"Believe" in the present tense

[Nathan]

I agree.There is also the 'evil' or human good aspect of apostasy also. And that is where the majority of us fail most often.

Do not quench the Spirit.1 Thess 5:19.

The majority of us are out doing 'good' on our own and not through the power of the Spirit. We make our own set of rules,we set our own subjective levels of good enough........and try our darn best to do enough to please God. This is a form of apostasy. Relying on ourselves and our best efforts all the while denying the true Faith.....which is Trust in The Lord Jesus Christs finished work.

Many, Many believers live in apostasy and have pretty much cleaned up their overt sins. They spend their whole lives quenching the Spirit with their white knuckle best efforts to please Him from their flesh.

But as you say......if they have ever trusted in Christ alone. They are sealed, it was a done deal when they believed. Eph 4:30.

Satans ace trump is religion. And religion has man working for salvation or maintaining salvation. Many follow doctrines of demons after they are saved. They are just following demons who are ACTING as the light.

2 Cor 11:15~~New American Standard Bible
Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.

Actually, satans winning hand is to draw people away from Christ - whether by religion or by lawlessness.

2Pe 2:1-3
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

2Pe 2:12-19
But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction, suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, while they feast with you. They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children! Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing, but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.

These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved. For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error. They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.

An apostate, one who has forsaken the right way, who becomes enslaved to sin and corruption, thinks they live in freedom. They promise everyone else freedom, no doubt by telling them it does not matter how you live or what you do because you were(at one point in time) a believer.

However, we have the truth and should teach it. The truth is you cannot go on sinning deliberately and willfully. The truth is that sin can lead a believer to forsake Christ. The truth is that the Spirit of God leads us, and anyone who is not being led does not have the Spirit of God - no matter what has happened in the past.

Mat 18:7
“Woe to the world for temptations to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the one by whom the temptation comes!

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"And one is saved from a simple occurrence of believing, which is what the aorist tense indicates. Which you don't or won't see.

There is NO Scripture that says one can lose salvation. That is the Achille's heel in your theology."

No scripture for your "belief" .

Sure. Acts 16:31 - They replied, “Believe (aorist tense) in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
Rom 10:9 - If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe (aorist tense) in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Satisfied?

 

[FreeGrace]

But, there is a narrow path in which few find this kind of "belief".

Sorry, but I'm not following. What is your point?

 

[FreeGrace]

Interesting. You believe the Spirit of God lives in an apostate.

Let me be as clear as Scripture is clear about who the Holy Spirit dwells in.

Eph 1:13,14 -
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed (aorist tense), you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

All who have ever believed in a point of time are sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance.

That is plain language.

 

[FreeGrace]

I just posted you from Exegetical Fallacies why the tense is NEVER determinative of the meaning of the verse.

I never said it was. That would be silly to make such a claim.

The TENSE determines the time aspect of the verb, not the verse.

Do you disregard the tense of verbs in English?

 

[Jim Parker]

What in the world does "undue significance" mean?

AH! Therein lies the problem.
It's a bit more than is convenient to cover in this format.
You can probably get the book at Amazon.
D. A. Carson, Exegetical Fallacies, Baker Book House, 1984, ISBN 0-8010-2499-4, p. 70.

 

[Jim Parker]

The TENSE determines the time aspect of the verb, not the verse.

That's not what D. A. Carson says and, since he's an expert and we're not, I will defer to his analysis.

 

[JLB]

I said this:
"And one is saved from a simple occurrence of believing, which is what the aorist tense indicates. Which you don't or won't see.

There is NO Scripture that says one can lose salvation. That is the Achille's heel in your theology."

Sure. Acts 16:31 - They replied, “Believe (aorist tense) in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
Rom 10:9 - If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe (aorist tense) in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Satisfied?

You posted scripture for what I believe which is: The condition for a person to be saved is to believe.

Your belief is that a person is still saved if they no longer believe, having returned to unbelieving.


Please post the scripture for your belief which teaches that a person is still saved, even though the don't believe anymore.



JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

Post #99 .

John 6:64 (NKJV)
“But there are some of you who do not believe.”
For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
This verse tells us that Jesus knew of two separate types pf people:
(1) Those people (plural) who did not believe, and
(2) The one person who would betray Him.

All we can conclude is that:
(1) Jesus knew which people did not believe.
(2) Jesus knew that Judas would betray Him.
So, no, that verse does NOT in fact "prove" that Judas was "never a believer."
There is no evidence, pro or con, to indicate that when Judas first followed Jesus, he was not a believer.
And, to make your point that Judas was never a believer, that is what you have to demonstrate from scripture; that there was never a time when Judas did believe.

You have not done that.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Sorry, but I'm not following. What is your point?

The point being that the narrow path is narrow. I've said over and over again on these threads that it "seems" to me that we need to narrow our definition of what makes a born again believer. Just because someone may believe certain things about Christ, doesn't automatically make them born again.......it makes them a believer but not born again.

I disagree with people when they say a born again (given the Spirit of God) person, can lose the truth.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Oh, and a born again Spirit will always believe.

 

[JLB]

John 6:64 (NKJV)
“But there are some of you who do not believe.”
For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
This verse tells us that Jesus knew of two separate types pf people:
(1) Those people (plural) who did not believe, and
(2) The one person who would betray Him.

All we can conclude is that:
(1) Jesus knew which people did not believe.
(2) Jesus knew that Judas would betray Him.
So, no, that verse does NOT in fact "prove" that Judas was "never a believer."
There is no evidence, pro or con, to indicate that when Judas first followed Jesus, he was not a believer.
And, to make your point that Judas was never a believer, that is what you have to demonstrate from scripture; that there was never a time when Judas did believe.

You have not done that.

Amen! Good word.


Judas showed he continued to believe, because he continued to follow Him.



JLB

 

[Nathan]

Let me be as clear as Scripture is clear about who the Holy Spirit dwells in.

Eph 1:13,14 -
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed (aorist tense), you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

All who have ever believed in a point of time are sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance.

That is plain language.

You can deny all the passages you want in order to believe what you want. However, you cannot rewrite the letters we have which speak about the grave error of denial.

What is also plain is denial.

2 Peter 2
1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.
3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;
5 if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked
8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);
9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,
10 and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority. Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones,
11 whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them before the Lord.
12 But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction,
13 suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, while they feast with you.
14 They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children!
15 Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing,
16 but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet's madness.


I'm not sure I would know of anyone who would think the above description of an apostate is someone who will be in eternity with Christ. Do you believe the above mentioned will be in eternity with God?

 

[Nathan]

The point being that the narrow path is narrow. I've said over and over again on these threads that it "seems" to me that we need to narrow our definition of what makes a born again believer. Just because someone may believe certain things about Christ, doesn't automatically make them born again.......it makes them a believer but not born again.

I disagree with people when they say a born again (given the Spirit of God) person, can lose the truth.

I don't think anyone posting here believes a person can lose the truth. Deny it - yes. Walk away - yes. Foresake - yes.

James 5:19 (ESV) 19 My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back,

James 5:20 (ESV) 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

 

[Nathan]

Oh, and a born again Spirit will always believe.

Luke 8:13 (ESV)
And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.

Jesus said they believed for a while - not forever.

Notice, He did not say anything about losing, but falling away. They leave the truth because times of testing prove harder than they want.

 

[LovethroughDove]

I don't think anyone posting here believes a person can lose the truth. Deny it - yes. Walk away - yes. Foresake - yes.

James 5:19 (ESV) 19 My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back,

James 5:20 (ESV) 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Okay, let's work with this. Those who deny, forsake, or walk away may have been believers but not born of the Spirit believers.
Those people sitting in the churches. Believers? I'd say yeah, but not many born agains.

 

[Jim Parker]

Judas showed he continued to believe, because he continued to follow Him.

IMO, there is not enough information in scripture to come to the conclusion that Judas was never saved.
Would Jesus have made him an apostle if he were not sincere in his faith?
We have more questions than answers.

iakov the fool

 

[JLB]

IMO, there is not enough information in scripture to come to the conclusion that Judas was never saved.
Would Jesus have made him an apostle if he were not sincere in his faith?
We have more questions than answers.

iakov the fool

There is plenty of scripture to prove Judas was a believer... for a while.

Jesus empowered Judas to preach the Gospel to the lost, and heal the sick, raise the dead, and cleanse the lepers.

And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.
Matthew 10:1-4

He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease.

These signs follow those who believe: In My name they shall cast out devils...

And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; Mark 16:17


One would have to show me some scriptures that Jesus empowered unbelievers to preach the Gospel to the lost, and cast out devils to unbelievers, in order to prove that Judas Iscariot was an unbeliever.

Judas heard His voice, and followed Him for 3 1/2 years, then fell away by transgression.


24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” Acts 1:24-25


Judas was destined to reign with the others on one of twelve thrones in the age to come, but fell by transgression, having become a traitor.


So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28



JLB

 

[Nathan]

Okay, let's work with this. Those who deny, forsake, or walk away may have been believers but not born of the Spirit believers.
Those people sitting in the churches. Believers? I'd say yeah, but not many born agains.

Ok, I like reasoning through the Bible.

Someone cannot believe unless the Spirit shows them the truth right?

John 6:44 (ESV)
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:63 (ESV) 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

John 6:64 (ESV) 64 But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)

John 6:65 (ESV) 65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

So we see that it is the Spirit who gives a person the ability to believe.

Will the Spirit bring someone to believe, and the person believe, but then the Spirit not dwell in them?

 

[Jim Parker]

There is plenty of scripture to prove Judas was a believer... for a while.
Jesus empowered Judas to preach the Gospel to the lost, and heal the sick, raise the dead, and cleanse the lepers.
And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.
Matthew 10:1-4
He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease.
These signs follow those who believe: In My name they shall cast out devils...
And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; Mark 16:17
One would have to show me some scriptures that Jesus empowered unbelievers to preach the Gospel to the lost, and cast out devils to unbelievers, in order to prove that Judas Iscariot was an unbeliever.
Judas heard His voice, and followed Him for 3 1/2 years, then fell away by transgression.
24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” Acts 1:24-25
Judas was destined to reign with the others on one of twelve thrones in the age to come, but fell by transgression, having become a traitor.
So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

JLB

Well said.