atpollard
Member
Yes I am a 5 point Calvinist and Yes God does say that He will save whom He will save. (John 6:44) (Exodus 33:19)
I would expect nothing less.
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Bible Study Predestination and Election in the Bible
- Thread starter Nathan
- Start date
Nathan
Member
I'm on track so far. I see what you say about the underlined point. It could definitely be viewed from different angles to mean different things. It would raise a question, but it's a question better suited to a different topic.
Nathan
Member
It's interesting though, he went into the prayer thinking he wasn't. It's a must for a person to understand they are a sinner when receiving faith.
But it's also a must for a person to understand they are not one in Christ - IF they are going to walk in the fullness of Christ.
We were all sinners, who were saved by grace.
26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. Hebrews 7:26-27
Now that we are saved, we are no longer sinners, whom Christ is seperated from, but rather we are joined ti Him, and are one spirit with Him.
But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17
JLB
Nathan
Member
Another way to look at it is in the Old Testament the 'sinner' was called wicked, while the 'saved' was called righteous.
One of the major reasons the Pharisee's had such a problem with Jesus. He told them plainly, He did not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance. The righteous have no need of repentance because they already have done so.
One of the major reasons the Pharisee's had such a problem with Jesus. He told them plainly, He did not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance. The righteous have no need of repentance because they already have done so.
Nathan
Member
atpollard , Is this the website to view all of the theology on?
https://www.crcna.org/welcome/beliefs/confessions/heidelberg-catechism
It's interesting to say the least. Not the typical 5 points of Calvinism I have alway read about. Unless there is something 'hidden' in there I could not see?
I didn't see any specific reference to "predestination and election". A lot of the questions address it in a way. But it seems to me, what I read, that they do believe in the persons reception of faith in the way I read in the Bible.
I wonder if people look too hard to find errors instead of what people believe. Like the exact opposite of not seeing the forest through the trees, some might not see the trees through the branches.
https://www.crcna.org/welcome/beliefs/confessions/heidelberg-catechism
It's interesting to say the least. Not the typical 5 points of Calvinism I have alway read about. Unless there is something 'hidden' in there I could not see?
I didn't see any specific reference to "predestination and election". A lot of the questions address it in a way. But it seems to me, what I read, that they do believe in the persons reception of faith in the way I read in the Bible.
I wonder if people look too hard to find errors instead of what people believe. Like the exact opposite of not seeing the forest through the trees, some might not see the trees through the branches.
atpollard
Member
atpollard , Is this the website to view all of the theology on?
https://www.crcna.org/welcome/beliefs/confessions/heidelberg-catechism
It's interesting to say the least. Not the typical 5 points of Calvinism I have alway read about. Unless there is something 'hidden' in there I could not see?
I didn't see any specific reference to "predestination and election". A lot of the questions address it in a way. But it seems to me, what I read, that they do believe in the persons reception of faith in the way I read in the Bible.
I wonder if people look too hard to find errors instead of what people believe. Like the exact opposite of not seeing the forest through the trees, some might not see the trees through the branches.
The Heidelberg Catechism is the oldest and one of the most "normal people" friendly. It was written at a time when the goal was to allow everyone to read and study the bible in their own language for themselves. While this statement will probably get me in some trouble, professional theologians hadn't really had a chance to start fighting about the gnats that needed to be strained.
The other end, the detailed work written for dueling seminaries is the Westminster Confession of Faith
You may find some of what you were expecting here, but you will still probably not find what you have 'heard' Calvinists believe.
Here is a sample that may be relevant:
Chapter V
Providence
I. The God the great Creator of all things does uphold,[1] direct, dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things,[2]from the greatest even to the least,[3] by His most wise and holy providence,[4] according to His infallible foreknowledge,[5] and the free and immutable counsel of His own will,[6] to the praise of the glory of His wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy.[7]
II. Although, in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first Cause, all things come to pass immutably, and infallibly;[8] yet, by the same providence, He orders them to fall out, according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.[9]
III. God, in His ordinary providence, makes use of means,[10] yet is free to work without,[11] above,[12] and against them,[13] at His pleasure.
IV. The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God so far manifest themselves in His providence, that it extends itself even to the first fall, and all other sins of angels and men;[14] and that not by a bare permission,[15] but such as has joined with it a most wise and powerful bounding,[16] and otherwise ordering, and governing of them, in a manifold dispensation, to His own holy ends;[17] yet so, as the sinfulness thereof proceeds only from the creature, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin.[18]
V. The most wise, righteous, and gracious God does oftentimes leave, for a season, His own children to manifold temptations, and the corruption of their own hearts, to chastise them for their former sins, or to discover unto them the hidden strength of corruption and deceitfulness of their hearts, that they may be humbled;[19] and, to raise them to a more close and constant dependence for their support upon Himself, and to make them more watchful against all future occasions of sin, and for sundry other just and holy ends.[20]
VI. As for those wicked and ungodly men whom God, as a righteous Judge, for former sins, does blind and harden,[21]from them He not only withholds His grace whereby they might have been enlightened in their understandings, and wrought upon in their hearts;[22] but sometimes also withdraws the gifts which they had,[23] and exposes them to such objects as their corruption makes occasion of sin;[24] and, withal, gives them over to their own lusts, the temptations of the world, and the power of Satan,[25] whereby it comes to pass that they harden themselves, even under those means which God uses for the softening of others.[26]
VII. As the providence of God does, in general, reach to all creatures; so, after a most special manner, it takes care of His Church, and disposes all things to the good thereof.[27]
Can you see why I prefer the Heidelberg Catechism over the Westminster Confession of Faith for a little light reading? Theologians have to make everything hard to understand.
Nathan
Member
The Heidelberg Catechism is the oldest and one of the most "normal people" friendly. It was written at a time when the goal was to allow everyone to read and study the bible in their own language for themselves. While this statement will probably get me in some trouble, professional theologians hadn't really had a chance to start fighting about the gnats that needed to be strained.
The other end, the detailed work written for dueling seminaries is the Westminster Confession of Faith
You may find some of what you were expecting here, but you will still probably not find what you have 'heard' Calvinists believe.
Here is a sample that may be relevant:
Chapter V
Providence
I. The God the great Creator of all things does uphold,[1] direct, dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things,[2]from the greatest even to the least,[3] by His most wise and holy providence,[4] according to His infallible foreknowledge,[5] and the free and immutable counsel of His own will,[6] to the praise of the glory of His wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy.[7]
II. Although, in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first Cause, all things come to pass immutably, and infallibly;[8] yet, by the same providence, He orders them to fall out, according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.[9]
III. God, in His ordinary providence, makes use of means,[10] yet is free to work without,[11] above,[12] and against them,[13] at His pleasure.
IV. The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God so far manifest themselves in His providence, that it extends itself even to the first fall, and all other sins of angels and men;[14] and that not by a bare permission,[15] but such as has joined with it a most wise and powerful bounding,[16] and otherwise ordering, and governing of them, in a manifold dispensation, to His own holy ends;[17] yet so, as the sinfulness thereof proceeds only from the creature, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin.[18]
V. The most wise, righteous, and gracious God does oftentimes leave, for a season, His own children to manifold temptations, and the corruption of their own hearts, to chastise them for their former sins, or to discover unto them the hidden strength of corruption and deceitfulness of their hearts, that they may be humbled;[19] and, to raise them to a more close and constant dependence for their support upon Himself, and to make them more watchful against all future occasions of sin, and for sundry other just and holy ends.[20]
VI. As for those wicked and ungodly men whom God, as a righteous Judge, for former sins, does blind and harden,[21]from them He not only withholds His grace whereby they might have been enlightened in their understandings, and wrought upon in their hearts;[22] but sometimes also withdraws the gifts which they had,[23] and exposes them to such objects as their corruption makes occasion of sin;[24] and, withal, gives them over to their own lusts, the temptations of the world, and the power of Satan,[25] whereby it comes to pass that they harden themselves, even under those means which God uses for the softening of others.[26]
VII. As the providence of God does, in general, reach to all creatures; so, after a most special manner, it takes care of His Church, and disposes all things to the good thereof.[27]
Can you see why I prefer the Heidelberg Catechism over the Westminster Confession of Faith for a little light reading? Theologians have to make everything hard to understand.
I do see. I can see where some of the above could be misinterpreted also, but one of the very first statements puts the rest into perspective;
That statement debunks what the original quote from MacArthur stated. That the things we see God do, or don't do, isn't because of His foreknowledge. I believe the above statement is correct.
atpollard
Member
Here is the WCF Chapter X: Of Effectual Calling
I. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased, in His appointed time, effectually to call,[1] by His Word and Spirit,[2] out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ;[3] enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God,[4] taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh;[5] renewing their wills, and, by His almighty power, determining them to that which is good,[6] and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ:[7] yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.[8]
II. This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man,[9] who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit,[10] he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.[11]
III. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit,[12] who works when, and where, and how He pleases:[13] so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.[14]
IV. Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word,[15] and may have some common operations of the Spirit,[16] yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved:[17] much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the laws of that religion they do profess.[18] And to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested.[19]
I. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased, in His appointed time, effectually to call,[1] by His Word and Spirit,[2] out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ;[3] enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God,[4] taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh;[5] renewing their wills, and, by His almighty power, determining them to that which is good,[6] and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ:[7] yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.[8]
II. This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man,[9] who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit,[10] he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.[11]
III. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit,[12] who works when, and where, and how He pleases:[13] so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.[14]
IV. Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word,[15] and may have some common operations of the Spirit,[16] yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved:[17] much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the laws of that religion they do profess.[18] And to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested.[19]
Nathan
Member
Well there it is. I have to say I dug into the other website to see if there was anything hidden, but I could not see anything. But now I do see where the MacArthur quote comes from.
What seems so blaringly weird is how in one article they attribute Gods foreknowledge to His actions, then turn around and follow it up with His actions not being apart of His foreknowledge. Very conradicting.
The last point (IV), in your last post, is very interesting. How can one share in the operating of the Spirit without having the Spirit? There is a lot of things said in that particular section that seem very odd.
What seems so blaringly weird is how in one article they attribute Gods foreknowledge to His actions, then turn around and follow it up with His actions not being apart of His foreknowledge. Very conradicting.
The last point (IV), in your last post, is very interesting. How can one share in the operating of the Spirit without having the Spirit? There is a lot of things said in that particular section that seem very odd.
Nathan
Member
Another thing I must point out is that I really thought you indicated it was the power of satan, and nothing to do with God, why some will not receive election.
According to the last post, it is most definitely God, who does not please, to call some. Satan does not have more power than God, therefore he cannot over rule God. The article plainly says God withholds the call of the Gospel from those He has not predestined. I'm 'guessing' that Calvinists get the use of satan in this mixed up with the power of God.
But at least we now have some passages to examine why Calvinist predestination and election is thought of as such. They seem to list all the passages they feel deal with each statement. That does help to understand why they believe the way they do.
According to the last post, it is most definitely God, who does not please, to call some. Satan does not have more power than God, therefore he cannot over rule God. The article plainly says God withholds the call of the Gospel from those He has not predestined. I'm 'guessing' that Calvinists get the use of satan in this mixed up with the power of God.
But at least we now have some passages to examine why Calvinist predestination and election is thought of as such. They seem to list all the passages they feel deal with each statement. That does help to understand why they believe the way they do.
Nathan
Member
Unless, I just thought of this, their previous article is meant to extend to the Chapter X, and Gods foreknowledge is indeed what governs His predestination and election(which I believe). Then when they break it down, in article 1, they mean it's not because of the foreseen works of man He calls them.
I could see that. Because none of the works of man should be in anyway a condition of salvation. Only faith.
I could see that. Because none of the works of man should be in anyway a condition of salvation. Only faith.
Nathan
Member
I think it's just a matter of perspective and word definition.
A sinner in the Bible is one who continually, willfully, wants to do sin and finds no reason to stop. That is what is a sinner.
Believers cannot willfully, continually, desire to sin and find no reason to stop.
Yes I quoted that scripture myself, earlier.
We may choose to practice the desires of the Spirit within, or to practice the desires of the flesh.
The older more mature we become, as we grow up into Him, the better we should become at yielding to the Spirit and be led by the Spirit of God.
Paul said it this way -
When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 1 Corinthians 13:11
If we are walking in love, we just don't want to do harmful things to hurt anyone or grieve our Lord we love so much.
That is why love is the key to eternal life: Faith expressing itself by love.
That is why, turning a brother who has wandered from the truth, back from his ways which led to death, is an act of love. Love covers a multitude of sins.
If we should sin, then we confess our sin and turn away from it and learn to be healed from our iniquities.
Like the example I gave from the doctor... if we put a band-aid or pull a splinter from a person, that doesn't make us a doctor.
- A doctor is someone who practices medicine.
- A sinner is someone who practices sin.
It's up to the Lord who see's and determine's our level of maturity, and how much we have been given, and the motives and intents of our heart, to know to what degree we need to be corrected, if we can be corrected.
Here is an extreme example:
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1 Corinthians 5:1-5
The Lord always wanting us to repent and turn back to Him, so that in the day of the Lord Jesus we will not hear these awful words:
‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41
As I have said many times, these to whom He said these words, were His people; His servant's: not the world.
JLB
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:6-10
Walking in the light, walking in the truth, walking in the Spirit, walking with God, are vital things that we must learn to practice.
These things are developed and require that we set ourselves in a course of action that is contrary to what our sinful flesh desires to do.
We are instructed in this righteous lifestyle from His word.
His word instructs us in the way of righteousness.
Here is an example:
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
2 Peter 1:1-9
- giving all diligence...
People who set themselves on a deliberate course to do these things, by God's grace and power, understand...
They understand that this is believing the Lord.
They understand that repent for the kingdom of God is at hand, is their new lifestyle.
Which is why Jesus taught us these remarkable words.
But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.” Matthew 13:23
JLB
http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...eeks-daniel-9-24-27.51705/page-14#post-884592
http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...not-by-faith-alone.57742/page-10#post-1055739
http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/is-hell-forever.55539/page-6#post-981867
http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...-tool-of-deception.60933/page-13#post-1117744
http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...not-by-faith-alone.57742/page-10#post-1055739
http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/is-hell-forever.55539/page-6#post-981867
http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...-tool-of-deception.60933/page-13#post-1117744