Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[chessman]

But I'm sure you'll be able to think of some way to make it appear that a life never ending in and of itself has practical value. Brace yourself, folks.

Hebrews 13:20-21 (NASB) Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord, equip you in every good thing to do His will, working in us that which is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen. ​

Islam teaches Jesus was a great man and prophet. They miss His eternal nature though.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hebrews 13:20-21 (NASB) Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord, equip you in every good thing to do His will, working in us that which is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen. ​

Islam teaches Jesus was a great man and prophet. They miss His eternal nature though.

The fact alone that THE BELIEVER has a life that will never end in and of itself has no practical value. It is the quality of the life that never ends that has practical value to the believer.

 

[chessman]

The fact alone that THE BELIEVER has a life that will never end in and of itself has no practical value.

Really?

The blood of the "eternal covenant" equips believers in Christ to do His will in "every good thing". The temporary blood of bulls and goats, equipped old covenant believers to do His will in yearly rituals.

Hebrews 13:20-21 (NASB) Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord, equip you in every good thing to do His will, working in us that which is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen. ​

Hebrews 9:13-14 (NASB) For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a young cow sprinkled on those who are defiled sanctify them for the ritual purity of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works to serve the living God? ​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Really?

The blood of the "eternal covenant" equips believers in Christ to do His will in "every good thing". The temporary blood of bulls and goats, equipped old covenant believers to do His will in yearly rituals.

Hebrews 13:20-21 (NASB) Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord, equip you in every good thing to do His will, working in us that which is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen. ​

Hebrews 9:13-14 (NASB) For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a young cow sprinkled on those who are defiled sanctify them for the ritual purity of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works to serve the living God? ​

Thank God that CHRIST lives forever on behalf of the believer. We get that.

But the fact that YOU AND I will live forever has no intrinsic value IN AND OF ITSELF toward successful living for Christ.
Even if one argues that knowing we will live forever with Christ gives one joy and encouragement, it's still the joy and encouragement that has the value toward persevering to the end, not the fact itself that life never ends.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Interesting. I see where God has to call to a person before they can believe, and that, just like Pharaoh, a constant rejection of His call will harden a persons heart to the call - to the point where they cannot believe. This is true for believer and unbeliever alike.

John 6:44 - No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

The way this happens is: (Rom. 10:1-21) Prayerfully study this, then go to (Luke 24:13-32) This is an example of how God draws a man, but man has to respond to the word or calling.

 

[chessman]

But the fact that YOU AND I will live forever has no intrinsic value IN AND OF ITSELF toward successful living for Christ.
Even if one argues that knowing we will live forever with Christ gives one joy and encouragement, it's still the joy and encouragement that has the value toward persevering to the end, not the fact itself that life never ends.

Paul says otherwise:

Philippians 1:20 (NASB) according to my earnest expectation and hope, that I will not be put to shame in anything, but that with all boldness, Christ will even now, as always, be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. ​

Because Christ is eternal, Paul is eternal.
Because Paul is eternal he will not be put to shame even by his death.

If Paul were not eternal, he would not be exhalting Christ always.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Paul says otherwise:

Philippians 1:20 (NASB) according to my earnest expectation and hope, that I will not be put to shame in anything, but that with all boldness, Christ will even now, as always, be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. ​

Because Christ is eternal, Paul is eternal.
Because Paul is eternal he will not be put to shame even by his death.

If Paul were not eternal, he would not be exhalting Christ always.

Your contentiousness is extremely annoying.

 

[JLB]

Paul says otherwise:

Philippians 1:20 (NASB) according to my earnest expectation and hope, that I will not be put to shame in anything, but that with all boldness, Christ will even now, as always, be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. ​

Because Christ is eternal, Paul is eternal.
Because Paul is eternal he will not be put to shame even by his death.

If Paul were not eternal, he would not be exhalting Christ always.

15 Some indeed preach Christ even from envy and strife, and some also from goodwill: 16 The former preach Christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my chains; 17 but the latter out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel. 18 What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice.
19 For I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayer and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, 20 according to my earnest expectation and hope that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ will be magnified in my body, whether by life or by death. 21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Philippians 1:15-23


Paul will not be put to shame by those who preach Christ from envy and strife, by those who preach from selfish ambition, supposing to add affliction to his imprisonment.

... "as always", is a reference to how Paul was both living his life, and had lived his life to glorify Christ.

These verse's have nothing to do with Paul "being eternal", nor being put to shame by his death.

Whether Paul lives or dies, his life was spent exalting and glorifying Christ.



JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

Thank God that CHRIST lives forever on behalf of the believer. We get that.

But the fact that YOU AND I will live forever has no intrinsic value IN AND OF ITSELF toward successful living for Christ.
Even if one argues that knowing we will live forever with Christ gives one joy and encouragement, it's still the joy and encouragement that has the value toward persevering to the end, not the fact itself that life never ends.

What do you mean by "Successful living in CHrist"?
Please explain.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

The fact alone that THE BELIEVER has a life that will never end in and of itself has no practical value. It is the quality of the life that never ends that has practical value to the believer.

The quality of that life is that the believer will "partake of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4) by being "one flesh" with Christ .(Eph 5:31)
As to the particulars, well ....

1Co 2:9 But as it is written: “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

iakov the fool

 

[chessman]

Your contentiousness is extremely annoying.

Being extremely annoyed is overcome by bearing the fruit of peace.

Galatians 5:22-23 (NASB) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. ​

 

[JohnDB]

• Above all, focus on the issue being debated. Do not direct your comments toward the member and make the discussion personal if you disagree with what's been said.

• Original posts should reference specific scripture and what it is the member wants to say or ask about that scripture.

 

[chessman]

Paul will not be put to shame by those who preach Christ from envy and strife, by those who preach from selfish ambition, supposing to add affliction to his imprisonment.

I didn't say he would be put to shame by those preaching pretentiously with envy and strife. He rejoices in the preaching of Christ even by those who do it with wrong motives.

Philippians 1:18 (NASB) What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in this I rejoice. Yes, and I will rejoice, ​

"as always", is a reference to how Paul was both living his life, and had lived his life to glorify Christ.

AND is living His eternal life right now exalting and glorifying Christ! Even after his body dies, his soul is exalting Christ. That's my point.

Whether Paul lives or dies, his life was spent exalting and glorifying Christ.

And in his eternal life right now, he is exalting and glorifying Christ. Him and the believing theif beside Him that died in Him yet spent that same night with Him.

 

[JLB]

I didn't say he would be put to shame by those preaching pretentiously with envy and strife.

I know you didn't.

You said - Because Paul is eternal he will not be put to shame even by his death.

AND is living His eternal life right now exalting and glorifying Christ! Even after his body dies, his soul is exalting Christ. That's my point.

That may be true, but that is not what Paul is saying in the scripture you quoted.

If Paul were not eternal, he would not be exhalting Christ always.

... "as always", is a reference to how Paul was both living his life [at the time he wrote Philippians], and had lived his life to glorify Christ.

Paul was imprisoned [in chains], and was making the point that he was both at the time he was in chains, or not, as always was glorifying Christ.

Paul was saying he would not be put to shame by those who preach Christ from envy and strife, because they preach from selfish ambition, supposing to add affliction to his imprisonment.





JLB

 

[JLB]

The blood of the "eternal covenant" equips believers in Christ to do His will in "every good thing". The temporary blood of bulls and goats, equipped old covenant believers to do His will in yearly rituals.

20 Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen. Hebrews 13:20-21

Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep equip you in every good thing to do His will, working in us that which is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen. Hebrews 13:20-21 NASB




This scripture doesn't say, the "blood of the eternal covenant" equips believers to do His will.

It says God who raised Jesus from the dead, equip you in every good thing to do His will, working in us that which is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ...



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What do you mean by "Successful living in CHrist"?
Please explain.

iakov the fool

This is what the successful Christian life looks like:

"the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,23gentleness, self-control" (Galatians 5:22-23 NASB)

As to the particulars, well ....

In this life?
Here's the particulars of what eternal life is to look like for us now:
"love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,23gentleness, self-control" (Galatians 5:22-23 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The quality of that life is that the believer will "partake of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4) by being "one flesh" with Christ .(Eph 5:31)

But so many people in the church seem to have gone no further than simply knowing they're saved.
As to actually living in, and experiencing, and partaking of God? I don't see it much.

 

[Douglas Summers]

2 PE 2:20-22 For IF, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

Hi Jim,The way I understand Scripture is that, Once they have been given the knowledge of how to escape condemnation by the knowledge and purpose of Christ, and they instead choose to keep their former state instead of the righteousness of the Gospel. They are worse off by knowing the truth, but deciding they would rather live under the desires of the flesh. Having a worse punishment because they refused the Gospel of God in Jesus Christ. They were never saved, just a witnessed to salvation. Even as it is today.

 

[Nathan]

Hi Jim,The way I understand Scripture is that, Once they have been given the knowledge of how to escape condemnation by the knowledge and purpose of Christ, and they instead choose to keep their former state instead of the righteousness of the Gospel. They are worse off by knowing the truth, but deciding they would rather live under the desires of the flesh. Having a worse punishment because they refused the Gospel of God in Jesus Christ. They were never saved, just a witnessed to salvation. Even as it is today.

If you look at the passage it states they have escaped, not just thought about it or understood it's possible.

 

[Nathan]

Interesting point of view considering Paul says we have died to sin and therefore tells us we also walk in the newness of life.

Romans 6:2b (NASB) How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
Romans 6:4 (NASB) Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
​

Are you aware of any Scripture that tells us we should consider ourselves something we are not? (Not rhetorical question)

Wouldn't it seem hypocritical for us to consider ourselves something we are not?


Good point! I agree.

It's going to take me a while to catch up from being gone the last few days, but I do wish to continue.

There is never anything we should consider ourselves if we are not in that position already. That's just it though. We have to consider it because it is not natural, and won't be, till it is complete. It is a work God is doing in us.

The typology Paul uses is to the point. Baptism is not a super secret special mystical thing that is mysterious. It's a real thing that is quite simple. It was given to use(water baptism) as a way for us to understand the things of God.

Just like with water baptism, a believer has to choose because there is a choice. That's the point. Because we have to consider means there is a choice we need to make.

Water baptism was given to us to help us understand this choice and understand out position in Him. Peter let's us understand this in 1 Peter 3:21.

Peter used the analogy of Noah. He knew the flood was coming and built the ark. Not only that, he went into the ark. On top of that, he stayed in the ark. This is the point. He had these choices to make when these things were taking place. He made the right choices.

God did not make Noah a floating ark, as in, Noah had to be inside that floating vessel. Claiming that we are 'made' eternal, other than the eternal life that comes from being in Christ, is like claiming Noah could have jumped ship and been fine swimming in the water. I'm positive if Noah would have jumped out he would have died.