'We know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified' (Gal 2:16 ESV).

What's Paul's conclusion and challenge? 'I do not nullify the grace of God, for if justification [or righteousness] were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose' (Gal 2:21 ESV).

Therefore, are you nullifying what Christ taught in Galatians 2?

Oz

No, I am not nullifying what Christ taught in Galatians 2. You asked me if I thought the OT law was "valid" for NT Christian believers. You did not ask me if I thought NT Christian believers are justified by the Law.

We are NOT justified by the Law. We are justified by faith. Obeying the laws of our Creator are the fruit of our justification, not the means to it.

We were imprisoned by the Law and were awaiting the death penalty because we broke the Law (sinned - 1 John 3:4). Messiah freed us from that prison and the death penalty. He did not make us free to break the very laws we broke that led to our imprisonment in the first place. He freed us and taught us to go and sin no more. How? By NOT breaking the Law. That is why the Holy Spirit through Paul said, "Do we then make void the Law through faith? God forbid! Yes, we establish the Law." (Romans 3:31)

 

[jocor]

No brother,, you hold the wrong point of view. I teach the Law becau88se it is the perfect Word Picture of the LORD we are to try to become. If the Law is still in effect we are all damned.

First, let me say I "Like" your previous post, but I could not find a "Like" link.

Second, the Law is most assuredly still in effect, but its condemnation is not. Messiah Yeshua paid the penalty for our sin (death). The Law can no longer put us to death. The NT clearly teaches obedience to many OT laws (no adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, murder, lying, stealing, coveting, forbidden sexual relations, drunkenness, etc.).

If we want to become like Yeshua, then we need to stop sinning. Sin is the transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). If the Law is no longer in effect, then we are free to do all the above.

 

[Kidron]

Based on personal experience, I've come to realize that sodomy is a problem because...male and female are/were designed to be complementary. That's why I think even some of the worst heterosexual relationships can last and improve,

The 1st Law of Nature (Mother Nature), is "replenish the species.
That is, recreate the species, as if the species is not replenished, then the species dies, therefore as Gay sex cant REPRODUCE the species, is it unnatural as it cant complete the actual REASON that Sex exists.
See, sex is not created only to give us a feel good reaction with babies a secondary result, but God created the sex act to be so very pleasurable and us as humans to have a strong sex drive, that we perform this act to reproduce as the #1 reason sex exists.
The specific reason sex exists , is to keep the species alive, which gives God the family that He designed the whole "human opera" to achieve.
So, if the #1 REASON for sex (reproduction) cant be accomplished by "gay sex" then gay sex is not normal and not natural.

 

[Ph8th]

I do not understand what the debate is, I do not understand how "Christians" can continue to look for a grey area in God s word. He is a never changing God from the beginning. He gave all a way to Him through His Son Jesus. I myself am a whoremonger, thief, cheat, covet... ect. But He gave me choice and I chose to live my life to please Him..(I fail all the time) To entertain or consider such as this post suggest is and question the integrity of the very God I serve. We have to choose Him or this world we can't have both.
peter

 

[jasonc]

+1

You can believe someone is wrong, you can believe they are being deceived, and you can (and should!) be honest about this. But...if you want to lead them to Christ, this needs to be reflected in your speech. If inflammatory language is used you only push people away--this isn't about being "politically correct", it's about how we talk and communicate can negatively or positively influence our witness. Pushing people away isn't exactly helpful to that end.

a nuance approach is useful. timing is everything. I have a family member who is a bi female, single mother of three. yes naming her a sodomite will go real well if its not in proper timing or place

 

[Douglas Summers]

Claim 4: We don’t follow all sorts of OT laws today (try laws on having sex while a woman is menstruating, or eating certain types of food), so why should we accept what the OT says about same-sex relationships?

This is a totally bogus argument from a Torah keepers perspective, but from the wishy-washy perspective on OT law put forth by many Christians, it is a valid argument. Any person who has sex with a menstruating woman is in violation of Yahweh's moral law. Yet, many Christians have no problem committing such a vile act because the NT does not specifically forbid it. That is equivalent to the cannibalism example Jim Parker pointed out. Cannibalism is not forbidden in the NT, but you don't find Christians saying it is now permissible.

One who lives their life by what Jesus did not say, as authoritative permission. How will they defend their life by not living by the things He did say as authoritative restrictions? When God will judges the secrets of men at the judgment. BTW, The NT gives the same condemnation as the OT on homosexuality. (Rom. 1: 16-32)
In Christ
Douglas Summers

 

[Christ_empowered]

The 1st Law of Nature (Mother Nature), is "replenish the species.
That is, recreate the species, as if the species is not replenished, then the species dies, therefore as Gay sex cant REPRODUCE the species, is it unnatural as it cant complete the actual REASON that Sex exists.
See, sex is not created only to give us a feel good reaction with babies a secondary result, but God created the sex act to be so very pleasurable and us as humans to have a strong sex drive, that we perform this act to reproduce as the #1 reason sex exists.
The specific reason sex exists , is to keep the species alive, which gives God the family that He designed the whole "human opera" to achieve.
So, if the #1 REASON for sex (reproduction) cant be accomplished by "gay sex" then gay sex is not normal and not natural.

I think sex is about more than making babies, especially within a monogamous, Christ-centered (of course, heterosexual) marriage. If you'll notice, human beings have been trying to control fertility and sometimes terminate pregnancies for thousands of years.

I think male/female complementarity isn't limited to marriage. I've observed how men and women interact, and I think there's just...a balance going on. Even when the dude isn't a man's man and the woman isn't the most feminine creature, even when there's 0 hint of romantic stuff, even when the dude is homogay...it just...works. I don't know how it works with women, but you have too many dudes together, you'll get conflict, sometimes fights. The complementarity isn't there.

 

[Abigail123]

First, let me say I "Like" your previous post, but I could not find a "Like" link.

Second, the Law is most assuredly still in effect, but its condemnation is not. Messiah Yeshua paid the penalty for our sin (death). The Law can no longer put us to death. The NT clearly teaches obedience to many OT laws (no adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, murder, lying, stealing, coveting, forbidden sexual relations, drunkenness, etc.).

If we want to become like Yeshua, then we need to stop sinning. Sin is the transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). If the Law is no longer in effect, then we are free to do all the above.

This contradicts what Paul said here:
1 Cor 10:23 “All things are lawful,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful,” but not all things build up.

If we are under Law, then yes, it would mean that we are sinning under the Law and breaking one of them, means we have broken them all, no one can live this way and succeed. Fortunately, this is not the case for Christians, and in fact, we should be viewing this that the standards we have are far above the Law given to the Isrealities! This should not be difficult to see, Christ said adultery is no longer sleeping with another, it is looking upon another with lustful eyes. Even the very thought of doing is a sin. The Holy Spirit was given to us so that we are able to do this! Take every thought captive to Christ! Walk as Christ walked! There are many versus which point us to this concept.

There is freedom, however because Christ is the end of the Law (he did not come to abolish the law), but He is the end of the Law, He IS our law, we should be emulating Christ which in an essence - love. We love as He did, we love the Lord, we love others, while we're loving others and God, this is what keeps us from sin (NOT the law, but LOVE). How do we sin against another if we have Agape for the Lord and others? If we are humble and see others as more important as ourselves (which is what the Bible says to do), sin will be far from us.