What is SAVED?

[atpollard]

Just ask Lucifer if you don't believe me, or the angels who sinned during the days of Noah.

Did Lucifer have the Holy Spirit as a deposit guaranteeing the inheritance?
If God casts me into hell, then what sort of a guarantee was that?
Will God fail to complete his work in me and make Himself a liar?

See, my security is not based on my merit, but God's faithfulness
As I said, YOU may be able to lose your salvation (I have no way of knowing), but experience has shown that God is able to preserve mine.

 

[Nathan]

Wouldn't a third theological point be that Jesus died for whoever will believe on Him for eternal life? And those who believe recieve forgiveness?

 

[atpollard]

Can I ask you atpollard, are you a five point Calvinist?

Not by birth.
Four and a half.
I'm not sure about Limited atonement. It makes some sense, but seems a pretty pointless hair to split.

 

[GodsGrace]

Not by birth.
Four and a half.
I'm not sure about Limited atonement. It makes some sense, but seems a pretty pointless hair to split.

§Why?
If God picked whom He would save, the atonement would be limited to those God picked to be saved.
Right?

 

[atpollard]

Wouldn't a third theological point be that Jesus died for whoever will believe on Him for eternal life? And those who believe receive forgiveness?

How does that work with those that believe for a while, are saved for a while but end up in hell?

 

[atpollard]

§Why?
If God picked whom He would save, the atonement would be limited to those God picked to be saved.
Right?

What do you mean "IF"?

Romans 8:28-30 [NIV]
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ephesians 2:1-10 [NIV]
1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[fn] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Did God "foreknew", "predestined"?
Were you "dead in your trespasses and sins" when God "made us alive with Christ"?
Is the faith that saved you a gift from God?
God initiated all of these actions, so God picked whom he would save ... the only question is on what basis?
(and I will not attempt to answer that).

What do I care if God chooses to limit which sins he nails to the cross or limit which applies as grace to the sinner?
Yes, I think Limited Atonement makes more sense, but it is hardly a salvific issue or even one worth arguing over.

 

[GodsGrace]

What do you mean "IF"?

Romans 8:28-30 [NIV]
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ephesians 2:1-10 [NIV]
1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[fn] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Did God "foreknew", "predestined"?
Were you "dead in your trespasses and sins" when God "made us alive with Christ"?
Is the faith that saved you a gift from God?
God initiated all of these actions, so God picked whom he would save ... the only question is on what basis?
(and I will not attempt to answer that).

What do I care if God chooses to limit which sins he nails to the cross or limit which applies as grace to the sinner?
Yes, I think Limited Atonement makes more sense, but it is hardly a salvific issue or even one worth arguing over.

How is it not a salvific issue if Jesus died only for some???
What about everybody else.

And I'm not sure what those passages up there are supposed to mean.
Could you tell me?

Sometimes persons don't post what they're really thinking...
I don't mean that you did - I just need clarification.

 

[GodsGrace]

What do you mean "IF"?

Romans 8:28-30 [NIV]
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ephesians 2:1-10 [NIV]
1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[fn] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Did God "foreknew", "predestined"?
Were you "dead in your trespasses and sins" when God "made us alive with Christ"?
Is the faith that saved you a gift from God?
God initiated all of these actions, so God picked whom he would save ... the only question is on what basis?
(and I will not attempt to answer that).

What do I care if God chooses to limit which sins he nails to the cross or limit which applies as grace to the sinner?
Yes, I think Limited Atonement makes more sense, but it is hardly a salvific issue or even one worth arguing over.

IOW
You're refuting my word IF.
Which means that God DID pick whom He would choose.

I just don't understand how those passages prove this...

 

[Nathan]

How does that work with those that believe for a while, are saved for a while but end up in hell?

The Bible says they choose to disregard, aka not accept, the payment for their sins. The way I see it, as long as a person sins they need payment for it. The Bible says that Jesus sacrifice covers all the sins of those who believe. So if you choose to not believe Jesus paid for your sins, then I don't see how you can accept the gift God gives to those who's sins are forgiven.

It goes back to the definition of saved. Since being saved comes from belief, it is simple logic that states those who choose not to believe will not be saved. That's what I keep reading in the Bible at least.

Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Romans 10:9 - because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Paul asks a good question;

Romans 10:14 - How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?

Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?”

Paul says they have not all obeyed the gospel. If your predestined to believe, then how can some not believe? Wouldn't God make them believe?

 

[Nathan]

1 Corinthians 15:2 - and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

Who is Paul speaking to? Being saved? Isn't it a done deal if your predestined? Why would they have to hold fast? Believed in vain?

 

[atpollard]

IOW
You're refuting my word IF.
Which means that God DID pick whom He would choose.

I just don't understand how those passages prove this...

Look at Romans 8:29. If God issued a general call to all and chose none (the hearers choose to believe or not believe based 100% on their free will), then what does it mean "For those God foreknew he also predestined ..."?
Predestined for what IF God had nothing to do with choosing?

 

[atpollard]

The Bible says they choose to disregard, aka not accept, the payment for their sins. The way I see it, as long as a person sins they need payment for it. The Bible says that Jesus sacrifice covers all the sins of those who believe. So if you choose to not believe Jesus paid for your sins, then I don't see how you can accept the gift God gives to those who's sins are forgiven.

Now it is my turn to be confused.
Were all sins of every person nailed to the cross with Jesus (Unlimited Atonement)?

 

[atpollard]

Who is Paul speaking to? Being saved? Isn't it a done deal if your predestined? Why would they have to hold fast? Believed in vain?

Look, I didn't create the word "predestined" out of thin air. Read Romans 8:29 and take your complaint up with the author.

 

[atpollard]

It goes back to the definition of saved. Since being saved comes from belief,

Romans 10:9-10 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Agrees in general with that, however ...

Ephesians 2:1-10
1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Indicates that it is actually GOD who does most of the work (starting while we were dead and all).
Yay God.

 

[atpollard]

How is it not a salvific issue if Jesus died only for some???
What about everybody else.

My understanding, or lack of understanding, will affect the salvation of no one ... not even mine.
If I can prove to Jesus from logic and scripture that He died for no one, it will not change the reality that Jesus died for whomever he died and does not answer to me.

 

[Nathan]

Romans 10:9-10 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Agrees in general with that, however ...

Ephesians 2:1-10
1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Indicates that it is actually GOD who does most of the work (starting while we were dead and all).
Yay God.

Most of all the work?

 

[Nathan]

Now it is my turn to be confused.
Were all sins of every person nailed to the cross with Jesus (Unlimited Atonement)?

For all who believe in Jesus the Christ. Look at it from the perspective of who He is and what it represents.

God demands a sacrifice for sin. Before Christ animals were sacrificed(although they never truly covered sin). One persons sacrifice was not imputed to another's. But it did not negate the offering of the one giving it.

Jesus sacrifice was perfect, and therefore covered all who will believe He was the only perfect sacrifice.

We know not all will believe. Therefore the sacrifice cannot be imputed to them. If one walks away from that sacrifice, what then remains for the sins they continue to commit?

He continues to make intercession for us, directly to the Father. How can He continue that for the one who walks away - saying they no longer need/want it?

 

[atpollard]

For all who believe in Jesus the Christ. Look at it from the perspective of who He is and what it represents.

God demands a sacrifice for sin. Before Christ animals were sacrificed(although they never truly covered sin). One persons sacrifice was not imputed to another's. But it did not negate the offering of the one giving it.

Jesus sacrifice was perfect, and therefore covered all who will believe He was the only perfect sacrifice.

We know not all will believe. Therefore the sacrifice cannot be imputed to them. If one walks away from that sacrifice, what then remains for the sins they continue to commit?

He continues to make intercession for us, directly to the Father. How can He continue that for the one who walks away - saying they no longer need/want it?

So those sins that I commit while I still believe are forgiven (imputed righteousness through the work of the cross) but the sins that I commit after I walk away are not covered by the Blood of the Cross. Is that what you are saying?

 

[atpollard]

Most of all the work?

It depends on the definition of work. I put on shorts and climbed into the water and held my nose (God didn't do that part) so is that work?

God did most of the work, and God did ALL of the work essential for salvation.

 

[Nathan]

So those sins that I commit while I still believe are forgiven (imputed righteousness through the work of the cross) but the sins that I commit after I walk away are not covered by the Blood of the Cross. Is that what you are saying?

That's exactly what I'm saying. If you are separated from the perfect sacrifice, the only sacrifice God accepts for sin, then there remains no propitiation for sin.