Bible Study Bible & homosexual marriage

[evenifigoalone]

Haha, sorry Bible study mods...

 

[reba]

Haha, sorry Bible study mods...

All fixed thanks questdriven

 

[Kidron]

I think sex is about more than making babies,.

Well, yes.....however, as this Thread is about Homosexual Marriage <> Bible Says, then what we should do is try to just deal with that topic.
Perhaps the best way is to ID what God designates as the main reason sex was given to "man".
So, Genesis 1:28 defines the moral, normal, and the natural reason for SEX, when God says...."MULTIPLY".
So, as this is only possible when a man joins a woman, this exposes not only the immorality of the Homosexual lifestyle, but also eliminates any possibility that God will ever deem "Gay Marriage" as anything other then perverse and unnatural.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I think most of us here, and pretty much every Christian who reads The Scripture (and checks with tradition, if they still have doubts) can agree that sodomy is a sinful act and lifestyle and that same sex marriage is a sinful idea that runs counter to Christ's teaching and Christian tradition.

The problem is...the culture has changed and continues to change the church, especially the Protestant churches, especially (it seems) the old mainline denominations. I think its one thing when some church goers believe in gay marriage, but when a whole denomination turns gay affirming....that's a more serious problem.

And there's a bigger issue of what to do in a culture that is changing in such complex ways, so quickly. I personally like some of the changes, but some of them...frighten me. Christians are being pressured to renounce the "bigoted" Jesus of yesteryear and embrace a new Jesus. That's scary. Its also scary that now, in the name of "tolerance," the truth is sometimes controversial. Its not just with homosexuals, either. I'm liberal/progressive on many issues, but this subtle...I guess brain washing would be a good term....is disturbing. Plus, with everybody so hooked on various forms of media, it doesn't take much to change cultural norms, if you have the power to manipulate the media. And I don't think its always a "liberal media" thing, either...FOX "news" is very popular, very profitable.

I went off topic, lol.

 

[Kidron]

I think most of us here, and pretty much every Christian who reads The Scripture (and checks with tradition, if they still have doubts) can agree that sodomy is a sinful act and lifestyle and that same sex marriage is a sinful idea that runs counter to Christ's teaching and Christian tradition.

The problem is...the culture has changed and continues to change the church, especially the Protestant churches, especially (it seems) the old mainline denominations. I think its one thing when some church goers believe in gay marriage, but when a whole denomination turns gay affirming....that's a more serious problem.

And there's a bigger issue of what to do in a culture that is changing in such complex ways, so quickly. I personally like some of the changes, but some of them...frighten me. Christians are being pressured to renounce the "bigoted" Jesus of yesteryear and embrace a new Jesus. That's scary. Its also scary that now, in the name of "tolerance," the truth is sometimes controversial. Its not just with homosexuals, either. I'm liberal/progressive on many issues, but this subtle...I guess brain washing would be a good term....is disturbing. Plus, with everybody so hooked on various forms of media, it doesn't take much to change cultural norms, if you have the power to manipulate the media. And I don't think its always a "liberal media" thing, either...FOX "news" is very popular, very profitable.

I went off topic, lol.

You are right..
The secular part of our culture has disintegrated into a "i am Cait" loving mob who are happiest when "civil rights" replace morality or common sense.
The church, in its concern to be relevant and post advancing "Sunday school numbers" to prove it, has forgotten that tho the culture has changed, God and His Word have not.
So, back to the bible or back to the jungle.


K

 

[ezra]

Jesus is not a culture Jesus is Lord to many try to change Jesus . when the change starts in us in ward then out ward to many have it backwards outward then inward it starts in the heart our very inner being . so what was sin in the bible days new covenant days is still sin today

 

[jocor]

This contradicts what Paul said here:
1 Cor 10:23 “All things are lawful,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful,” but not all things build up.

It was NOT lawful for Paul to murder, steal, commit adultery or idolatry, etc. The context of 1 Cor 10:23 is eating meat sacrificed to idols.

If we are under Law, then yes, it would mean that we are sinning under the Law and breaking one of them, means we have broken them all, no one can live this way and succeed. Fortunately, this is not the case for Christians, and in fact, we should be viewing this that the standards we have are far above the Law given to the Isrealities! This should not be difficult to see, Christ said adultery is no longer sleeping with another, it is looking upon another with lustful eyes. Even the very thought of doing is a sin. The Holy Spirit was given to us so that we are able to do this! Take every thought captive to Christ! Walk as Christ walked! There are many versus which point us to this concept.

Messiah did NOT say "adultery is no longer sleeping with another." He was magnifying the Law by moving the boundaries of adultery. Yes, to look upon another with lust is adultery, but if we go beyond looking to actually having relations with another's spouse, it is most assuredly adultery. While we are instructed to take every thought captive, many fail to do so. They end up breaking the Law and are in need of confessing and repenting of their sin.

There is freedom, however because Christ is the end of the Law (he did not come to abolish the law), but He is the end of the Law, He IS our law, we should be emulating Christ which in an essence - love. We love as He did, we love the Lord, we love others, while we're loving others and God, this is what keeps us from sin (NOT the law, but LOVE). How do we sin against another if we have Agape for the Lord and others? If we are humble and see others as more important as ourselves (which is what the Bible says to do), sin will be far from us.

Messiah is NOT the "end of the Law." He is the "end of the Law for righteousness to everyone that believes." (Romans 10:4). We no longer seek righteousness through the Law, but through Messiah. Love is walked out by keeping the commandments.

If you love me, keep my commandments. (John 14:15)
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous. (1 John 5:3)
​

Perfect love will yield a sinless life, but who among us loves perfectly? None but Yeshua. When we fail to love, we break the commandment and sin.

 

[OzSpen]

No, I am not nullifying what Christ taught in Galatians 2. You asked me if I thought the OT law was "valid" for NT Christian believers. You did not ask me if I thought NT Christian believers are justified by the Law.

We are NOT justified by the Law. We are justified by faith. Obeying the laws of our Creator are the fruit of our justification, not the means to it.

We were imprisoned by the Law and were awaiting the death penalty because we broke the Law (sinned - 1 John 3:4). Messiah freed us from that prison and the death penalty. He did not make us free to break the very laws we broke that led to our imprisonment in the first place. He freed us and taught us to go and sin no more. How? By NOT breaking the Law. That is why the Holy Spirit through Paul said, "Do we then make void the Law through faith? God forbid! Yes, we establish the Law." (Romans 3:31)

So is this what you are advocating today for Christians: 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death' (Lev 20:10 NIV)?

 

[jocor]

So is this what you are advocating today for Christians: 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death' (Lev 20:10 NIV)?

You quoted my post #73. In post #74 I wrote, "Second, the Law is most assuredly still in effect, but its condemnation is not. Messiah Yeshua paid the penalty for our sin (death). The Law can no longer put us to death." However, while we do not stone adulterers today, that does not mean they won't face judgment later.

Heb 10:30 For we know Him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith YHWH. And again, YHWH shall judge his people.

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
​

 

[reba]

So is this what you are advocating today for Christians: 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death' (Lev 20:10 NIV)?

Might depend on who catches them..

 

[Abigail123]

It was NOT lawful for Paul to murder, steal, commit adultery or idolatry, etc. The context of 1 Cor 10:23 is eating meat sacrificed to idols.




Messiah did NOT say "adultery is no longer sleeping with another." He was magnifying the Law by moving the boundaries of adultery. Yes, to look upon another with lust is adultery, but if we go beyond looking to actually having relations with another's spouse, it is most assuredly adultery. While we are instructed to take every thought captive, many fail to do so. They end up breaking the Law and are in need of confessing and repenting of their sin.



Messiah is NOT the "end of the Law." He is the "end of the Law for righteousness to everyone that believes." (Romans 10:4). We no longer seek righteousness through the Law, but through Messiah. Love is walked out by keeping the commandments.

If you love me, keep my commandments. (John 14:15)
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous. (1 John 5:3)
​

Perfect love will yield a sinless life, but who among us loves perfectly? None but Yeshua. When we fail to love, we break the commandment and sin.

Love the Lord God and love your neighbor these are the commandments and by obeying these it's going to be pretty difficult to steal from your neighbor. Love is the point, not the OT law.

 

[OzSpen]

jocor,

The Mosaic Law was a covenant / treaty between God and his chosen people, Israel. It was not between God and Christians. It was not meant for all people for all time. See: 'Do Christians have to obey the Old Testament law?'

I know your perspective is incorrect because of Romans 10:4 (ESV), 'For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes'.

By the way, you quoted Heb 10:30 as saying, 'For we know Him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith YHWH. And again, YHWH shall judge his people'. The word, YHWH, is nowhere to be found in that verse. This is what it states in the Greek NT: 'οἴδαμεν γὰρ τὸν εἰπόντα· Ἐμοὶ ἐκδίκησις, ἐγὼ ἀνταποδώσω· καὶ πάλιν· Κρινεῖ κύριος τὸν λαὸν αὐτοῦ'. κύριος = Lord, who will judge.

Oz

You quoted my post #73. In post #74 I wrote, "Second, the Law is most assuredly still in effect, but its condemnation is not. Messiah Yeshua paid the penalty for our sin (death). The Law can no longer put us to death." However, while we do not stone adulterers today, that does not mean they won't face judgment later.

Heb 10:30 For we know Him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith YHWH. And again, YHWH shall judge his people.

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
​

 

[OzSpen]

Might depend on who catches them..

Really!

 

[OzSpen]

Love the Lord God and love your neighbor these are the commandments and by obeying these it's going to be pretty difficult to steal from your neighbor. Love is the point, not the OT law.

So is Heb 10:30 (ESV) not in your Bible? What about 1 Cor 6:9 (NIV)?

 

[jocor]

jocor,

The Mosaic Law was a covenant / treaty between God and his chosen people, Israel. It was not between God and Christians. It was not meant for all people for all time. See: 'Do Christians have to obey the Old Testament law?'

Torah was a part of the Sinai Covenant, NOT the covenant itself. It is important to understand the difference between a covenant and Torah. The Sinai Covenant is growing old and obsolete, but Torah remains for those under the New Covenant. The New Covenant is between YHWH and the houses of Israel and Judah (Jer 31:31). Do you belong to one of those houses? Do you not know that all Christians are part of Israel through being joined to Messiah Yeshua?

I know your perspective is incorrect because of Romans 10:4 (ESV), 'For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes'.

I addressed this in post #87.

By the way, you quoted Heb 10:30 as saying, 'For we know Him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith YHWH. And again, YHWH shall judge his people'. The word, YHWH, is nowhere to be found in that verse. This is what it states in the Greek NT: 'οἴδαμεν γὰρ τὸν εἰπόντα· Ἐμοὶ ἐκδίκησις, ἐγὼ ἀνταποδώσω· καὶ πάλιν· Κρινεῖ κύριος τὸν λαὸν αὐτοῦ'. κύριος = Lord, who will judge.

Oz

Hebrews 10:30 is referencing Deuteronomy 32:35-36 in which YHWH is the speaker and in which "YHWH" appears in the text. I did not substitute "YHWH" for "kurios". I restored "YHWH" where it should be in order to rightly understand the text. Our Greek copies substituted "kurios" in place of "YHWH". That causes confusion concerning which "lord" is referred to. Since Paul said there are many lords (1 Cor. 8:5), restoring "YHWH" identifies the exact being referred to.

 

[Abigail123]

So is Heb 10:30 (ESV) not in your Bible? What about 1 Cor 6:9 (NIV)?

Like I said, if you're loving your neighbor and loving God, it's difficult to sin against them. It's why Jesus said these were the 2 greatest commandments. Without love there is little else.

 

[Christ_empowered]

doesn't a lower case "g" in gods mean something besides deities?

 

[jocor]

Love the Lord God and love your neighbor these are the commandments and by obeying these it's going to be pretty difficult to steal from your neighbor. Love is the point, not the OT law.

Yes, it will be difficult to steal as long as we love, but if we fail to love, we may steal. That is where the law comes in. It tells us when we sin. If there is no law, we have no knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20b).

 

[Abigail123]

Yes, it will be difficult to steal as long as we love, but if we fail to love, we may steal. That is where the law comes in. It tells us when we sin. If there is no law, we have no knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20b).

Doing, under the law, without love, is just an action that even non-Christians are capable of doing.

So are these (non-christians) justified because they followed the law?

Agape is what sets us apart from the world - not following a list of things we should or shouldn't do.

 

[ezra]

this post i going south from the O.P . the debate is same sex marriage if a person is saved and will read what paul had to say about same sex relationships .there should be no debate among Christians is it ok. the key word is NO it is not alright. you either agree with the word of God or you don,t law no law n.t says it is wrong and a abomination.period this is exactly how the devil gets a foot in the door=======liberalism. its the same way with abortion as birth control it becomes murder.