Essential vs Nonessential

[eddif]

netchaplain,

You would have had a hard time convincing Charles Templeton (former associate of Billy Graham) of that.



'Pathetic preacher dies in unbelief'.

Hebrews 6:4-6 (ESV) confirms that apostasy is possible:

4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.​

Oz

The farther you are led by God the more impossible it is to retreat to just be a repenter.

If one just repents, and then falls away:
Just run back to repentance (looks a lot like OT Israel).

If one moves on to accept Jesus:
You may be a babe in Christ and need encouragement.

If one has been helped move into the Holy Spirit and eats the word sees gifts manifest:
If this person tries to go back to square one -not -
You will be crucifying Jesus anew. Won't work. Sorry try another route.

The beginner is able to practice John's baptism. The disciple who falls away (Judas example). Can moan all he wants, but hanging yourself is about the only option. Sound unloving? We have the body of Christ to help.

Examples in the bible provide answers at times (especially regarding Jesus - the word made flesh).

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[JLB]

This is a false accusation. It is possible for a Christian to commit apostasy and when that happens it is IMPOSSIBLE to restore them to repentance, so says Heb 6:4-6 (ESV):

4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.​

I suggest that you read accurately what I write.

Oz

Yes sir, this is what Hebrews 6 is teaching.

The book of Hebrews itself, is a theological masterpiece written to the Hebrews showing who Christ Jesus is from the Old Testament, to assure and reinforce to these Hebrews, Whom they are serving, so that in the time of persecution they would be assured, having confidence that they were suffering persecution, for serving the Lord Himself, and not some false messiah.

That they would remain faithful even unto death, and not fall away from the Lord. [Luke 8:13: Matthew 24:13]

Hebrews 1 gives the back ground... Jesus Christ is Lord. The Lord God.

8 But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

10 And:

“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands. [ A reference to YHWH, The Lord God]
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.”
Hebrews 1:8-12


Hebrews 2:

2 For if the word spoken through angels [referring to the Law] proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him...


Hebrews 3, sets the foundational context for what the writer goes on to say in Hebrews 6 as well as 10.

Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, 2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. 3 For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end...

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:1-6, 12-14

The Hebrews are warned they must "hold fast" the substance [Hebrews 11:1] they received when they heard the Gospel, steadfast to the end.

This is the same truth Jesus taught in the parable of the Sower, as well as what Paul taught the gentiles.

This is the context from which the writer, continues to warn the Hebrews in Chapter 6, with these words.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
Hebrews 6:4-8

Tasted of the heavenly gift, become partakers of the Holy Spirit, which clearly refers to the born again experience.

The Holy Spirit is given to those who are born again.


Then the parabolic imagery is used.

For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

....the earth which drinks in the rain... a reference to the believer receiving Holy Spirit.

...and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing... the believer producing good fruit.

.... but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned... the believer who has received the Holy Spirit, but bears bad fruit.


JLB

 

[netchaplain]

Free access to what they teach via public domain should not be the criterion to determine the quality of a commentator. R C H Lenski is a conservative Lutheran scholar who is one of the finest NT exegetes of the 20th century, but you will need a knowledge of Greek.

My reference to "free domain" was in relation to the inability to use them as examples without making a purchase.

 

[JLB]

[None of this metaphorical language suggests the “them” being a Christian. Quite the opposite really]

For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

....the earth which drinks in the rain... a reference to the believer receiving Holy Spirit.

...and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing... the believer producing good fruit.


The two conditions are given to verify what the writer is saying which can not be refuted, but only denied.

One group who "drinks in" the rain produces good things.

The other group who "drinks in" the same rain, produces bad things.

One is blessed, the other is burned.


JLB

 

[chessman]

....the earth which drinks in the rain... a reference to the believer receiving Holy Spirit.

Obviously your ... of the verse ignores the fact that this ground drinks in the rain that often comes upon it
versus the ground that merely tasted it once (didn't drink it in often).

The other group who "drinks in" the same rain, produces bad things.

The other group didn't "drink in the same rain often", they tasted it once and rejected the one time offer. Plain and simple.

 

[smaller]

Matthew 5:
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

God has His Principles. Of His rain, of His sun, of His Light.

Does the ground of any defiled produce only good? Never. It also produces evil. These are not "one way streets." The "ground" of all is internally, technically, defiled. That's all there is to this matter.

Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23 and Mark 5:28

The writer of Hebrews in chapter 6, deploys what are obviously allegorical terms, in the deployments of "ground" and of produce, both good and evil, shown by "green" living things and also by thorns and thistles. With no understandings, readers will be led to only see themselves on one side of the ledgers. That is not how it is to be read. Paul himself had a "thorn" in his own "ground," his flesh. Does Gods Light, does Gods Rain, get shed, and fall also on the wicked, in that ground? Assuredly so. Paul, by the Light of God, exposes it, as such:

2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Does this "thorn" take power from Gods Words? Again, assuredly so:

1 Corinthians 15:
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

When readers try to claim the produce of their own ground is only good, they are merely incognizant of the other side of the ledgers of scripture, and what Gods Words do with/to the wicked.

No ground produces only good. Sin dwells in the flesh. Evil is present with us, just as it was with Paul. Romans 7:17-21. The same Word has TWO opposing workings. One of those workings is EXPOSURE of sin/evil in the ground, the flesh, the body of mankind:

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

If we are not seeing our own flesh accurately, we're just not looking.

Galatians 5:
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

We know what comes out of the ground by fruit, the fruit Jesus looks for, from the first scripture above. But in those who produce little to no fruit, here is what we find in it's stead, in the ground:

Romans 3:16
Destruction and misery are in their ways:

 

[JLB]

Obviously your ... of the verse ignores the fact that this ground drinks in the rain that often comes upon it
versus the ground that merely tasted it once (didn't drink it in often).

For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it,...

I love it when the OSAS people expose their doctrine to the light of God's word.

How can anyone honestly come to the conclusion, that the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, somehow means it only tasted it once?

The Answer: They can't honestly come to the conclusion, that ...drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, means it only tasted it once.





JLB

 

[JLB]

The other group didn't "drink in the same rain often", they tasted it once and rejected the one time offer. Plain and simple.

For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
Hebrews 6:7-8

Both groups drank in the rain which often comes upon it:

• God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”

• One bears good things.
• One bears bad things.

• God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”

Bears good things from receiving the Holy Spirit = Blessing
Bears bad things from receiving the Holy Spirit = Burned


God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8


JLB

 

[chessman]

How can anyone honestly come to the conclusion, that the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, somehow means it only tasted it once?

I don't come to that conclusion. The issue is that the "them" in the passage (6:4-6) which needs exegesis obviously got the rain once, not often. I mean that's what the verse literally says.

For it is impossible concerning those who have once been enlightened,​

You even recognized that there are two different groups being discussed here.

One group who "drinks in" the rain produces good things.

The other group who "drinks in" the same rain, produces bad things.

It is True there are two groups. But the problem with your interpretation is, however, ignoring what else it says about this other group (the "them" of verse 4-6)
1) This other group didn't drink in the rain, they merely tasted it.
2) This other group got rained on once, not often.

It's very much like what you said about the rock example within the parable of the sower. Jesus literally said that the good soil was the one example that understood the word about the kingdom. Yet you said, no, that rock understood it as well. Quite contradictory, obviously.

 

[chessman]

I love it when the OSAS people expose their doctrine to the light of God's word.

Me too.

 

[chessman]

The other group who "drinks in" the same rain, produces bad things.

Are you aware that the word translated "drinks in" is NOT the same word that is translated "tasted"? In English or Greek, they are NOT they same word, nor do they have the same meaning.

 

[JLB]

Are you aware that the word translated "drinks in" is NOT the same word that is translated "tasted"? In English or Greek, they are NOT they same word, nor do they have the same meaning.

Thank you for proving my point.

They both drank in the rain that often came upon it.

Can you point out the phrase within this sentence that says... drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, that gives you idea of only tasted once?


JLB

 

[JLB]

I don't come to that conclusion. The issue is that the "them" in the passage (6:4-6) which needs exegesis obviously got the rain once, not often. I mean that's what the verse literally says.

For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
Hebrews 6:7-8

...drinks in the rain that often comes upon it.

Can not be refuted, but only denied.


JLB

 

[chessman]

They both drank in the rain that often came upon it.

The Text contradicts your statement. They both (both groups) did NOT drink in the rain. One group did drink in the rain, one group merely tasted it once.

4 For it is impossible concerning those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift,...​

Thus, your contradictory statement made above about the "them" specifically spoken of verse 4-6, once again.

 

[OzSpen]

I did read accurately what you wrote in the post. I even quoted it.
If you would have said:

then that's exegesis of Hebrews 6:4-6. Then it's simply a matter of exegesis of the rest of the passage to determine who "them" are that the author mentions that it is impossible to restore to repentance.

How you 'exegete' the "them" into being "Christian apostates" is NOT exegesis, however, but rather an example of the very definition of eisegesis. The passage never says the "them" are Christian apostates. But you do.

You seem to be reading that idea into the Text, versus reading the Text itself. Because the Text never calls "them" either Christians or apostates.

What it does say concerning the “them” in the passage is extensive and quite literally non-Christian, not Christian (a follower of Christ, re-born from above, indwelt with the Holy Spirit, etc.):

It says the “them” are Hebrew people who have:

1. once been enlightened by the Holy Spirit
   
   [The word “enlightened” simply means illuminated or to reveal or to make evident. It does NOT mean to become Christian. It does NOT say they have been re-born by the Holy Spirit or indwelt by the Holy Spirit in order to follow Christ. It simply means that the Holy Spirit once made Christ (the Messiah) evident to these particular Hebrews (“them”). Period, nothing more, nothing less.]
   
   
2. tasted the heavenly gift (the Holy Spirit)
   
   [Again, the word “tasted” does NOT say or mean they have been given the gift of Eternal Life or indwelled with the Holy Spirit or become a Christian, etc. Rather, the “them” have once received a taste of the heavenly gift of Holy Spirit and rejected Him (fell away, v6) from that one-time illumination (light of Christ/Messiah given to them by the Holy Spirit). Once again, this statement by the author in no way justifies assuming the “them” are Hebrews turned Christians. Do you think everybody that hears the Holy Spirit once does in fact yield to the Holy Spirit? Especially a Hebrew used to offering sacrifices over and over for their sins.]
   
   
3. sharers of the Holy Spirit
   
   [The Holy Spirit shared the message of Christ evidently with these particular Hebrews and they rejected Him, v6. How in the world that makes them a “Christian” (a follower of Christ) as you are claiming, I have no idea. It’s certainly not from exegesis of this verse.]
   
   
4. tasted the good word of God
   
   [Someone (a Hebrew in this case) must claim Jesus Christ (the good Word of God) as Lord to become a Christian (follower of Christ Jesus), not simply taste/experience Him. Lot’s of people come to a gathering of Christians (church) to “taste/experience” Jesus but lots of them walk away from that experience without accepting Jesus Christ as Lord.]
   
   
5. tasted the powers of the coming age
   
   
6. fallen away
   
   [This word “parapipto’ is NOT the same word as “apostate”. It simply and uniquely means what it says. To fall away/fall back, Para (close)-Pipto (fall). It’s literally the only time in the whole Bible the word is used. Therefore, its Biblical meaning must come from within this usage as there are no other examples of it being used to compare meanings. It’s a compounding of two words meaning in essence that they were close but fell. Indeed, they were close to becoming a Hebrew turned Christian, but fell short of it. They “fell back” into being a Hebrew believer and sacrificing bulls/goats over and over again versus accepting Jesus Christ’s one-time sacrifice. Though they were offered a taste of Christ by the Holy Spirit, they fell away from that offer. It does NOT mean they became a Christian (a follower of Christ) then un-became a Christian. Evidently you think it does mean that.]
   
   
7. crucified again for themselves the Son of God
   
   [Falling back into the Hebrew offerings of bulls/goats over and over is to hold Jesus in contempt i.e. to crucify Him again and again, etc. It most definitely is NOT to be a follower of Christ]
   
   
8. held him up to contempt
   
   [and notice that this is what they did (past tense) when they rejected the one-time enlightenment given “them” by the Holy Spirit]

Metaphorically stated of “them” (ground) that:

1. produces thorns and thistles
   
   
2. is worthless and near to a curse,
   
   
3. whose end is for burning

[None of this metaphorical language suggests the “them” being a Christian. Quite the opposite really]

In contrast to the other Hebrew people (ground) that:

1. drinks the rain that comes often upon it [versus once]
   
   
2. brings forth vegetation usable to those people for whose sake it is also cultivated [versus thorns/thistles]
   
   
3. shares a blessing from God [Versus worthless and near to a curse]
   
   
4. are dear friends and belonging to salvation. [versus whose end is for burning]

[Now these people sounds like people that belong to salvation to me [versus those that don’t].

chessman,

For it is impossible,... and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance (Heb 6:4-6 ESV).​

Heb 6:6 begins, 'If they then fall away'. 'Fall away' is the aorist tense of the verb parapiptw and appears only here in the NT. We can't fall away from something we didn't have. The bible of Greek lexicons (dictionaries), Arndt & Gingrich (Zondervan, 1957:626), gives the meaning of parapiptw as 'fall away, commit apostasy'.

Being aorist tense, it means to fall away once and for all. Because the verb uses the preposition para as its prefix, it means 'fell to the side' or to utterly fall away. This is not referring to some falling away from the faith into some sin or error. That would be very dangerous (like Peter's denial of Jesus) but the person who 'fell away', fell to the extent that 'it is impossible to restore again to repentance' (Heb. 6:4). Their state of falling away from salvation is so serious that their repentance cannot be renewed.

To restore to repentance means they had achieved repentance previously - what is needed to become Christian.

To state that these were not Christians does not do justice to the exegesis of the text. All of your justification falls flat before this evidence.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Yes sir, this is what Hebrews 6 is teaching.

The book of Hebrews itself, is a theological masterpiece written to the Hebrews showing who Christ Jesus is from the Old Testament, to assure and reinforce to these Hebrews, Whom they are serving, so that in the time of persecution they would be assured, having confidence that they were suffering persecution, for serving the Lord Himself, and not some false messiah.

That they would remain faithful even unto death, and not fall away from the Lord. [Luke 8:13: Matthew 24:13]

Hebrews 1 gives the back ground... Jesus Christ is Lord. The Lord God.

8 But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

10 And:

“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands. [ A reference to YHWH, The Lord God]
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.”
Hebrews 1:8-12


Hebrews 2:

2 For if the word spoken through angels [referring to the Law] proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him...


Hebrews 3, sets the foundational context for what the writer goes on to say in Hebrews 6 as well as 10.

Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, 2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. 3 For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end...

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:1-6, 12-14

The Hebrews are warned they must "hold fast" the substance [Hebrews 11:1] they received when they heard the Gospel, steadfast to the end.

This is the same truth Jesus taught in the parable of the Sower, as well as what Paul taught the gentiles.

This is the context from which the writer, continues to warn the Hebrews in Chapter 6, with these words.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
Hebrews 6:4-8

Tasted of the heavenly gift, become partakers of the Holy Spirit, which clearly refers to the born again experience.

The Holy Spirit is given to those who are born again.


Then the parabolic imagery is used.

For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

....the earth which drinks in the rain... a reference to the believer receiving Holy Spirit.

...and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing... the believer producing good fruit.

.... but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned... the believer who has received the Holy Spirit, but bears bad fruit.

JLB

JLB,

So are you confirming that Heb 6:4-6 (ESV) refers to those who were once Christian, fell away from the faith (committed apostasy), and cannot be restored to the repentance of salvation?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

My reference to "free domain" was in relation to the inability to use them as examples without making a purchase.

Anyone can quote pieces of a commentary as long as full credit is given (along with bibliographic reference). This is done often on CFnet.

 

[netchaplain]

Anyone can quote pieces of a commentary as long as full credit is given (along with bibliographic reference). This is done often on CFnet.

True, but what I'm referring to concerns well more that just brief quotes.

 

[OzSpen]

True, but what I'm referring to concerns well more that just brief quotes.

Why would you be wanting to, say, quote large chunks of commentary from D A Carson, Leon Morris, R C H Lenski, William Hendriksen & Simon Kistemaker, and other commentators?

 

[chessman]

Their state of falling away from salvation is so serious that their repentance cannot be renewed.

The Text doesn't say they fell away from salvation. You are simply assuming they had salvation to fall away from. That's an example of esiegesis.

To restore to repentance means they had achieved repentance previously - what is needed to become Christian.

There's more needed for salvation than repentence. The Hebrews repent all the time. Still do. And even more to the original point, there's more necessary to being a Christian (a Christ follower) than repentance.

2 Corinthians 7:10 (LEB) For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.

Matthew 3:11 (LEB) “As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
​

Repentance from sin is a necessary first step, sure, but it leads to salvation in Christ. It doesn't equate to it. The Hebrews repented of their sins each time they sacrificed. Their repentance is not the issue. They were and are quite good at repentance.

Because the verb uses the preposition para as its prefix, it means 'fell to the side' or to utterly fall away.

I know. What it does not mean, is to fall away from salvation thru Christ's sacrifice. You have to assume they were saved Christians because that Text doesn't say they were saved or were Christians. It precludes it in fact as they did not believe Christ's one-time sacrifice covered their sins. They went back to making their own sacrifices over and over.